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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: Orrishmeres on Tuesday 05 June 12 02:42 BST (UK)
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Hi
I sam researching James Freeman, one of two brothers, James and Willian Webb Glover Freeman, who came to Australia in the mid 1850's, and established Freeman Brothers, photographers, a hugely successfull enterprise. They were the sons of James Freeman and Lucy Lowder Glover. From records have established that James, a widow, married "Miss Louisa Goode, of Tenby"in 1850 at Bedminster. He was a widower when he married, but don't know details of the marriage. Biographies online state that they had children but no details, and shipping records do not often give passenger lists for unassisted immigrants to Australia. If available they often state Mr and Mrs and family. Both brothers returned to England where James died 22 Oct 1870 at Haverfordwest,Pembrokeshire, Wales. Evidently his wife stayed on and Louisa died bet Jul-Sep 1883 at the same place. William returned to Australis where he died in 1909. I would like to know if anyone can help find any children that may have also stayed in Wales with their mother.
THanks
Moderator Comment: Topic split from older thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,572848.0.html
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I am a little confused (old age) by the details given, however I believe your interest lies in Louisa Freeman widow who aged 70 resided at Foley Cottage H’west St Mary in 1881, born at Lampeter (or possibly Lampeter Velfrey).
It can only be hoped that of all the parishes, chapels and registry offices within the Haverfordwest Registration District that James Freeman aged 56 who died in 1870 was also at H’west St Mary, but quite often that is not the case.
Perhaps James (like so many of us after a lifetime away) was drawn back to his roots, if so the only logical baptism would appear to be in 1813 at Martletwy, IGI confirms this as 28 Nov 1813 to Thomas & Sarah Freeman. I note that Thomas Freeman had mrd Sarah Hitchings at Loveston in 1796.
Louisa would have been a widow at her mrge in the 3rd qtr of 1850 to James Freeman in the Bedminster Reg District Volume 11 Page 71. A look at her mrge certificate will shown her father’s full name and by inference her maiden name when she mrd Mr Goode sometime previous.
It might just be a coincidence but a George Goode was registered deceased in the Bedminster registration district in 1842. There is no mrge of a Mr Goode to a Louisa (surname unknown) in H’west or Tenby area circa 1829 to 1840, perhaps at present one can presume that Louisa and family resided in the Bristol area prior to her mrge to a Mr Goode.
I will leave others to search further census, since I do not have any index for my census copies, but I will check out the burial entries and hopefully find them at H’west St Mary for you, alas any info found will not lead any further to family, but will only be of interest.
One last problem that might occur is that it is rather common for a widow on re-mrge to give her children of that previous mrge the same surname as that of her 2nd mrge without course to any documentation, a problem I have met previous.
Further speculation indicates that a Joseph Freeman was deceased in one of the parishes or chapels covered by the H’west registration district aged 61 yrs in 1886. Whilst his age may be somewhat in question I also note that a Joseph Freeman was baptised at Newton North(next parish above Loveston) in 1822 again to Thomas & Sarah Freeman, so he might just be a brother to your James (A very big if ~ my speculation is correct).
I look forward to what others might have to offer.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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There's obviously crossed lines here - the Freemen I was enquiring about is the Guild of Freemen not a family name Freemen.
Topic Split for clarity
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There's obviously crossed lines here - the Freemen I was enquiring about is the Guild of Freemen not a family name Freemen.
Please forgive my utter confusion, but Lucy Lowder Freeman died in 1846 in the Pembroke Registration District, probably Tenby.
Where am I going wrong when all Freeman surnames fit the queries you are after.
None of the surnames Lowder, Glover, Freeman et al are covered in my 15,000 named Burgess and Freeman of Pembroke Borough which covers Tenby and many other Pembroke parishes beside. Webb is listed but none for the areas of your interest.
So confused, put it down to dotage and will not take up any more of your time.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
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Hello Orrishmeres :)
Welcome to Rootschat!
I have split your posting into a new thread because it was causing confusion!
Orielbenfro has kindly supplied some very useful information in reponse, but BECA replied to say there were crossed lines because the original topic was about Freemen as opposed to the Freeman family!
Hopefully having them as 2 separate threads will help avoid confusion.
This link gives advice on posting new topics:
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting.php
Kind Regards
Morgan
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Hi
Sorry for causing confusion with the thread - I hope it was not too confusing.
I will clear up some of my errors in my posting: have found 1841 Wales Census for Louisa Goode of Tenby, living at High Street, Norton, Pembrokeshire, Wales,occupation "business". born abt 1791, with her sister ? Jane. This ties her in with the marriage to James Freeman:
The Bristol Mercury (Bristol, England), Saturday, August 10, 1850;
Marriage
August 1, at Bristol, Mr James Freeman, of Victoria-park, Bath, to Miss Louisa Good, of Tenby
James and Louisa returned to England in 1867:
From biography online
"
The Freemans returned to England in 1867 and William in 1868, leaving the business in the hands of their staff. In January 1867 James Freeman went to England leaving his brother and their partner Victor A. Prout to take control of the business. Why James left is unclear, perhaps illness or an argument but it was clearly unexpected for it was February before the official notice of his retirement from the studio of ‘Freeman Brothers and Prout’ was published in the papers. From this date William and Victor Prout took over the formal management under the name of ‘Freeman and Prout. William came back to Sydney after the death of James in 1870 and continued to produce carte-de-visite and larger portraits from several premises along George Street."
