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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: lazydaisy on Sunday 20 May 12 15:29 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me find a marriage & death dates for the above, who are my great great grandparents please?
This is what I know so far:
I have a birth cert for Elizabeth Herbert (my gret great Aunt) born 19 Aug 1861 in Pontlottyn to John Herbert and Elizabeth Herbert formerly Jenkins.
I have a birth cert for Martha Ann Herbert (my great great grandmother) born 20 March 1865 Heol Evan Wynne Pontlottyn to John Herbert and Elizabeth Herbert formerly Jenkins.
I cant find the parents on 1861 census or any prior to this date. Nor can I find a marriage for them.
In the 1871 census, I find Martha Ann Herbert aged 6 living with her mother at Union St Brithdir Gelligaer. Mother Elizabeth is described as wife, this is then crossed out and Head inserted. Her occupation is domestic wife age 45 and born in Pembrokeshire.
In the 1871 census, John Herbert is recorded as living at Deri Gelligaer with his daughter Elizabeth as a boarder in the Roberts household . John is described married, occupation coal miner, born Bedwellty. daughter Elizabeth is 9 and is also a boarder in the Roberts household.
I can only find Martha Ann Herbert on the 1881 census. This time, she is living in Maesycwmur. She is 16 and is described as a niece to the head of the household Martha Evans* (age 46, born Pembrokeshire) whose son Joseph Symons (age 24 born Merthyr) also lives there. Martha Ann Herbert occupation is servant.
(*wondered if this Martha Evans was a sister of Elizabeth Jenkins but I have not found a connection)
In March 1887, Martha Ann Herbert marries William Bevan. I have a copy of the marriage cert. Martha Ann Herbert is 23 and lives at Cwm Taf Fawr Vaynor. Her Father, John Herbert is recorded as deceased. The marriage is witness by Richard and Elizabeth Jones - I was wondering if this Elzabeth was Martha Ann Herberts sister but cant find an Elizabeth Herbert marrying a Richard Jones.
If anyone out there in RC land can help, I would be much obliged
Many thanks
Diane
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Just to clarify Martha Ann Herbert is my GREAT grandmother, not great great as stated above.
Sorry for any confusion caused
D
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There is a John Herbert/Elizabeth Jenkins marriage in Merthyr T in 1867 (of course there is another groom and bride on the same page). I know it is after the girls were born but worth considering maybe.
Have you traced Martha Evans backwards to find out her maiden name? I haven't got any acccess to censuses at the moment so I can't really help you but I would think finding out how she was connected would be the best option.
Also what birth dates do you have for John and Elizabeth from the censuses?
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Hello Hazel17
Thanks for your reply and suggestions
According to the 1871 census Elizabeth (Jenkins) Herbert was 45 so this would put her date of birth around 1826. John Herbert was 50 so may have been born around 1821.
I have looked at Martha Evans previously. Will look up my notes as cant remember off the top of my head what I uncovered - but think that no connection was found with her and Elizabeth Jenkins. I will post again on this.
By the way. would the description 'niece' have a different meaning from now a days ? where we take it to mean the daughter of a sibling?
As John Herbert and Elizabeth Jenkins seemed to have children quite late on, it is not out of the question that they married after the children were born. I will order the cert.
I seem to remember finding a John Herbert & Elizabeth Jenkins marrying in the early 1850's and sent off for the cert. However although they appeared on the same page, they married different people. The GRO kindly pointed this out and didnt send the cert- so that saved £9.25.
Will now go and look up my notes and report back what I find about Martha Evans.
Thanks again
Diane
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Even if you can't find a connection between Martha and Elizabeth, Martha could have been related to John or it could be that Martha's husband could have been related to Elizabeth or John. Niece had the same meaning so I would kepe persuing Martha as I suspect she is related somehpow. Keep an eye out for more unusual connections such as great aunt, cousins etc as well as niece - I can't see she would use the term niece if they weren't related at all.
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Possible death
Deaths Sep 1875
HERBERT John age 53 Merthyr T. 11a 207
Sub-districts : Aberdare, Gelligaer, Lower Merthyr Tydfil, Merthyr Tydfil, Upper Merthyr Tydfil.
