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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: geoffreyhyoung on Saturday 05 May 12 15:12 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help please? I have a presbyterian ancestor from the Berwick area who I am stuck on. Robert Young was living at East Ord in the census's for Northumberland with his wife Ann. They both appear to have been born in the mid 1790s but I cannot find their birth or marriage. I have found baptism of some of their children at Spittal presbyterian but nothing about them.
I understand that Presbyterian marriages were held at Lamberton toll in the Berwick area and wondered if anyone has access to the records and could look to see if their marriage is recorded. I would imagine it would be around the mid 1810s as his first child seems to have been born in 1819. Any help would be gratefully received!
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It wasn't just Presbyterians who married there - Lamberton Toll (and Coldstream Bridge) were the east coast equivalent to Gretna Green.
Presbyterians used them (or travelled into Scotland) to avoid the legal requirement in England to marry in the Church of England.
Unfortunately records do not survive though there are some newspaper announcements which are held by Northumberland Archives.
Christine
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As lamberton toll is in Berwickshire Scotland, might be a idea to search the berwickshire records for the marriage - not everyone how married there has eloped over the borders form England. If they were ag lab it could have been for work, etc.
As Young is a local old gypsie name try the neighbouring county Roxburghshire too, especially around Yetholm area.
Also just a hunce but Ann 's maiden name Hay - check the middle name of their children especially an elder son
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Thanks for your interesting comments. Robert is recorded as being an agricultural labourer in the census returns so I will have a look. :)
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Trees dont seem to have the 1841 and it look like Robert was away from Home;
(you may have this though)
1841 Census
East Ord,
Tweedmouth, Durham
HO107/318/10/Tweedmouth
Ann YOUNG, 45, Fishermans Wife? (crossed through)
Andrew, 15, Iron Founders Apprentice
Margaret, 15
Roger, 12
Ann, 9
Sarah, 3
If you can find the Birth Reg of Sarah and purchase the Cert it will have her Mothers maiden name.
Jane Douglas Young 1819 and Roger Hay Young 1829 might point to Anns maiden name.
But then again it may be either Roberts/Anns Mothers maiden names also.
Trish :)
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There are 2 possible Marriages on Familysearch.Org;
Robert YOUNG;
13 Sept 1818, Christchurch, Tynemouth, Northumberland to Ann CANLISH
25 November 1818, Same details, to Ann MORTON
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With regards to middle name there is a general rule in the Scotland and North of England the mother Maiden/father surname is generally given the a son and the mother or father's mother's maiden name to a daugther.
so it might to worth checking out for example Roger Hay and Jane Douglas or Robert Young and Jane Douglas.
Also I had look at the IGI and there could have been two sons called Robert one born 1813 born Birdhope Craig Northumberland and another later, worth a look
Also Robert Young (1795) and Ann (1794) were still alive in 1881
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Hi geoffreyhyoung
I also have an interest in this YOUNG family, though not much further forward (or backward!) as yourself.
My connection is through son Andrew.
Andrew's marriage was recorded in the Berwick Advertiser as follows:
Date of newspaper 3 Jan 1852
Place of Marriage Lamberton Toll
Date of Marriage 31st ult
Mr Andrew YOUNG of East Ord to Jane, 4th dtr of Adam BELL, of East Ord
Daughter Margaret's marriage is also recorded as follows:
Date of Newspaper 12 Dec 1846
Place of Marriage Lamberton Toll
Date of Marriage 4th inst
John WILLIAMSON, iron founder, of Tweedmouth to Margaret, 2nd dtr of Mr Robert YOUNG of East Ord
There is no record of a marriage for Robert YOUNG and Ann in the Irregular Border Marriages Volume II.
The 1861 Census for East Ord has Andrew's wife Jane and their 3 children visiting Robert YOUNG and Ann.
I've not been able to trace any children as yet before son Andrew, but from Margaret's marriage entry there appears to have been at least an older daughter.
Robert names Scremerston as his birthplace on 3 Census entries, but I've not had a chance to look into this in depth.
Regards
Helen K
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A huge thanks to the three of you for your comments and obsevations and they are greatly appreciated as they help me to understand the complex problems of non conformist border ancestors!
trish I have looked at the Tynemouth marriages and it was in that area that his son Andrew ended up as well as his grandchildrens birth. i have always assumed this was purely work related but maybe there was some family connection in the area? Also Noted is Roberts absence in the 1841 census as is Andrews birth so maybe there is family over the border?
terianne I have been looking at possible middle name connections for Annes maiden name but grandmothers maiden name is interesting. Hadnt thought of that. i did notice a Jane Douglas baptised at Spittal fairly close to Jane so maybe a connection there?
Helen K the fact that at least two children of Robert were married at Lamberton possibly indicates that he was also probably also married there. I understand that there are records up to 1816 for marriages there but i think that they were probably married around 1818. There is a daughter recorded as baptised at spittal in 1819 named Jane Douglas but as there is a Douglas baptised immediately before in the register the Douglas may be a mistake? Also no record of Andrew or Roberts birth so maybe in Scotland?
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I've also read your previous post about this YOUNG family. Which of Robert and Ann YOUNG's children do you have an interest in?
I have a lot of information regarding son Andrew and his family if that's of any help to you.
