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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: lnroberts on Tuesday 10 April 12 04:57 BST (UK)
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I'm new to this - so bear with me - but I'm a USA researcher in California attempting to find out something about my 3rd great grandfather Duncan Campbell (b. 1768- d. 1850) who came to the States in about 1795 with his wife Christian (or Christiana) and very young daughter Catharine and perhaps one son. I have been very unsuccessful in discovering his Scottish origins - not even in his naturalization papers in 1839 in Ohio. Haven't been able to locate any passenger lists. Too early. I have been corresponding with the National Archives - sent them all of my research and they have told me that they have no records that will help. I have spent hours - and pounds - plowing through the OPRs on scotlandspeople.gov - nothing looks specifically right, but I'm starting to think that Killin Parish looks like a likely place to inquire because of a similarity of names - nothing else. I'm assuming that he came over because of the clearances. Duncan was a farmer - did nothing else the whole time he was here - except to be the first Constable of Licking County, Ohio in 1814 when they were opening up that state. If anyone can give me any suggestions as to places or sites for research, I'd really appreciate it. Also - if anyone knows anything about the Campbells during that time period, that would also be helpful. Thanks so much.
Lynne
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Hi
You could try posting on this site also
http://www.killin.co.uk/gossip/forumdisplay.php/5-Family-History
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Well, as you see, I have. Do you have any other suggestions? I've exchanged emails with a variety of experts in Scotland, including the venerable David Dobson (he sent me to Black's book on Scottish surnames which has proven very helpful). However, because of the time period and the corresponding dearth of records, no one I've sought help from has been very optimistic.
Lynne
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Hi Lynne,
Many of my Campbell ancestors were christened in Killin. My direct line immigrated to Canada West - at Drummond Twp., Lanark County, Canada c. 1817. There were others which stayed behind; one went to NY State a few years earlier.
Killin saw major clearances c. 1834 when many were literally burned off their lands by the 2nd Marquis of Breadalbane, John Campbell. Refer to: http://my.tbaytel.net/bmartin/perth.htm
Other than a familiarity of names, have you found any record, since you posted your msg., which indicates Killin? Have you discovered Christian's maiden name?
Are there any county/state historical books re. Licking County, Ohio which may mention where Duncan Campbell was from (besides the generic "Highlands of Scotland" line)? Obituaries of his children which may mention a place name from where their parents came from?
I'll be glad to share with you what I have. The names of Duncan and Christian (female) were used many times over in my lineage.
Regards,
Kate
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I have a number of Campbell and McDonald ancestors in the parish of Killin. I will take a look. In the meantime you might be interested in this string.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,567540.0.html
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Inroberts-
It seems to me that you need to explore resources in Ohio to establish the origins of your Campbells. I have done this with my Sprague and McDonald ancestors who were among the first settlers in what we know as the Firelands of Ohio. Here are some resources I have found useful:
History of the Fire Lands, Comprising Huron & Erie Counties, Ohio 1809 - 1879 by W. W. Williams.
Firelands Pioneer [compilations of narratives regarding the earliest settlers of Ohio]
Sprague Project Database [a website that provides research notes and sources for the genealogy I have recorded]
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You will find an obiturary index at:
http://index.rbhayes.org/hayes/index/
You will have to pay a nominal fee for the results of your search, but if you have correctly identified your ancestor, the results can be priceless!
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My Campbell left in 1795 - in the National Archives in Edinburgh I found letters to the Earl of Breadalbane from Peter Campbell (Duncan's son) about his son Duncan and his anger that the Earl was not providing son Duncan with the croft that had been promised him for serving in the Earl's militia. The time frame was right - and although I would never suggest that this is my family, I suspect that this is the kind of thing that pushed him to load up his wife and child (children?) and head for the States in 1795. I have checked every single records regarding him that I can find - including naturalization papers - and I have never found any suggestion of where in Scotland he came from. However, I got lots of help from very knowledgeable researchers in Edinburgh and they agree with me that the similarity of family names and the time period seems to lend itself to Killin, Perthshire. And we did find Kiders in Angus - don't know anything about them, but contrary to everything I had heard previous - there WERE Kiders in Scotland in the 18th century!! Researching in the National Archives was such a treat - hope to have the pleasure again - but I'm not going back unless I learn more about this family. I stayed in the Kenmore Hotel (est 1572!!) very close to Killin and it was a real pleasure to see the beautiful country that my ancestors called home. I can see why they settled where they did - same woods, rolling hills and green green terrain - in Ohio.
