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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: MattH on Tuesday 10 July 12 17:19 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am trying to find out where I can find census records for Sicily from 1871-1911. I am researching in the regions of Trapani and Palermo. Specifically, I am researching in the cities of Alcamo and Bagheria. Does anyone have any experience in this area or with census records during this time period? Any help will certainly be appreciated.
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Hi,
I live in Italy and have just answered a question for another member, so at the same time I will see where I can get hold of the Sicilian Census for you. Need patience, its Italian Holidays now(August)
Soon as I hear I will let you know.
Steve
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Steve,
Thanks for the reply. I look forward to your help. When the time arrives, please let me know and I will let you know about the specific people I am researching. Thanks again!
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Hi,
Had a reply from the Italian National Archives. They are not online, but I can get hold of them.
They are not as detailed the UK, but there should be sufficient info.
Give me the name(s), date of birth(s) and place of birth(s).
Its a bit involved, but not a problem. Also need to wait after the Italian Holidays (15th.Aug).
Steve
:)
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Steve,
I just sent you a private message with each of the individuals I'm am looking for in the census records. If you do not receive it, please let me know. Thank you!
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Got it, printed it and will work on it after the 15th.August.
Hopefully I should have some good news for you befoe the end of August.
Don't worry too many names, will work on them bit by bit.
No problemforme,
Steve
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Hi Matt,
Still holidays here, but have been around the internet and research sites and come up with this and still needs some more reseacrh on dates. Bagheria comes under Palermo and the "o" and "a" depends on who is transcribing.
Pietro Martorana b.1856 Palermo d. 1932
(father Giuseppe Martorana b. 1837
(mother Maria Anna Carcione b. 1838
married ????
Maria Viscusa b. 1859 Bari (Puglia) d. 1941
Child of Pietro and Maria Anna; Giuseppe Martorana b. 1896 d. 1948
Father and mother of Giuseppe Martorana b. 1837
Giovanni Martorana b. 1809 d. ???? and Giuseppa Sorce
Child of Giovanni Martorana and Maria Anna Corcione
Giuseppa Martorana b.1852 Bagheria
married ????
Giuseppe Sciortino b. 1850
children:
Angela Sciortino b.1869
Maria " b.1878 d. 1952
Giuseppe " b. 1890
Pietro " b. 1891 d. 1979
Missing dates and places I need to work on, but thats something for the moment and hope I've written it so you can understand it. Keep on researching and will contact the local Municpal Town Hall records by e-mail a.s.a holidays finish here in Italy.
Steve
:)
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Thanks, Steve. It was nice to hear from you so quickly! I just would like to ask, if it's not too much trouble, to maybe cite where you got this information. I'd like to know if it's from a census record or from another civil or parochial source, just in case I need to use reference that source in the future.
I look forward to seeing what else you have in store. So far, it's been extremely helpful. Thanks again!
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Hi Matt,
I checked Ancestry Italia and found several trees and the info conicided.
Have now written to the National Archives in Palermo with the names and dates. Have requested details of birth certificates/marriages and if necerssary death certificates, plus census details (if any). The BC. will show name and mother and father and also street address.
MC will show bride and bridegrooms mother and father and address. If I can get hold of the original I will scan and send them to you. The census will show family members, but given it is the late/early 1800/1900 they may not have bothered, but we see.
Will checkout the others, but will concentrate more on this one first.
Geneology is not a stong point with the Italians and hence difficulty finding on the net records.
Steve
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Hi Matt,
Don't know if you are in the States or not, but found this:-
NEW YORK PASSENGER LISTS
Giuseppe Martorana (labourer) b. 1896 Sanapirello Italy - father Pietro Martorana
Dep:Palermo and Arrived in NY: 14/06/1913 for Chicago. Ship:San Giovanni
Microfilm T715, Microfilm Roll T715/2014, Line 11
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USA 1940 CENSUS - Brooklyn,NY
223, Himrod Street, Kings,NY (Houseowner and house value $1500) Same address for 1935
Giuseppe Martorana b.1895 Presser Clothing Factory (Nat.American)
Mary Martorana b.1896 Wife (Nat.American)
+ children (*)
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US WWll DRAFT REG. CARD - 1942
Giuseppe Martorana b. 20/02/1895 Palermo, Italy
Res: Kings, NY Wife Mary Martorana and address as above.