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Hi Hazel
So, back to the 1881 census for Martha Ann Herbert listed as niece in Martha Evans Household.
Joseph Symons (son of Martha Evans) aged 24 born Merthyr.
I think I may have found him in the 1861 census.
Father George Symonds 32 years old, carpenter born Goodrich Herefordshire
Mother Martha Symonds 27 years old, born Trevena (?) Pembrokeshire
Joseph Symonds 4 years old born Merthyr
I looked for a marriage for George Symonds & found a possible with a Martha GRONOW in 1854 in Abergavenny.
I still cant link Martha Gronow/Symonds/Evans with Elizabeth Jenkins
Presumably, George Symonds passed away - then Martha Symonds married a Mr Evans.
I have tried all variations of spelling of the surname Symonds
Just been looking at another site & see that there is a tree that goes back as far as George Symonds so I will email the owner and compare notes.
Will let you know how I get on.
Thanks again
Diane
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Hi Wilcoxon
Yes, that entry interests me, I beleive a relation may have ordered the cert. I will contact and see if it sheds any light.
Thanks
Diane
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This doesn`t shed a lot of light, Martha seems to have knocked a bit off her age, but it is struck through so may be 36.
1871 Swansea
Martha Evans 30 head widow tailoress b St Davids Pembroke
Joseph Simmonds 14 son errand boy b Merthyr Glamorganshire
Thos C Jones 26 boarder
Mary Fisher 49 boarder
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Wow!
That is very intriguing. Thank you very much Wilcoxon .have to think about this but will pass this on to the family who have a tree on another site with some of the samr names in it.
Am wondering now just how many ways of spelling Symonds there are
Thanks again
Diane
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Going back to the 1881 census for Martha, she now has a different status. b Pembrokeshire , in 1871 she was a widow and an Evans.
Martha Evans marr 46, wife of a mariner,
Joseph Symons 26 b Merthyr Glamorganshire
Martha Herbert 16 neice b Pontlottyn Glamorganshire
By 1891 Joseph has married Abigail, they have 3 sons, and are living with various relations in Pontypridd,
Marriages Dec 1883 SYMONS Joseph / Gamlin Abigail
Joseph Symons 32
Abigail Symons 28
William George Symons 6
Frederick John Symons 3
Albert Victor Symons 8/12
1901 the family are still in Pontypridd,
Joseph Symons 42 coalminer
Abigail Symons 38
William G Symons 17
Frederick J Symons 14
Olwen Symons 5
Hetty Symons 1
Information removed
There is another record, but I can`t access it. It may be the son aged 9.
Joseph Gronow Symons , Florida Death Index, 1877-1998
I know we`re still stuck with the Herberts, but at least we know about Joseph Symons ;)
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I have found a family with a photo of Joseph Gronow Symonds b 1856 on Ancestry.
Also some info on Martha Evans which is submitted by the tree owner.
Martha Gronow Evans
B:abt 1841 in Dyfed, Pembrokeshire,
1851 Carmel House St Dogmaels
Jane Evans head widow 39 proprieter of houses b Llafihangel Pembrokeshire
Mary Evans 14 dau b Penrith
John Evans 12 "
Martha Evans 10 "
Possibly living in Penrith in 1841. All born in county
Penrallt.
Thomas Evans 32 farmer
Jane Evans 30
William Evans 8
David Evans 6
Mary Evans 4
John Evans 2
Still just a mystery. :)
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Another family tree on Ancestry, this has only the births of their children and the 1871 census you already have with Martha and Elizabeth.
John Herbert
B: 1822 Bedwelty Monmouthshire
D: 14 August 1875 Gelligaer, Glamorgan, Wales
Elizabeth Jenkins
B: 1826 Trefin, Pembrokeshire, Wales
D: 1880 Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
I would check Free BMD for death of Elizabeth Herbert , the ages are not right.
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Hi Wilcoxon
You have been very busy. Thank you so much for all your input. I think we have probably arrived at the same place at more or less the same time.
It is really good of you to be spending time on this
I am sending you a PM
Thanks
Diane
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I have just been contacted by the tree owner on ANother site re possible relationship between Martha Gronow/Symons/Evans and Elizabeth Jenkins & Martha Ann Herbert.