Lynne
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This is one record you may want to check out. Comrie is about 15 miles from Killen.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X1NX-18Z
Name: Cathrine Campbell
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Sep 1794
Baptism/Christening Place: COMRIE,PERTH,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Duncan Campbell
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11341-4
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 1040075
Reference Number:
Collection: Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
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I saw that - in fact I asked someone from Killin who was helping me to tell me where Comrie was. That is exactly the kind of record that I could not specifically tie into my Campbell family - but was so very close, could easily have been "my Catherine" - the dates are certainly right. If I can't locate any other locally held records, I'm probably at the end of my research road. I'm also digging on - looking for any surviving relatives of the family who might have family records. But I think I've tapped everything possible at this time at the Archives - and I KNOW I've really covered the OPR's.
I really do appreciate all your suggestions - it continues to be so helpful to "chat" with other knowledgeable researchers like you all - especially people who really understand the ins and outs of Scottish history and research. Every time I get one, it sends me back to re-look at my records and re-evaluate my assumptions. I think now I'm going back to re-look at Pennsylvania records. I know they stayed in Pennsylvania before they settled down in Ohio - but as with Scotland - I don't know where they were. Lots of Scotch-Irish in Pennsylvania - not so many Scots. And one historian stated that Scots tended to stay in well-developed areas and didn't adventure into the frontier like the Scotch-Irish did. However, Duncan Campbell, Scotsman, followed the frontier (was the first constable of his Licking county, Ohio township) as did his son, Peter. Anyway - the search goes on - and thanks again -
Lynne
http://www.lynnesgenealogy.com
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Do not despair. NEVER SURRENDER! Emerging technology may provide the answer. I found reams of information when Google Books became available. Sadly, it is no longer as open and accessible as it was in the beginning. Of course, the job is easier when you google a name like Balthazar Pistorius. Campbells are pretty thick on the ground!
I am a descendant of Isabel Campbell, my 5th great grandmother, of whom I know her parents and siblings to be:
Husband: Duncan Campbell Of Easter Lix, Perthshire, Scotland
Chr. 12 Mar 1715 Killin, Perthshire, Scotland
Husband's father: Patricke Campbell
Husband's mother: Jean or Catherine ncKnab
Wife: Isabel Carmichell Chr. 27 Apr 1717 Killin, Perthshire, Scotland
Wife's father: John Carmichell
Wife's mother: Margrat Stewart
Children
Jannet Campbell 13 Nov 1732 Killin, Perth, Scotland
Charles Campbell 17 Jan 1735 Killin, Perth, Scotland
Patrick Campbell 20 Jan 1736 Killin, Perth, Scotland
Isabell Campbell 3 Jul 1737 Killin, Perth, Scotland Residing 1754 Kenmore
Spouse Patrick Campbell -Married 18 May 1754 Kenmore, Perth, Scotland
Duncan Campbell 7 Oct 1739 Killin, Perth, Scotland
Jannet Campbell 3 Jul 1741 Killin, Perth, Scotland
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Now that's really interesting. Where the heck is Easter Lix? I'll have to check all of my maps. All the names coincide with my family. No James - no Colin - and I found out that Patrick and Peter are interchanged?? Someone told me that at the Scottish Genealogical Society in Edinburgh. Floored me. The 'children' in your family would coincide with the generation of parents to my Duncan/Christian. I was interested to see that Isabell Campell married Patrick Campbell 1754. My Duncan b. 1768 - son named Peter, daughter Isabella. The Peter Campbell letters that I found in the Archives would have coincided with this generation, too.
Don't worry - I'm not giving up. But I'm old, and I know that there's more than one way to skin a cat - so if I have no luck in Scotland right now, I'll find something else. Don't know what, but I'll keep looking. Thanks for the information about your family. I've copied it and it's in my file now.
Lynne
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Easter Lix, Middle Lix, and Wester Lix are located southwest of Killen. Duncan Campbell of Easter Lix appears on "Statistics of the Annexed Estates, 1755-1756" as one of the tenants who was forced off the land of the estate forfeited by the Jacobite, James Drummond, 4th Earl of Perth.
Plan of Lix, Part of The Perth Estate
Organisation The National Archives of Scotland
Site ID RHP3490
Date 1755
Description 'A Plan and survey of Lix ... part of the Estate of Perth'. By William Cockburn
[1:8900] 1 in = 10 Scottish chains 46 x 65 cm
Farm plan of Middle, Wester and Easter Lix coloured to show farm boundaries. Steadings, yards, road and new bridge noted. Table of contents giving acreages of meadow, arable, moor, and moor on the hill. Ornamental title. Relief by grey wash.