Employer: F.Brown, 808,Driggs Ave, Brooklyn, NY
Height: 5'5'', Brown eyes, Black Hair, Dark complextion.
Have scanned the original and can send this to you if you want.
Whilst I am waiting for Palermo will research to see what elseI can dig up.
Steve
(*) Moderator Comment:
Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living. This is to protect all concerned from spam, identity abuse, internet abuse, etc, etc.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi,
Just realised I can send attachments, so if I have done it right this is the Draft Record.
Steve
just noticed not attached
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You can see the draft registration card and the other records mentioned for free on www.familysearch.org.
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Hi Shellyesq,
Many thanks for the info. Noticed there is a submitted tree on the Martorana in Italy with an enormous amount of info and dates(B.M.D) with ref no. for the microfilm and the person who compiled the info. There are no original documents. I assume you can see all this info in a local library and maybe more.
As there a number of pages think I'll scan them and send by e-mail to Matt.
Grateful thanks to you.
Steve
(PS. sending you a PM today with a problem I have- too long to post - to see what ideas you may have.)
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Hi Matt,
ITS OLD AGE!!
Go on familysearch.org, as shellyesq suggested, and input just Pietro Martorana and nothing else. On the bottom of the page "Submitted Trees" click on the first Pietro. Now it will show all details and you can click on individual names to get more info. You could probally contact the tree holder to see where the info came from. In the meantime Palermo should reply to me with original documents.
Whilst you do that I'll check the others.
Steve
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Hi Matt,
Last bit on the USA, because don't know if you have the USA connection:-
Illinois, Cook Cty Births 1878-1922
Giovanbattista b. 1918 Chicago. Father,Felice Santangelo b.1858 Bagheria, Mter.Maria Sorce b.1882 Bagheria
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1920 Census - 441 Oak Street, Cook Cty, Illinois
Felice Santangelo b. 1853 Palermo - Rail Road Labourer - Arrived 1910
Mary b. 1881 Palermo - Wife - Arrived 1910
Josie b. 1906 Palermo Arrived 1910
Felicia b. 1908 Palermo Arrived 1910
Charles b. 1912 Illinois
Joe b. 1918 Illinois (That is Giambattista above)
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Obituary Chicago Tribune 22/10/1964
Maria Santangelo (neč Sorci) wife of the late Felix(Felice); mother of Marie Cristie, Josephine Di Filippo, Charles and John; 7 g/children; 5 g.g/children. Funeral Friday 10.00am from Wm C. Smith & Sons 2500 N. Cicero Ave to St.Peter Canisius Church. Internment St.Joseph, BE 7-8070
Let me know if you have the USA connection, whilst I'm waiting for Palermo.
Steve
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Moderator and Matt,
Moderator: My apologies and thank you for the diplomatic note.
Matt: Have seen the PM and will e-mail the information as it is too long to post or attach here.
Steve
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Steve,
Got the PM and look forward hearing from you soon.
I am aware of a few of the things you have posted. For instance, I have the 1920 US Census for Felice Santangelo. The person who I am working for showed me his death certificate, which was interesting because he fell from the 6th floor of the hospital to his death. I'm also aware of Giuseppe Martorana, who was also known as Joseph when he came to US. He died in Benton Harbor, Michigan. I have been able to locate his sister's grave along with his mother's grave, both of which are in Chicago.
Either way, I look forward to viewing your scans and information.
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Hi Matt, and Peeps,
SANTANGELO: Working from the 1920 USA Census for dates, not found anything yet on the net.
Found an address for the Research Dept (Nat.Arch) Palermo. So written details of Felice with just year of birth and place and also wives. Have mentioned in another post on the forum the difficulty here, so hoping some kind person in Palermo will flick a few pages for me and give some details and maybe parents. In the meantime I'll search about and also the other two families.
PEEPS: On the Martorana family found info, but sent it by e-mail, because it was 7 pages.
Steve
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Sounds good. I don't need too much help with records from the US since that's the part that I am most familiar with. Still, the information you've provided has been terrific. I look forward to see what the archives in Palermo has to say.
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Hi Matt,
Just got a reply from Palermo, there is no mention in their records for a SANTANGELO Felice born in Bagheria 1853 or years either side. Nor do their records show for Palermo. So without official documents and refs that is stuck at the moment.
I'll keep on looking for the others along with the other members postings here for Italy.
I'm going over to the UK for a month shortly so hold tight fo more info.