SMH 16 January 1867
DARLINGHURST. THURSDAY, January 23rd.
Preliminary Notice. Superior Household Furniture and Effects.
MESSRS. CHANDLER and CO. have received instructions from James Freeman, Esq., to sell by auction, at his residence, Liverpool- street. Darlinghurst, on THURSDAY, January 23rd, at11 o'clock,
The whole of his superior household furniture and effects (prior to his departure for England). Full particulars will be duly published. The house to be let
SMH 25 January 1867
THIS DAY, Friday, January 25th. - At the Residence of James Freeman, Esq., Liverpool-street, Darlinghurst.
SUPERIOR Household Furniture and Effects Comprising- Drawing-room Suite, in walnut, covered in crimson damask, with loose chintz covers,Shaped Oval Table, Card Tables, Oval Telescope Dining Table
Spanish Mahogany Sideboard, Chairs, Couches, Girandole in leather, work frame, Chimney Glasses in gilt frames -
Handsome Glass Chandelier, Iron Bedsteads Mattresses, etc. Chest Drawers, Washstands, etc
Brussels Carpets, Very choice Engravings, Water Colour and Oil Paintings, Photographs, etc.
Best Cat Glassware, China, Dinner Services, Crockery, and Earthenware, .Kitchen Utensils, and general Household-Requisites, Also, A brilliant-toned Rosewood Cottage Pianoforte,
MESSRS. CHANDLER and CO. have received instructions from James' Freeman, Esq., (who is leaving for England,) to sell by auction at his residence, Liverpool-street, Darlinghurst THIS DAY, Friday, January 25th, at ll o’clock, The whole of. his superior furniture, engravings, pianoforte, and effects.
Sydney Morning Herald 12 Feb 1867
NOTICE is hereby given, that Mr. JAMES FREEMAN has THIS DAY RETIRED from the firm of FREEMAN, BROTHERS, and PROUT, and that the business will henceforth be conducted by Messrs W. G. M. Freeman and Victor A. Prout, under the style of FREEMAN and PROUT, by which latter firm all Accounts owing to, and all Debts due from, Freeman Brothers, and Prout, will be received and discharged respectively.
Dated this 1st day of February, 1867 .
JAMES FREEMAN, W. G. W. FREEMAN, VICTOR A. PROUT Witness-G. P. SLADE, solicitor, Sydney
From 1841 Census Louisa would have been past childbearing
age by the time she married James in 1850, so that any children would have been from his first marriage, which I have not been able to find.
So, the Louisa Freeman who died in 1883 could be his widow. I will order both of their death certificates, hoping for more detail. NSW death certificates usually supply the number and names of children, their ages at time of the parents death, which is most helpful.
Thanks for the information provided so far. It would be great to learn of the family of Louisa.
Once again thanks for help
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They were the sons of James Freeman and Lucy Lowder Glover. From records have established that James, a widow, married "Miss Louisa Goode, of Tenby"in 1850 at Bedminster
Is it a coincidence that an advert for a sermon was published in the Bristol Mercury Feb 1839 , " The Faithful Prophet " on the death of the Rev William Lowder Glover A. M. late minister of St Pauls Church Bedminister on Sunday morning Nov 18th 1838.
Another article states that he died Nov 7th 1838.
Jackson's Oxford Journal May 22, 1847
Death . At Clifton, Rebecca , relict of the late Rev William Lowder Glover. late minister of St Pauls Church Bedminister
1841 7 Albermarle Row ? Clifton
Rebecca Glover 60 Ind b Y
Frederick Cooke 13 b N
Lucy Cooke 11 b N
Emma Amos 20 FS b Y
Elizabeth Amos 15 FS b Y
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Could this be linked . Found on here . Records 61 to 80
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=6197
Cambrian R17 CULTURE AND THE ARTS AND SCIENCE, PHOTOGRAPHY 31 October 1851
MR.J.FREEMAN, DAGUERREOTYPE PORTRAITS, 5 PROSPECT PLACE, BURROWS, SWANSEA.
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Hello Orielbenfro
I am most grateful for your help is trying to sort out the family - thanks for putting me right on the death of Lucy Lowder Freeman, nee Glover. I had found a death for her in Clifton, Gloucester but did not include the source, so will have to back track. But it makes sense that she came from Wales, as there is a connection with her son James Freeman going back there. I wonder I James Freeman was Welsh.
