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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Completed Lookups => Topic started by: Gwaelodian on Monday 25 June 12 11:50 BST (UK)
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Having been helped by you experts before and having come to the end of my limited abiltiy, I wonder if anyone can help me unravel this:
Family of Abraham and Elizabeth Phillips: Abraham(b 1822) was killed in Llan pit explosion 1875. John Thomas, a roller from Pentyrch moves into his house. (Ty'n y Coed/Wood Cottage). I have a hand written note from Booker allowing this transfer of tenancy. Subsequently, Abraham and Elizabeth's daughter Sussanah marries a John Thomas. ( Sussanah, b 1848; d 1885). Is this the same John Thomas?
Further, Phillip Phillips, a son of Abraham marries a Hannah Thomas in 1875 and lives at the same address. Hannah's father is given as John Thomas. Could Hannah be related to the above John Thomas?
I think Phillip Phillips died in 1888 and Hannah moves to live with her parents in the Garth.
I am also still trying to establish cause of death of Elizabeth. Her death is recorded as 1886, buried on 30th August at local church.
Suz helped me earlier. I am writing a book around the pit explosion. All help will be acknowledged. Thanks. :)
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Hannah's father would appear to be George, not John
1891 Gwaelod y Garth RG12/4384 folio 74 pg 15
George Thomas head mar 65 watchman
Mary wife 63
Hannah Phillips dau widow 35
Annie Thomas grand dau 5
Gertrude Thomas grand dau 7
Thomas J Rees visitor 45 Independent Minister b. Swansea
all born Pentyrch except where noted
John & Susanna married before Abraham's death & they are on the same census page as Abraham & family in 1871
1871 Maesarail, Garth, Pentyrch RG10/5355 folio 4 pg 2
John Thomas head mar 25 coal miner
Susanna wife 22
Gwenllian dau 1
all born Pentyrch
marriage reg
Susannah Phillips june qtr 1868 Cardiff vol 11a pg 373 with John Thomas on the same page
Only way to find cause of death is to buy the death certificate. She was buried August 1866, not 86
more info on other thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599523.msg4492780.html#msg4492780
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:) :) :)Wow! Thank you. How on earth did you do it! I must now revise some text. Can we stay in touch? The book is going to take some time ..... this early structure is taking so long. Thanks so much for your help. In what name shall I make the credit? Norma
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You'll need to be careful of using copyright material in a book. Terms & conditions of census providers usually say that info is for personal use only and can't be used for commercial purposes.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php
Births, marriages and deaths are available from FreeBmd's transcription of the GRO index
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
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Do you mean that the historical data cannot be used as a structure? Mostly, I am using local 'written' information. The Phillip's family were remarkable, I am finding. One it its members wrote a chronical (not completely accurate against the census) of the family, y Phillipiad, noting those who made a mark. Abraham Phillips and his family are noted, but really only with a list of the children and reference to the pit accident. The book I am doing is unlikely to be a commercial project - more of a gathering of information to mark the pit disaster. I am choosing to do it via a story type narrative. As a village, there is now an emerging project to restore and mark the industrial remains - the base of the fan house and the entrance to the drift mine in question. I have made four narrative paintings for the village hall, resourced from old mining prints. However, I will research to the best on my ability just what the legality of the census information means in relation to this project.
I am curious to find now if Phillip and Hannah had any children themselves. Non are referenced in the Philliipiad. Can you think of a way to approach this? There are surviving relatives of the family in the village. None know of the pit disaster or the details.
Thank you for your help and advice. I will press on ... and if legality precludes direct use of names/data I will make it a complete fiction with other names. :-\ Thank you again. :)
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I doubt Philip & Hannah had children. None with them on the 1881 census and none with Hannah & her father in 1891.
Hannah remarried sept qtr 1894 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 744 - John Hicks on the same page
1901 Gwaelodygarth RG13/4971 folio 44 pg 17
Mary Thomas head widow 72
John Hicks son-in-law 37 platelayer
Hannah Hicks wife 44 b. Eglwysilan
Mary E Hicks dau 17
Herbert W Hicks son 11
all born Pentyrch except where noted. Relationships are those put by the enumerator and aren't correct as Hannah isn't wife to head of household.
Death of John's first wife
Agnes Ann Hicks 29 june qtr 1892 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 240
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:) Thanks, Osprey. I am unlikely to go as far on as this.... it is likely the story will stop at Phillip's death and the empty cottage, as Hannah moves to live with her parents. But so interesting and very useful in terms of understanding the family. It also shows me the livelihoods. This is one I hadn't known. Thank you again. Norma
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Osprey - you have helped me a lot with research . I thought you might like to know that next Wednesday, we are meeting with a person who may facilitate a grant to preserve the mine workings that started this project. ( centred on Abraham Phillips, Overman). All that you have sent will be incorporated in text around this proposed local history memorial.
We are still seeking Elizabeth Phillips, who was living at Wood Cottage with her brother Phillip and his wife .Elizabeth was the daughter of Abraham Phillips and his second wife, Jemima, as you will know.In the Census of '81 she is listed as being 17. With only free searches, we have looked for her at other ages but do not find her. We think she may have been a pupil teacher and then,maybe, a teacher. You are more expert than we are with this type of research. Do you have any ideas on how we search Elizabeth? Thanks.
