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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Gwaelodian on Friday 25 May 12 11:35 BST (UK)
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I am researching the family history of Abraham Phillips who was married to Elizabeth Morgan and then to one Jemima from Bedwas. This interests me because our deeds have been signed by this man, who was subsequently killed in an 1875 mining disaster, after which the house is immediately used by another family - in other words, his own family were out of it in less than a month after his death.
I have a lot of material already from on line and census searches but cannot find the date of Abraham and Elizabeth's marriage or the reason for her early death. With reference to Jemima, I cannot find her date of birth, not knowing her family name, but note that she returns to live in Bedwas, where she is listed as a char woman. She may have taken her surviving children with her... I have not yet traced them after living here. I have also drawn a blank on the son, Phillip Phillips, born 1854, beyond the fact that he was a commercial traveller and is therefore not always on the census. Any help gratefully received. I am new to the site and hope I can find my way to any answers that come my way. Nice to say hello to you all. Thanks.
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Hello and welcome to RootsChat
When you say you have "drawn a blank" on Phillip Phillips -do you mean you have no sighting of him at all -or when was the last sighting you have??
Suz
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1861 Phillip Phillips is with parents and siblings in Pentyrch
1871 Phillip is with brother Evan in Liverpool - they are lodgers - Phillip is a clerk to Provision merchant, Evan is Clerk to Cotton merchant
1875 Phillip married hannah Thomas Marriage reg freeBMD Mar qtr 1875 Cardiff reg dist on same page Hannah Thomas Phillip Phillips 11a 319
1881 Phillip and Hannah are living in Wood Cottage garth pentyrch Glam - Phillip's sister Elizabeth is living with them Phillip is a Commercial traveller RG11 5275 72 4
1891 Hannah is a widow and living with her parents in Garth, Pentyrch
There are a couple of possible death reg's for Phillip
Suz
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Marriage reg FreeBMD
Jun qtr 1870
on same page
Abraham Phillips
Jemima Jones
11a 520
Suz
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Suz, I am overwhelmed and so grateful. I suppose I don't know how to search yet.... hence, I only find the easy stuff. I had Phillip at Wood Cottage with siblings... the easy census stuff.I know that John Phillips (b1852), Deborah (b1858-1887), Catherin (b1862) and Elizabeth Phillips(b 111864) were living at Wood Cottage when Abraham Phillips, their father, was killled. Again, I haven't searched them yet. Did you see these names?
I want to write up the mine disaster and get it recognised by the County in the hope they will restore what is left of it. Mining blogs have been helpful here. I wondered if any of the Phillips ended up in hte work house, but it looks as if they made their way. Any further information much welcomed and will be credited. thanks.
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think this could be Abraham's first marriage reg
FreeBMD
Mar qtr 1847
Mertyr Tydfil
on same page Abraham Phillips
Elizabeth Morgan
2b 465
Suz
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The youngest child of Abraham and Elizabeth seems to be Elizabeth -she is age 7 in 1871 census -and in 1881 she is living with Phillip and his wife.
I wonder if this is her birth reg
FreeBMD
Elizabeth Phillips
Mar qtr 1863
Cardiff
11a 229
and then I wonder if this is Elizabeth -wife of Abraham's death reg?
Elizabeth Phillips
Mar qtr 1863
Cardiff
11a 155
this is only a guess -as at that time ages were not given on death reg's.
and the name is not uncommon
Without certificates it is difficult to say.
Did Abraham and jemima have children???
I will follow the other siblings on the census - but it will be later tonight
Suz
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With reference to Jemima, I cannot find her date of birth, not knowing her family name, but note that she returns to live in Bedwas, where she is listed as a char woman. She may have taken her surviving children with her...
I don't think Jemima had children with Abraham - looks like Elizabeth was the youngest child -and she was daughter of Elizabeth.
I cannot find Jemima back living in Bedwas after Abraham's death????
Where did you find that information???
1881
Nelson Village Glamorgan
Mary Williams head widow 53 Charwoman Llanfabon Glam
JEMIMA PHILLIPS visitor widow Bedwas Mon
RG11 5294 66 29
So Jemima didn't live in Nelson - she was a visiting on census night
Suz
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The marriage you give is probably correct in that it ties in with the birth of their first child in 1848. The death cannot be the one as Elizabeth was born to her in 1864. As far as I can see Jemima had no children with Abraham. She was 44 when listed as married to Abraham Phillips in 1971 census. I estimate that the Phillips children ranged from 7-19 when they married and can see no sign of any other off-spring. I don't know Jemima's family name but know she came from Bedwas. As I wrote before, I think, it is likely that she and the younger children went there to live after the mining accident. Thanks again. How are you so very good at this? Have you been doing it for ages or do you have a paid sub to one of the more extensive search engines? So very grateful... and so very interested. Thanks.
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I found Jemima in a census living in Bedwas, listed as a char woman post 1875. I think it must have said on an earlier census that she was born in Bedwas, hence, I looked there.
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The marriage you give is probably correct in that it ties in with the birth of their first child in 1848. The death cannot be the one as Elizabeth was born to her in 1864. As far as I can see Jemima had no children with Abraham. She was 44 when listed as married to Abraham Phillips in 1971 census. I estimate that the Phillips children ranged from 7-19 when they married and can see no sign of any other off-spring. I don't know Jemima's family name but know she came from Bedwas. As I wrote before, I think, it is likely that she and the younger children went there to live after the mining accident. Thanks again. How are you so very good at this? Have you been doing it for ages or do you have a paid sub to one of the more extensive search engines? So very grateful... and so very interested. Thanks.
Are you certain daughter Elizabeth was born 1864? Do you have her birth certificate ?
She is age 17 on 1881 census - but that is only the age given on census -not year she was born - possibly she was b 1863 -unless you have certificate?????