The tree owner thinks there is some connection but like the rest of us - hasnt a clue what it may be ???
Time to put my thinking cap back on!
Diane
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http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=6100
BEAUFORT, a village in Aberystruth parish, Monmouth; and a chapelry in Aberystruth and Bedwelty parishes
I may have found John Herbert in 1861, this does seem to close enough to Bedwellty, where he says he was born in 1871. There is 4 years out in the age though.
In 1861 High St, Brithdir , Gelligaer. (District 3 image 45)
John Herbert unm 36 lodger, miner b Beaufort Monmouthshire
1871 Deri Gelligaer
John Herbert boarder 50 miner b Bedwellty Monmouthshire.
There are a lot of Jenkins in Gelligaer in 1861 , but no Elizabeth. ???
I can`t seem to find Elizabeth and Martha Ann in 1871, are the names spelt exactly that way.
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Hi Wilcoxon
Elizabeth and Martha Ann Herbert were recoded in 1871 census as living at Union St Brithdir. Elizabeth is 45 years old, described as wife - this is then crossed out and 'head' inserted - place of birth is Pembrokeshire.
Martha Ann is daughter 5 years old & born Gelligaer. (Ref No R.G.10/5387).
Agree with you on 1871 census for John Herbert plus the elder daughter Elizabeth Herbert (B.1861) lives with him also as a boarder.
The 1861 entry you found is interesting - could well be John Herbert
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Going back to Martha Gronow/Symonds/Evans .... Gronow was her maiden name, she then married George Symonds and was presumably widowed, then married Mr Evans (first name not known yet)
Under which surname would her marriage to Mr Evans be registered? would I look for Gronow or Symonds in the BMD registers? ::)
Thanks
Diane
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I have today received a copy of a marriage cert for John Herbert age 42 bachelor & Elizabeth Jenkins age 38 spinster. These ones married in the Parish Church of Gelligaer on 2 September 1867. Both were living in Pontlottyn at the time.
As the children of my John Herbert & Elizabeth Jenkins were born in Pontlottyn ( Elizabeth Herbert 1861 and Martha Ann Herbert 1865) - it is likely this marriage cert belongs to my John & Elizabeth. :)
The cert records that John's father was a shepherd - deceased & Elizabeth's father was a sailor - deceased.
The witnesses to the marriage were William Davies & Stephen Jenkins. So, some more lines of enquiry open up!
I am currently awaiting a copy of the marriage cert for Martha Gronow (who may possibly be a sister of Elizabeth Jenkins) & George Symonds. Will post again when I receive it.
In the meantime a big thank you to Hazel17 for finding the Herbert/jenkins marriage in 1867 & to Wilcoxon for all his help along the way
Regards
Diane
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Are the fathers named ?
I don`t know if this is linked.
1861 Vessels Pembrokeshire.
Stephen Jenkins marr 35 mate b Dinas Pembrokeshire.
1851 Bedwellty - lodging with a Price family
221 New Colliers Row,
Stephen Jenkins un 25 collier b Dinas
1841 Llanfyrnach Pembrokeshire
Bankyportis ??? No 5
Rachel Jenkin 55 ind , b Y
Stephen Jenkin 15 b Y
OR
1841 Fishguard Pembrokeshire
Dyffyn B
David Davies 15 MS ( male servant ) Y
Stephen Jenkin 15 MS Y
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Something else to think about --- maybe ?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Dinas/
ELIZABETH JENKINS
Christening: 27 JUL 1828 Fishguard, Pembroke, Wales
Father: DAVID JENKINS Mother: RACHEL
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Hi Wilcoxon
Mmmmm ... dont know what to think about this, as the father of Elizabeth on the baptism is david and the one on the marriage cert is Thomas
Thanks for you suggestion
Regards
Diane
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this looks interesting! 1841, address looks something like Ffynnonty, Dinas
Mary Gronow 29
Mary Jenkin 45
Elizth Jenkin 11
Thos Jenkin 8
Jane Jenkin 5
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Very interesting ;) and there is also a Stephen that could be the witness .