Access No digital image for this item is available. To view this item, please contact the NAS quoting the Site ID for this item.
Archival History: Exchequer Records: Forfeited Estates 1745: Particular Management: Perth Estate, Perth County (E777)
Co-ordinates: 56.4279N, 4.5489W
Extracts of Statistics from the Annexed Estates for Western Strathearn - 1755-56
EXTRACTS OF STATISTICS FROM THE ANNEXED ESTATES OF PERTH FOR WESTERN STRATHEARN - 1755 - 1756
At this sad time we are fortunate the Commissioners of the Forfeited Estates recorded also the names of the people who lived on the sequestered lands of the Earl of Perth, and this record is invaluable. Not only were the names recorded but also a listing of those under 10, between 10 and 17, and above 17 years of age, divided by sex, as well as in the following categories: number who spoke the English language, number of those who spin, their stock sub-divided into horses, black cattle, sheep, swine, goats, number of acres in tillage, number of acres in hay, pecks sown divided between flax seed and potatoes, total rent in Sterling money, including the different Articles which the rent is composed, computing the conversion in pounds, shillings and pence. It can be construed as one of the earliest censuses in Great Britain! Add to this all those people in other areas under control of the Earl such as the barony of Lix, the barony of Ballquhidder, the barony of Auchterarder, the barony of Kinbuck, the barony of Callendar, the barony of Strathgartney and the barony of Stobhall - all lying outwith our story, and it is evident that the Earl held sway over thousands of honest, hard working folk. All were beholden to the noble Earl for their liveliehood, income, security, prospects et al. If the noble Earl had wished it in years gone past he could have hanged them, banished or evicted them, branded them and made them fight and die for him. It is also evident that there were some considerably high costs related to being a tenant of the said noble Earl. This configuration was, of course, similar to all the belted Earls, landed gentry and estate owners in Scotland and most of Great Britain
Lix Stirling --
A location in Stirling Council Area, Lix comprises the scattered settlements of Wester Lix, Mid Lix, Easter Lix and Lix Toll which lies at the junction of the A 85 road from Glen Ogle to Crianlarich and the A 827 road to Killin and Loch Tay. Early clachan settlements here were excavated in the 1960s by Horace Fairhurst of the University of Glasgow.
"At the Core of History" by James Irvine Robertson published in Scotland Magazine relates the following: "The 4th Lord Drummond was created Earl of Perth in 1605. His son, the 2nd Earl, fought with the pro-Royalist army of the 1st Marquis of Montrose. James Drummond, 4th Earl of Perth, became Lord High Chancellor of Scotland in 1684 and converted to Catholicism on the accession of the Catholic James VII of Scotland and II of England. His brother, Lord Melfort was Secretary of State.
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When I first encountered the concept of interchangeable forenames it was the case of an individual who had been recorded in documents as Donald or Daniel Campbell. The two names do not sound to be a close phonetic match, but the reality for the population of the highlands and islands was that Gaelic was the tongue one learned at the mother's breast and the English or "Braid Scots" that is found in parish and official records is an irregular approximation of the native speach that has been interpreted or transliterated by a minister or clerk who may have little or no knowledge of the Gaelic. The following is a rare instance in which the minister is a published scholar of the Gaelic language.
"Donald Campbell lawful son to James Campbell sawyer residing in the said parish and Christian Forbes his Spouse and Baptized on the seventeenth day of August the said year by the Reverend Duncan McFarlane minister of the Gaelic Chapel in Perth. West Church parish Perth the 3rd day of August one thousand eight hundred twenty-three was born."
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I was clued in about the Gaelic - spent some time with Irish friends after I left Scotland and she, who is a fairly fluent Irish-speaker, explained some of it to me. But the wonderful staff at the SGS really filled me in on the names business.
I had been thinking that my family had been located more in the Breadalbane territory - I don't want to limit myself, but that's where any interesting material seems to send me. My next research project is to locate information about the fencibles under Breadalbane - who was enlisted and where they served.
Where are you located - are you in the UK?
Lynne
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Hope you dont mind me leapfrogging into this conversation but I am looking for an Angus Cambell from Killin, born abt 1821 and his fathers name was Hugh. Angus is on the 1841 census serving in the 96th regminent in Bolton on Le moors in England. Trying to break into Scottish genealogy isnt proving easy.any help would be great.
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I am interested in this thread. I believe my ancestor, Robert Halliday (Haliday, Holiday) was baptized in Killin in 1781. I don't have a copy of that record, only of his brother Archibald, baptized in 1786. It reads: Thomas Haliday and Anne Campbell, Clifton, had their lawful son bap. called Archibald. (Clifton was a village within the Parish of Killin whose industry was mining iron-ore, so there is a good chance that Thomas was a miner - Robert, certainly, was a coal miner.).