Steve
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Steve,
Thanks for getting back with me on this. That's too bad that nothing was found for Felice Santangelo. What was the span of years you used? The reason why I ask is because I've seen his birth year as being 1854, 1856, etc. I'll get in touch with my contact to see what she wants to do.
I have a couple more names that I need some help with. They're all from the Bagheria area as far as I can tell. I'm only looking for parentage for these individuals as well.
Lastly, do you know of where I can find out about adoptions of children and orphanages from around 1890-1895? I have one person that I need to have records checked in the adoptions records.
Let me know if you would like this information now or if you would like it when you return to Italy. Thanks again!
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They checked several years either side,
Adoption records, which country are you looking at?
Steve
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Steve,
Sorry for not getting back with you until now. I'm after Italian adoption records. The person I'm looking for is Anna Martorana. Her birth surname is either Vecchia or Vecchiaia. This name was listed on her husband's birth registration as well as USA naturalization records. Apparently, she was born on 25 July 1892 in Palermo, but to whom is still unknown. She was adopted by Pietro Martorana and Maria Viscuso sometime after that. The information I have from my client is that Anna was born to an female artist and that she was immediately placed in the Institute of the Foundlings following her birth (sorry, I don't know what it is called in Italian!). Her biological mother supplied financial support for Anna's schooling at the College of San Giuseppe, a private boarding school.
(As a side note: Having done a little searching on the internet does not prove to be useful: I can't find the College of San Giuseppe nor the Institute of the Foundlings in Palermo.)
I also have some information regarding Felice Santangelo that might be helpful. Could you look up to see if there was a Felice Santangelo who was born on 13 January 1892 in Palermo? My client thinks it was the Santa Ninfa Secion, though that seems like a spelling mistake. This birth date doesn't make sense to me considering all of the US records have him listed as being born sometime in the 1850s; but I'm willing to try this date as well.
Let me know what you're able to come up with when you have the time. Thanks!
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Hi Matt,
A question you mention "Anna" Martorana (Vecchia/Vecchiaia) b. 19/01/1892 Palermo and adopted by Pietro Martorana and wife.
In an earlier posting you mention"Maria" Vecchia/Vecchiaia) no date of birth, adopted by Pietro Martorana and wife. Are we talking about the same person and if so which is the actual first name?
Also as you mentioned the La Russa family in the same posting, does this have any bearing on one or the other;
Natural. Recds .Chicago, Illinois (oops, forgot the year - think 1928)
Anna Vecchia or La Russa b. 1892 Italy. As I am not familiar with the American Natural.Recds do they not include the parents of the person?
Not found yet the Instutute of Foundlings under the italian translation, nor have I found the College of San Giuseppe, which given the date will have been run by nuns. Still searching that piece.
Problem when I write to the Palermo Archives they need a specific date or year and place of birth. Although they will search years before and after they will not search the whole Palermo Province as that would be very time consuming.
Give me some feedback on Anna/Maria and then I can look into it.
Steve
Steve
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Steve,
Sorry for the confusion. I, too, get a bit confused when both names are so popular. The person is Anna Vecchia/Vechiaia Martorana.
Unfortunately, these type of American records typically do not include the parent's names. I would think, however, that if they did, they would mention her adopted parents.
The only other naturalization papers I could probably look into are the declaration of intention papers, which are the first step towards gaining citizenship. I'll have to do more research on that to see if she ever filled any out.
I'll keep you updated with that should anything come up. Thanks!
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Hi Matt,
Thanks for the message. Have written to the Palermo Archives and also asked if they have info on adoptions around that time and any info on "Collegio di San Giuseppe" (College of San Giuseppe) that I cannot find.
Steve
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Terrific! I look forward to seeing what they have to say. I'll keep on researching the naturalization records and maybe something will come up. Thanks again.
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Steve,
The thought hit me earlier today that one resource that could potentially help are military records. I read online that this resource could be especially helpful with finding out Felice Santangelo's birth date, parent's names, etc. Being that I am not very knowledgeable about this particular area, what is your experience? Is it just a matter of writing to the archives in Palermo?
Just as a reminder, we think he was born around 1855 +/- 5 years. We know for sure that he was born in Bagheria.
Let me know your thoughts about this.
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Hi Matt,
I am still waiting for Palermo Archives on the last the questions. Military Records - you've got me on that one and I will need to look into that, but there again they will want a date I think. As far as I know the archives checked several years -/+ for Felice. Will try again to see what they can find.