Many thanks for you most helpful information
Cheers
Orrishmeres
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I wonder I James Freeman was Welsh.
If James is “Welsh”(i.e. Pembrokeshire), then the only one to fit is as my previous at Martletwy in 1813 in line with burial in 1870, and Louisa of Lampeter Velfrey circa 1792 in line with the ‘81 and '83 burial. I will check out the later.
It might be a blind avenue but I note a single baptism at Tenby for the Glover surname that of Octavious Glover in 1830. IGI confirm this as 30 Apr 1830 to John Octavious & Eliza Glover. John & Eliza did not marry in the area.
I feel sure that the will of Sarah Cook, Spinster of the Norton Tenby ref SD1848-242 is related to your research and can be viewed for free at ;
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
Have you looked at any of the Lowder wills proven at the E.C.C. of Canterbury not least those of Samuel Lowder of Bristol PROB 11/1234 dated 1793 and Lucy Lowder of Bristol PROB 11/1540, there is an outside chance that the Walcot Somerset Lowder’s wills, proven in the same Court, may also hold a key to your research.
There is also a reference to W. Lowder in HO 47/11/86. I believe that W. Lowder was in fact the Rev’d William Lowder of Cardiff, could he have some relationship to the Rev Wm Lowder Glover of Bedminster?
All PROB and HO references can be seen at ;
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/catalogues-and-online-records.htm
But in this case will cost.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
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Another combination of names
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=6197
Cambrian B10 MARRIAGES, MARRIAGE 06 July 1833
STIRLING FREEMAN GLOVER ESQ.TO GEORGIANA, DAUGHTER OF LORD CHARLES HENRY SOMERSET
Freeman, James, Tenby, Tenby, Pembroke, Gent/Widower
James Freeman : bond, 1849.
William Glover Webb Freeman is named as the son of James Freeman.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/499650
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Hi Orielbenfro and Wilcoxon
Many thanks for your help and suggestions. I find it hard to research English records but will follow your instructions re wills. Had no luck trying to find Sarah Cooke's will but will try again. Had found the Rev William Lowder Glover whose father was John gentleman of Bewdley. Worcester but could not find anymore details for his birth,marriage, death.
When James Freeman arrived in Sydney in 1853 he was accompanied by his wife and a Miss Freeman (she could have been his sister Eliza b 1817 Bristol. )
So, is the connection to Wales through James and William Glover Webb Freeman's father James being Welsh and he would have had to born abt 1780-85? An online biography of the two sons states their father was "an important man".
Ancestry and FamilySearch.org does not through any more light, or I have missed any information.
William Glover Webb's wife was Margaret Ann Dayrell born in 1812, Barbados, daughter of Thomas and Elvira Smith (nee Cox) Dayrell, plantation owners. The number of slaves bearing the name Dayrell is amazing. There were Freeman plantation owners too.
Thanks again for your suggestions
Orrishmeres
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Here is the direct link / handle
St. David's Probate Records, 1556-1858
Cook, Sarah, Tenby, The Norton, Tenby, Pembroke, Spinster
Sarah Cook : will, 1848
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/745380
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H’west St Mary Burials
Louisa Freeman of Goat St H’west buried 01 Sept 1883 aged 73 yrs
Louisa Elizabeth Freeman of Goat Street Parish of St Thomas buried 16 Aug 1870 aged 25 yrs
James Freeman of Goat Street Parish of St Thomas buried 26 Oct 1870 aged 56 yrs
Tenby St Mary Burial
Lucy Lowder Freeman of the High Street Tenby buried 06 Nov 1846 aged 60 yrs
Newton North Burial
George Freeman of Church Park Newton North buried 30 Apr 1829 aged 19 yrs
Jeffreyston Burial
Emilius Good of the Poor Field H’west buried 28 Jul 1830 aged 26 yrs
Rgds
Orielbenfro
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Louisa Freeman of Goat St H’west buried 01 Sept 1883 aged 73 yrs
Louisa died on 29th August , she left a will. Proved by Mary Goode, widow of Agincourt House, York Town, Surrey and Felix Brown, gentleman of Clyde Park, Redland, Bristol , two of the executors.
Personal estate £2,376 11s 3d
Out of interest . Living at 17 Clyde Park , Westbury on Trym, Bristol.
Felix was aged 72 in 1881, he was a retired lace merchant , born London.
Wife Mary A , aged 59 was born Tenby. there are 4 unmarried children still at home
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Hi Orrishmeres, I am a photographic historian and I have been researching the Freemans and photographers connected with them. James FREEMAN was bap. 30 Aug 1815, St Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, Gloucester and died 22 Oct 1870, Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire, His first wife was Martha, b. c.1819, d. 5 Sep 1848, Bath, Somerset. They had a daughter Lucy FREEMAN b. c.1843 in Bath. I have quite a deal more info and would love to correspond further. Cheers! Marcel, Brisbane, Australia.