Family Search
STEPHEN JINKIN Christening: 29 JUL 1826 Rhosycaerau Independent, Saint Nicholas, Pembroke, Wales
Father: THOMAS JINKIN Mother: MARY. SUBMITTED ENTRY
ELIZABETH JENKIN Christening: 12 FEB 1831 Rhosycaerau Independent, Saint Nicholas, Pembroke, Wales Batch No.: C086871
Father: THOMAS JENKIN Family
Mother: MARY
THOMAS JENKIN Birth: 14 APR 1833 Batch No C087011
Christening: 03 JUN 1833 Ebenezer Independent, Newport, Pembroke, Wales
Father: THOMAS JENKIN Mother: MARY
JANE JENKINS Birth: 02 JUL 1835 Batch No.: C087011
Christening: 09 AUG 1835 Ebenezer Independent, Newport, Pembroke, Wales
Father: THOMAS JENKINS Mother: MARY
And there`s now this . THIS IS SUBMITTED SO NEEDS TO BE CONFIRMED.
MARY GRONOW Spouse: THOMAS JENKINS
Marriage: 24 NOV 1824 Dinas, Pembroke, Wales
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1861 Census
George Symonds age 32 Carpenter born goodrich herefordshire
Martha Symonds age 27 born Trevena, Pembrokeshire
Joseph Symonds age 4 born Merthyr
Llanover Road, Llanover Upper, Abergavenny Monmouthshire
by 1871 Martha was an Evans there are about 4 George Symonds (with various spellings) deaths between 61 and 71 but 3 are recorded as children - the only one that seems to fit that I can see (but no age recorded) is
SIMMONDS George Frederick Newport M 11a 105
(The district Newport M spans the boundaries of the counties of Glamorgan, Gwent and Monmouthshire)
can't find a marriage to Mr Evans though..
although of course George may not have died and Martha may not have married Mr Evans just took his name
and Martha Jenkins could be related through Gronow, Symonds or Evans - although the Gronow/ Jenkins thing is looking good for you at the mo!
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Many thanks to Mabel, Wilcoxon and Baggygenes. You are all so helpful & it is really good of you to take the time to look up and pass on this info. I am now getting spoiled for choice with the possibilities :)
I ordered the marriage cert for Martha Gronow & George Symonds but had a senior moment & called George ... Joseph :o - The GRO returned the order (& payment) saying the info did not match the entry. I have now re - ordered it.
Thanks again to you all. I will try and check out the info you have given and see how it all pans out.
Will post again with an update
Regards
Diane
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.... and now to throw a big spanner in the works!!
I decided to look for Martha Gronow in the 1841 census & found
Joseph Gronow aged 40 Ag Lab
Martha Jenkins (Jenkins crossed out & 'Do'inserted under Gronow) aged 39
then over the page
William Gronow aged 12
Eliz Jenkins (Jenkins crossed out & 'Do' inserted under Gronow) aged 10 (or possibly 11)
Martha Jenkins ( Jenkins crossed out & 'Do' inserted under Gronow) aged 7
The reference is HO 107/1444/4. The parish is St Davids in Pembrokeshire and the place is Lamin Einon
Well, the permutations and speculations here are endless ??? arent they?
Does anyone have access to parish (bapt, marriage & burial) records for this area?
Am wondering if Martha senior was married before to xxxx Jenkins, then widowed, then got together Joseph Gronow. That could be why the females of this household are uncertain of their surname... Perhaps Joseph had been widowed & William was the son of Josephs late wife and that why Jenkins wasnt entered and crossed out on his details.
It is also a bit of a coincidence the same surnames of Gronow & Jenkins seem to be intertwined in this family as they appear to be with my Elizabeth Jenkins & Martha Gronow/Symonds/Evans.
Any further input and suggestions appreciated .
Thanks Diane
(PS realise that 'Do' in above context means ditto)
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Thought this might be of interest / use ... lists names of villiages/towns in Pembrokeshire - might help with locating census places/parish records for instance Trevane which was mentioned earlier is Trefin
http://www.visitpembrokeshire.com/content.asp?id=1971
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Try the IGI on Family search.
https://familysearch.org/
This is good for Non Conformist .