I posted a possible marriage reg for Abraham & Jemima - her name was Jones
You need the marriage certificate to find if she was spinster orwidow when married - father's name & occupation
You say it is "likely" the younger children went with Jemima when Abraham died??
No proof of this. They may have gone to live with married siblings ? Elizabeth by 1881 was living with Phillip and wife
Deborah was working as a servant
There is no sign of the children living in Bedwas after their father's death - and no sign of Jemima living there either??? So really all you can do is wonder where they went to live. All we know at the moment is Jemima states on census she was born in Bedwas. That doesn't necessarily mean that is where she was living pre marriage to Abraham - or she went back to live there after his demise.
I do have access to a couple of paid sites - and have been doing family history for a very long time - pre internet!
You have just posted that you found Jemima in Bedwas on a census post 1875
I posted details of the 1881 census -which would be the next census after Abraham's demise (census are every 10 years) -Jemima is a charwoman b. Bedwas - but visiting someone in Nelson
Jemima possibly died before 1891 census - haven't found her yet - so we don't know where she went to live
Suz
Suz
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I have no birth certificates. My data comes only from the minimal free searches - I haven't done this before and my interest only arose from the project to get the local mining remains preserved. I am overwhelmed by the research you have done on my behalf....... and so grateful. I don't think I could have got to where you are.... and certainly not as quickly. This evening, I hope to go through the various references you have sent and try to collate them so that I can see just where I am going with it all.
I knew Elzabeth was living with Phillip and his wife from my own documents (Deeds). There is an interesting start to it all. Abraham Philllips signed the deeds for a Freehold Lease with a cross, yet I know he comes from an educated family and it seems highly unlikely that he could not write his name. I suspect he was making a protest that the Deed is in English when he was a Welsh speaker. His father was an Ivorite, prominently promoting the Welsh Language. The Deed states that Abraham Phillips must 'finish' the house within six months. It gives him and his heirs rights for 99 years. It interests me that an Overman in the colliery should have privilege from his boss, Thomas William Booker, and it also interests me that he had such a large ( for the time) dwelling. After Abrahams's death, Jemima gets permission from Booker to let another live there, until, as you say, the 1881 census shows Phillip in the cottage again. Subsequently, he 'renounces probate' and sells the cottage to another. I suspect that means he decided to forgo his rights to the Freehold Lease. I have tried to find the cottage on earlier tithe maps - thinking that abraham could have been restoring/repairing a building, for it still mystifies me a little that Abraham is given time to finish the house while the Freehold Lease ( an engima of words in itself) is for a dwelling and land.......
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. It interests me that an Overman in the colliery should have privilege from his boss, Thomas William Booker, and it also interests me that he had such a large ( for the time) dwelling. After Abrahams's death, Jemima gets permission from Booker to let another live there, until, as you say, the 1881 census shows Phillip in the cottage again. Subsequently, he 'renounces probate' and sells the cottage to another. I suspect that means he decided to forgo his rights to the Freehold Lease. I have tried to find the cottage on earlier tithe maps - thinking that abraham could have been restoring/repairing a building, for it still mystifies me a little that Abraham is given time to finish the house while the Freehold Lease ( an engima of words in itself) is for a dwelling and land.......
An overman was quite an important position at a colliery - there would be one overman to one colliery - with the position came a house and gardens and coal- you would expect the house to be of a considerable size
I remember when I lived in Glamorganshire - my friend purchased the old colliery manager's house -a beautiful house - 6 bedrooms - next door was a slightly smaller house - but detached and large garden -which was possibly the overman's house - I am "supposing" here but you should be able to research further. Abraham would have been a very trustworthy man who knew most aspects of coal mining. Regarding the lease - when we moved to Glamorgan we were lucky to buy a freehold property - as most of the propertys had the land on a 99 year lease - which meant you owned the building but not the land it stood upon - and a rent had to be paid for the leasehold land - this was within the last 30-40 years.
Suz
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Yes, our first house in Wales was leasehold. The term 'freehold lease' is more confusing. Were there leased leases? Freehold and leasehold seem to stand in opposition. The other question relates to the cottage and Abraham's six months to finish the building, commencing in 1859. I see Wood Cottage on the early maps fwhere it was called Ty'n y Coed - though not in the census. The Deeds start with the Welsh name but at some point, the name Wood Cottage appears and Ty'n y Coed is another cottage, built adjacently some time later. I believe that the lodger of Abraham Phillips, Henry George ( in the 1871 Census), moved into this and subsequently built the row of cottages known as Georgetown.
How can I find out if the house of Abraham Phillips was new when he moved in, or a renovation of an existing building and outhouses? It obviously belonged to Booker. Where do I look to find the Thomas William Booker estate papers? I have googled it to no avail.
You are a mine of information.... forgive me if I am over tapping it! And thanks, again. N
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there's a burial for an Elizabeth Phillips in Pentyrch parish church 30/8/1866 & she was 41 so could be a match. I can't spot a death reg to go with the burial, though.
Can't tell where you are from your profile, but you may be able to access subscription sites in a library. Findmypast has transcriptions of some Glamorgan pairsh records & scans of the actual register. Both of Abraham's marriages are there, so would save you buying the certs.
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There is a death of Elizabeth Phillips, age 40, in 1866 (Sep Q)
Cardiff volume 11a page 118
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my only excuse is a long day! Off to bed now...
:-[
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Thanks to both Osprey and morganllan. This site is hooking me..... the more you send, the more I know I need to learn and do! I think Elizabeth Phillips was buried at Pentrych. Thanks for the hints re getting searches done via library links. I am pretty well stuck at home and cannot get in... so the internet works well for me..... especially as I get these responses. Never been involved in blogs before. This one is so interesting. Thanks again.