Regards
Helen K
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Thanks for your message Helen. i would be interested in any info about Roberts children including Andrew you may have. I really am beginning to think that they had family over the border which may account for absences for Robert and Andrew in birth records and Roberts absence in the 1841 census.
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Hi geoff
The fact that fisherman's wife was recorded and then crossed out beside wife Ann's name in the 1841 Census makes me believe that at that time Robert was in fact a fisherman and away at sea.
I have several families of fishermen who changed to land-based occupations in their later years.
Andrew's baptism is my priority at present. It really doesn't make sense that all other YOUNG children's births or baptisms were recorded at Spittal, but no Andrew YOUNG. Several possibilities spring to mind for this.
Baptised elsewhere?
Baptised later than birth year?
Not baptised at all?
Surname not YOUNG at birth?
Surname YOUNG recorded wrongly
It's a puzzler! Stranger still for me is that this Andrew also had a son named Andrew. I've not yet found his birth, baptism or 1st marriage, but have details for all the other children!!! History repeating itself?
I'm still keen to know which child of Robert and Ann YOUNG interests you.
Regards
Helen K
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Hi Helen,
I know what you mean. It can get frustrating. My interest is in Andrew, then his son Andrew and his son Robert who was my dads father. Amonst my dads siblings there was no Andrew but there was one in my generation, my cousin so the name was obviosly a family one from an early time.
Have you seen Andrew's will of 1892. he left around £138.
I still have an idea that there was family over the border but not sure how to check on this. Also apparently Northumberlands records have alot of events for Spittal presbyterian which are not in the IGI index. Maybe Andrew is there?
I am not sure if recording Ann as a fishermans wife wasn't just an error by the recorder as there were alot of fishermen in Ord. There was a Matthew Young recorded as a fisherman. Not sure if this was in the 1841 or51 census.
Kind Regards
Geoff
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Just because their a fisherman, it doesn't mean they were at sea. he could have been a River Fisherman. there was many fishermen and boathouses right along the River Tweed on both sides of the River/Border. Robert could have been fishing on the river when the census was done not necessarity at sea.
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A family tree on the net (Clan Moffatt) has Ann being Ann Moffatt. While it gives no evidence for this, there are some coincidences.
A baptism at Tweedmouth, Dec 19 1793. Ann daughter of Roger and Ann Moffatt of East Ord.
Other children of Roger and Ann Moffatt include Jane Douglas Moffatt, baptized Tweedmouth 29 May 1785, of East Ord. Also Roger Moffitt, baptized Berwick on Tweed, 8 April 1777.
A Roger Moffatt and his wife Elizabeth, of East Ord, are having children baptized at Spittal Presbyterian in the same time frame as Robert and Ann Youngs children. Includes two daughters named Jane Douglas Moffatt in1816 and 1817. Robert and Ann have a daughter named Jane Douglas Young baptized in 1819.
Also claims that Ann Young (daughter of Robert Young and Ann Moffatt) married Robert Moffatt, June 1860, Berwick on Tweed. This Robert Moffatt was grandson of Roger and Ann Moffatt, by their son Robert Cashel Moffatt.
All a bit flimsy, but something to work on.
Alan.
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Thanks Alan, i will check those records. I just wonder if families who were Presbyterian and then of Scottish ilk would have had religious ceremonies in the Anglican church? But alot of what you have said does link in about the Douglas name. I have also seen a Jane Douglas baptised aroung 1817 at Spittal. I know from family in staithes yorkshire that intermarriage amongst local families was rife until the late C19th when travel became more accessible. I will have a look at the instances you have said and get back to you. Thanks greatly for your input as I have been really frustrated by this for years. keep coming back to it and now realise I must think a bit more laterally!
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terianne, I know that most fishermen in the Tweedmouth area would have fished from salmon cobles in the estuary and river and not offshore. Inshore fishing on our coast is a bit of an area of expertise of mine! which is why i was surprised that there were so many fishermen recorded and not Robert if he was one. I still think away in scotland is a possibility.
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Besides Spittal does anyone know the other Prebyterian chapels in the vicinty which people may have used?
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The nearest one I can see on genuki which covers the dates you need is in Norham.
http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Norham/ChurchRecords.html
Christine
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thanks Christine
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The nearest Presbyterian church to East Ord would have been Tweedmouth. Unfortunately all the early records of this church have been lost.
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What year are they from? I think the IGI index is from 1750ish but I am led to understand there are quite alot of baptisms in the records not in the IGI
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The only available Presbyterian registers for Tweedmouth are from about 1900. As far as I know there is nothing at all for earlier dates, apart from deaths and marriages in the Parish Church registers.
Many Tweedmouth families crossed the bridge into Berwick to Presbyterian churches in the town. It may be worth your while having a look, but I cannot see any references to your Young family in Ord.
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I had a quick scout around a few Presbyterian records while I was at the archives yesterday. I did find one Robert Young in Norham but baptised 1772 he’s a bit earlier than the one you are looking for.
What I did find, and have not noticed before, was that some churches had listed the marriages of their congregation even though they were not married in that church. Several Scottish places appeared regularly as venues and it might help you in your search for the marriage. They were Ladykirk, Coldstream, Upsettlington, Swinton, Dunse (Duns) and Lamerton (Lamberton).
Christine
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Thanks Christine, I will have a look on Scotlands people site. By the way has anyone had any problems accessing Bishops Transcripts images on Family Search?