Its going to be a couple of weeks before you hear from me as I am off to the UK on Friday, unless I hear something before hand.
Steve
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Matt,
Just back to Italy after two weeks in the UK.
Palermo Archives have said to write to Palermo BMD for info on Felice Santangelo b. 1892.
section Santa Ninfa. Also told me in Trapani there is a Santa Ninfa.
Also said write ti Palermo BMD for birth info on Anna Vecchia b. 1892 Palermo and any adoption records they may have.
Done it and waiting for a reply.
Steve
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Steve,
Great to hear back from you! I hope something comes up that might be helpful. Did you ever figure out how to go about finding about military records? These might be helpful when it comes to people like Felice Santangelo.
Here's hoping these mysteries will be solved!
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Matt,
Just got a reply from Palermo and there is no records of Felice Santangelo 1892, nor taking a few years either side. The same applies to Anna Vecchia. Zilch in regard to adoption and the College. Tried Trapani, but the same answer.
So I am lost on these two, unless ypu have other info or ideas.
Steve
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Steve,
Thanks for the update. The birth year for Felice should have been around 1853-1860, not 1892. Maybe I gave you the wrong date for him.
The only other thing I think might be good to look for would be the military record for Felice. My guess is that he would have to have completed his military service, since it was required for all Italians to serve military time at the age of 18 since 1865. That means that he would have served some time between 1870 and 1880, give or take a couple of years.
According to Italian military websites (see below my message for the sites), it says that you should look for the following records: Foglio Matricolare (I think also called Registro dei Foglie Matricolari), Registro di Leva, and Folglio di Congedo Illmitato.
One site says that the military records are housed at the provincial archives. Since he was from Bagheria, I guess that would be Palermo, correct? Would it be possible for you to maybe write and see what they say? I think even he if he was exempt from serving in the military, it may still provide some answers.
I'm really especially hopeful that this will answer the parentage questions, since they seem to be very biographical records. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!
Sites: http://www.progenealogists.com/italy/italianmilitary.htm
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~itawgw/contents/records/military_records.html
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Matt,
Thanks for info. Already have the info, but did not write because of dates. There is no e-mail address, so I will be writing a letter. That means it will take a few weeks.
Hopefuly this will settle the outstanding questions and lead to more info from then onwards.
Steve
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Steve,
I'm okay with the wait period. I look forward to hearing what you have found soon. Take care!
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Steve!
Hopefully this message will reach you before you send that letter for military records. My contact here in the US is wanting you to add a few more names to the list. I guess this only seems logical since it takes so long to hear back from the archives. The names are:
1. Pietro Martorana (or Martorano): born around 1856 (+/- 5 years) in Palermo. This is the same one you worked on earlier. He would have served in the military from sometime between 1874-1885.
2. Alfred Martorana (or Martorano): son of Pietro. I don't have a birth year for him, but it is probably 1885 (+/- 5 years) in Palermo. He actually stayed in Italy while the rest of his siblings came to the US around 1913. My guess is that he served in the military from sometime between 1900-1910.
Hopefully I caught you just in time!
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Hi Matt,
Noted and sent letter - see what we gleen from this.
Steve
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Hi Matt,
Not forgotten you.
Waiting for a reply regards the Military Records and just sent another reminder letter.
Steve
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Steve,
Thanks for letting me know. I look forward to hearing about your findings. Thanks!
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Hi Steve,
Just wanted to see if you have maybe heard anything regarding the military records office yet. I know you would have gotten back to me, but, just in case, I thought I'd remind you about this. Hope to hear from you soon.
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I am looking for census records for my ggrandparents who lived in Prizzi in the 1800's. Would like to know how I can access these records.
Thank you.
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Hi Matt,
How embarassing is this.
I did write a message sometime ago mentioning that they found(supposedly) no military records!
Seems my message never went!!
Have'nt been on the forum for a while and today was looking around.
So going to have to look at the whole postings to see where we were up to.
Steve
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Hi Steve!! So nice to hear from you! I thought something had happened to you since I never heard back from you. I have been able to make some good finds, but it has been a bit slow.
I'm going to need your help: I would like to try and see if you can request a copy of the Allegati di Matrimoni for Felice Santangelo and Cristina Becchinella. They were married in Bagheria on 9 January 1881. The Pubblicazioni di Matrimonio was issued on 8 December 1880. At the bottom of this record, it states that Felice submitted a birth certificate and that he was from Palermo.