I don't know if Thomas Haliday was a native of Killin but perhaps Anne Campbell was? On the same page as Archibald's bap. record is that of twins Colin and Jean, children of James Campbell and Katharine Robertson, baptized on November 6th, 1786.(Record reads: "Novr 6th Jas. Campbell & Kat. Robertson, Monimore (aka Monemore) had their lawful twins bap. called Colin & Jean")
So I am looking to find out more about the Haliday and Campbell families of this time. Both Robert and Archibald left Perth for Lanarkshire (perhaps their parents did as well?) where they married and later died.
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Hope you dont mind me leapfrogging into this conversation but I am looking for an Angus Cambell from Killin, born abt 1821 and his fathers name was Hugh. Angus is on the 1841 census serving in the 96th regminent in Bolton on Le moors in England. Trying to break into Scottish genealogy isnt proving easy.any help would be great.
Do you have Angus' childrens names along with his wife's name?
There are at least two Hugh's that could possibly be Angus father. There was a Hugh Campbell and Christian McNaughton married 1804 and residing at Suie. There is a Hugh Campbell and Ann Dewar married 1814 and residing at Craignavie.
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My Campbell left in 1795 - in the National Archives in Edinburgh I found letters to the Earl of Breadalbane from Peter Campbell (Duncan's son) about his son Duncan and his anger that the Earl was not providing son Duncan with the croft that had been promised him for serving in the Earl's militia. The time frame was right - and although I would never suggest that this is my family, I suspect that this is the kind of thing that pushed him to load up his wife and child (children?) and head for the States in 1795. I have checked every single records regarding him that I can find - including naturalization papers - and I have never found any suggestion of where in Scotland he came from. However, I got lots of help from very knowledgeable researchers in Edinburgh and they agree with me that the similarity of family names and the time period seems to lend itself to Killin, Perthshire. And we did find Kiders in Angus - don't know anything about them, but contrary to everything I had heard previous - there WERE Kiders in Scotland in the 18th century!! Researching in the National Archives was such a treat - hope to have the pleasure again - but I'm not going back unless I learn more about this family. I stayed in the Kenmore Hotel (est 1572!!) very close to Killin and it was a real pleasure to see the beautiful country that my ancestors called home. I can see why they settled where they did - same woods, rolling hills and green green terrain - in Ohio.
Lynne
Use the following map to locate place names as it has the parish boundaries as reflected in records (here is Lix):
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=56.43952&lon=-4.35476&layers=5&b=1 (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=56.43952&lon=-4.35476&layers=5&b=1)
I have broken down the place names for Killin here:
https://www.mckercher.org/Places?locale=Killin (https://www.mckercher.org/Places?locale=Killin)
The birth date on Duncan Campbell's tombstone is roughly the same as that of the birth of a Duncan May 2nd 1768 to a Duncan Campbell & Elizabeth Malloch who were residing at Crannigh/Crannich for his birth on the north shore Loch Tay in what is Kenmore today. They were previously residing in Moirlanich, Killin (previously Kenmore) for the births of earlier children.
Be aware that there were Campbells alias McIllehuaish residing in Crannich. There is either a separate Duncan or the same Duncan married to an Ann Malloch at Carie (in Crannich area). He was a Soldier in the Edinburgh city guard.
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And we did find Kiders in Angus - don't know anything about them, but contrary to everything I had heard previous - there WERE Kiders in Scotland in the 18th century!!
That is very interesting, because a general search for Kider on Scotland's People produces just one result, in 1861. A search for Kidder produces 45, of which two are in the 17th and two in the 18th century.
The National Records of Scotland has one reference to Kider, in 1611, and two to Kidder, one in 1812 and one in 1938.
I'd be very interested to know where you found references to Kiders in Angus in the 18th century?
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If the letter you referred to was a petition from your Duncan's father Peter (in which case Duncan's son will also have been called Peter if he was the eldest son as per the Scottish naming pattern) then the closest family to Killin would be Patrick and Elizabeth Campbell who had their son Duncan baptised in Comrie on 4 Feb 1769. The younger brother of Duncan was John. However there is another candidate baptised the same year at Comrie to parents John and Catherine!
There are 6 other possibilities in Perthshire. As already suggested, histories of the area where he settled may give you valuable clues. People tended to settle near folkvfrom the same area back home.
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TropiConsul, Isabell is my 5th great grandmother too...we are cousins!
Cornelia