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryWales.htm
Choose County, you then get a list of Chapels. you can either search by name, or leave blank with just the Batch No. You then get all events at that Chapel.
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There is a possible death for Martha senior 1860
Gronow Martha Haverfordwest 11a 464
and possible Joseph 1868
Gronow Joseph age 78 Haverfordwest 11a 444
(although he's aged a few years from the 41 census)
theres a widowed joseph in 61 census for Aberdare but can't find likely one for 51 although theres a Martha Gronow in Goat Street, Newport (which has come under cardiganshire) aged 59 from Dinas, Pembrokeshire with son Joseph 24 (also Mariner) born Newport, daughter Mary 16 born Newport and grandchild Margaret Rees 3 born Newport
saying shes wife of a mariner ?
Don't envy you on this one - apart from the amount of Jenkins (Gronow is a lot more prolific than I would have imaged too!) , confusions as to what their surnames were so which name did they marry/die under you also have very moving registration districts .. arghhhhhh!
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Hello
I found a marriage for a Thomas Jenkins on my Fiche
Dinas,12 Nov 1824
Thomas Jenkins,Labourer
But Brides name is Mary Gronow ???
Kind Regards
omega
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Hello Baggygenes Wilcoxon & Omega
Many thanks for your suggestions . They're going to keep me out of mischief for a while.
As the song goes .... 'there are more questions than answers - the more I find out the less I know!'
Have a nice weekend
Regards
Diane
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Hello Diane
The surname Jenkins/Jinkins from Pembrokeshire has me tearing my hair out.Not a main line thankfully.2x Greatgrandfather`s sister`s lot.
Good Luck with your research.
You have a nice Weekend too.
Kind Regards
omega :)
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I have today received a copy of the marriage cert for Martha Gronow to George Symonds - 8/11/1854 at the Hermon Baptist Chapel Nantyglo Abergavenny. Grooms father is George Symonds - a carpenter
Matha's father is Joseph Gronow - a farmer. There I was hoping her father would be Thomas Jenkins!
Both Martha & George (the groom) give their address as Aberystruth
Perhaps Martha Gronow and Elizabeth Jenkins are half sisters same Mother - different Father. I guess we'll never know.
Would just like to thank everyone for all their help and suggestions.
Very much appreciated and encouraging
Regards
Diane
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This looks good ;)
1841 All born in county
Llangarren Herefordshire.
George Symonds 52 carpenter
Sarah Symonds 50
Edmund Symonds 25 carpenter
Charlotte Symonds 22
Catharine Symonds 17
George Symonds 12
1851 Llanellan, Monmouthshire
Morgan Williams 56 carpenter
Ann Williams 56
Wm Wms 19 carpenter
Ann Wms 16
Geo Symonds 23 servant carpenter b Whitchurch Herefordshire
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Thanks Wilcoxon
Will check these out - especially all the Symonds from the 1841 to see if their paths cross with John Herbert and or Elizabeth Jenkins
Regards
Diane
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This may be Martha`s family in 1851 . wrongly transcribed as Groanw, but no Martha at home ?
1861 Census
George Symonds age 32 Carpenter born Goodrich Herefordshire
Martha Symonds age 27 born Trevena, ( Trevine Trefin ) Pembrokeshire
1851 St Davids Pembrokshire
Joseph Gronow 57 labourer b Treveeln ?? may be Trevin Pembrokshire
Martha Gronow 56 b Melthry ? Pembs
William Gronow 22 shoemaker b Llanigan Pembs
Eliza Gronaw 20 b Llanychan "
1841 is too complicated, ::)
In Dinas I can find a Martha aged 50 that seems to be OK, but no Joseph at home.
On the same page opposite is a William aged 12, but he is with a Margaret Gronow aged 50
Pembrokeshire > Dinas > District 6 >page 3
Hopefully the football on TV has finished, so time for a rest and a beer ;D ;D
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Thanks Wilcoxon
Will check them out as well
You've certainly earned that pint!
Have declared my home a football free zone - think I know who was playing tonight but dont know the score :)
regards
Diane