The link for the Pubblicazioni di Matrimonio is here: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-32350-8797-95?cc=2051639&wc=MM1H-X1Y:n1328397044
As I am looking for the birth of Felice, it appears that this would be a necessary set of documents to have.
Let me know what you are able to do. Thanks!
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Hi Matt
No probs,will get onto that straight away.
Ciao,
Steve
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Hi Matt,
Managed to read the document, but a bit hard in places. E-mailed Arch. di Stato Palermo with the details.
Requested details of both parents ( Felice states "ignoto" - unknown)
Also the relative birth certificates. If not,at least the details of birth and will show mother and father. If there is no father for Felice that will mean only his mothers' name.
Have replied stating they will reply as soon as possible.
See what comes back and then work from that.
Steve
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Hi Matt,
Just to keep you informed.
"Beni Culturali" have replied, I need to write to the "Comune di Bagheria" for info after 1865.
Sent an e-mail this morning. Hopefully in the week should have a reply.
Steve
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Thanks, Steve. Does this mean then that the "Alegatti di Matrimonio" are in the Bagheria archives?
Also, I think I may have found Felice Santangelo's birth registration. I think he was born on 13 January 1854 in Palermo. I had the index checked and it says:
Santangelo, Felice: 13 genn. 1854--Pr.--v. 721--n. 34
I don't know if this helps you in anyway, but I believe this is his birth entry. I'm not sure what "Pr." and "v. 721" stand for, but the year matches with his age (26) at the time of both the marriage publication and marriage registration.
I look forward to seeing what you find!
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Hi Matt,
Thanks for the info. Bagheria should pick that up themselves and hopefully send me the actual birth certificate. Those numbers relate to our Vol and Page numbers. I am also interested in finding out who were the parents of his wife. Also why "ignoto" "unknown"- was he adopted, put in an institute when born or what.
If I manage to get the actual birth certificate it should state " son of ............ or something else.
Steve
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Steve,
It's my guess that Felice Santangelo was an abandoned baby. On the marriage registration is says "Felice Esposto Sant'Angelo." I had to do some digging about but the name "esposto" has to do with a baby being abandoned. The wikipedia entry is:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trovatello
I eagerly look forward to hearing what the archives are telling you!
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Hi Matt,
Just got a reply from the Archives. Have sent my address as they are sending me the original marriage transcripts and birth certificate for Cristina Becchinella b.05/04/1853.
Told me to e-mail Palermo for the B.C of Felice . Done that.
When I get soemthing back will let you know.
Steve
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Hi Matt (and peeps),
Arrived this morning the Marriage Certificate for Felice Sant'Angelo and Cristina Becchinella.
Also the Birth Certificate for Cristina Becchinella.
Will e-mail them to you.
Waiting now for the other certificates you asked for, which arrive shortly.
Steve
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Steve,
It's my guess that Felice Santangelo was an abandoned baby. On the marriage registration is says "Felice Esposto Sant'Angelo."
Yes, that Esposto would suggest he (or some of his paternal ancestors) was not the son of a married couple. Having said that, I have noticed other times the second surname added, and then years later the child being legitimised by the parents through a late marriage loosing that Esposto in later life. This doesn't generally happens when the surname doesn't have the second last name.
About the Santangelo, there are 3 main branches in west Sicily. Near Palermo in the town of Belmonte Mezzagno, then just in front of the Sea of Sicily in Sciacca, and near by in Castelvetrano. You'll find Santangelo also in Palermo, Trapani, Alcamo, Mazara and spread thin on the communities of the Belěci Valley and of the Madonie mountains, but take in account that Sciacca will account for half of Western Sicilian Santangelo.
The Sicilian town with probably the highest concentration of Santangelo is on the other side of the island, in Adrano. The province of Catania accounts for half of all Sicilian Santangelo.
By a weird combination, the city of Trapani in the current italian legislature is represented by an unprecedented number of senators, 3. One of these senators is Vincenzo Maurizio Santangelo.
This is Mr Santangelo's page on the Italian senate website:
http://www.senato.it/leg/17/BGT/Schede/Attsen/00029174.htm
This is Mr Santangelo's personal website:
http://www.vincenzomauriziosantangelo.it/
The chap is quite approachable, you may try to contact him and ask if someone in his family has performed genealogical investigations, and if so, if they could share those with you.