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this could be Elizabeth in 1901, but you would need to get her marriage cert to be sure
44 Wyndham St, Barry RG13/4993 folio 15 pg 22
John Taylor head mar 46 labourer b. Glam, Gower
Elizabeth wife 37 b. Pentyrch
Bertha dau 19 dressmaker b. Cardiff
George son 5 b. Barry
Elvet Rees nephew 4 b. Peterston super Ely
marriage ref
John Taylor sept qtr 1894 Cardiff vol 11a pg 666 with Elizabeth Phillips on the same page
cert would show if this Elizabeth was the daughter of Abraham
This could be her in 1891
13 Holton Rd, Barry RG12/4406 folio 84 pg 7
Henry L Jones head widower 35 Registrar births deaths marriages b. Bonvilston
Rachel B dau 10 b. Cardiff
Mary dau 8 b. Cardiff
Thomas son 4 b. St Nicholas
Elizabeth Phillips housekeeper 29 b. Pentyrch
:-\
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Thank you so much for the lead. I will look into getting the marriage certificate. First, though, I will check it out with local history people. It may be in the book, written in Welsh, called y Phillipiad. I am not Welsh-speaking, but someone in the history group may be. :) :) :)
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sorry, I forgot to mention that Elizabeth in 1901 was enumerated as speaking both Welsh & English, rest of the family only English. In 1891, all the household are shown as speaking both.
;)
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That fits in. Abraham's father was a leading Ivorite, promoting the Welsh language. Abraham spoke only Welsh. He signed the deeds for Wood Cottage, which were in English, with a x. :)
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Hi, my friend involved in local history who is helping me with this project of the Lan Pit sent me the enclosed note below:
Hi Norma
I ask 'why would have Elizabeth gone to Barry?'. Was she in service to a member of the Phillipiaid? Apparently not as Henry Jones b Bonvilston (abt 1856) was the son of Thomas Jones, a farmer from Bassaleg, Mon. with no apparent connection. In 1901, it would appear that Elizabeth was the second wife of John Taylor - Bertha b 1882 - but even with George, that is not a Phillipiaid family name. The mystery remains!
regards
d
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you need the marriage cert to be sure it wasn't her.
Possible birth reg for son
George Wesley Taylor sept qtr 1895 Cardiff vol 11a pg 459
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Further thoughts from Derek:Hi Norma
No, but I was looking for a positive connection between the families. It probably is the Elizabeth we seek. There are no other Elizabeth Phil(l) ip(s)' who appear on the census who remotely resemble the ones in Barry. However, the child could have been born between census dates and moved out of the area without ever being shown on the Pentyrch census.
Just trying to eliminate all of the alternatives (re my conversation with Tom yesterday about Edward de Bono!)
How do I set about buying the certificate? :)
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you can buy from the registrars in Cardiff, but you need to know which place of worship the marriage took place in for them to track it. Pretty sure the family is non-conformist. Do you know where they worshipped ? Marriage could have taken place in the registry office, though.
http://www.cardiff.gov.uk/content.asp?nav=2,2867,2903,5813
The other option is to order from the GRO, using the reference I gave you.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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i'll try to do it on line. I am stuck at home so getting into Cardiff not possible. The site you gave is off line for a while....Thanks. :)
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as I mentioned, ordering from the registrars is only possible if you know where they married. There's no point in visiting the registrars, they don't supply certs immediately unless you pay (much) more.
You can order from the GRO - the maintenance is next week & you could have the cert before it starts.
::)
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:) :) :) :) :) :)
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Update on Elizabeth Phillips: Seems the marriage certificate will not be needed. Translation from the Welsh at Pentrych Parish Church gives us her date of death via a memorial
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PS. September 1886 aged 23.
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that's a sad end to the search, but does explain why there isn't a good match for her on the census
Death registered as Eliza
Eliza Phillips 23 sept qtr 1886 vol 11a pg 138
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Death stalked this house - and so many, I think - with horrible regularity. You may like to know that we met with the County Councillor, who is now approaching the Welsh Heritage Board and the Coal Board with respect to the memorial to the miners who died in the Lan explosion. Your help is so much appreciated. I am busy on the story, too. If more questions crop up, I hope you will be patient and help again. Such a good local history project. A mining engineer and a local historian attended the meeting. They all went to look at the drift entrance and fan house remains.
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Elizabeth Phillips died age 40 from Typhoid Fever on the 28 August 1866 - not 1886. The informant was her son Evan. I've tried inserting the image of the death cert. but can't find a way to do this.
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It is not possible to add an image on the look up boards. A transcript would be all that is needed on here.
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That would explain why I can't upload the picture of the death cert. then. I have already put a transcription in my first reply. It seems odd that so many put the year of her death as 1886 - when it is 1866. I have the death cert. if anyone one wants to see it.
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1866/1886 is an easy enough error to start with, the trouble is that people enter things on their trees that they have copied from other peoples trees without checking it is accurate.