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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: muffnrob on Tuesday 31 July 12 08:28 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find information about the marriage in 1805 of HORSBURGH, JAMES, F.R.S., a distinguished hydrographer, was born at Elie, Fifeshire, September 23, 1762. or about his Ancestors and Decendents.
Can you help me?
Kind regards
Muffnrob
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There is quite a big entry for him in the Dictionary of National Biography. I suspect I'm not allowed to quote this in full (copyright) but it's accessible at public libraries. It states
As with many from East India Company service overseas, Horsburgh became an old man with young children. At forty-three he married Elizabeth Longworth (d. 1829) on 14 October 1805, and they settled first at 6 Savile Row, Walworth. Their first daughter, Jane Frances, was born on 29 August 1808; a second daughter, Elizabeth, followed in 1815 and a son, James, in 1821 when Horsburgh himself was fifty-nine.
It also refers among its sources to these, all of which might be worth investigating:
‘Biographical memoir of James Horsburgh, esq., hydrographer to the East India Company’, Naval Chronicle, 28 (1812), 441–51 · GM, 2nd ser., 6 (1836), 98–9 · Journal of the Royal Geographical Society, 7 (1837), vi · A. Day, The admiralty hydrographic service, 1795–1919 (1967) · H. R. Mill, The record of the Royal Geographical Society, 1830–1930 (1930) ·
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Thankyou Graham for your help it is very much appreciated.
Kind regards
Rob Hay-Hendry
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Hi Rob
James Horsburgh's eldest daughter Jane Frances married her first cousin James Horsburgh McDonald 13/01/1835 at St Giles, Camberwell. He was in the Bengal Artillery and ended as a Lieut Colonel. They were childless but may have had custody of sister Elizabeth's 7 children after her death 14/06/1855 "at the home of her brother in law Lieut Col McDonald". I don't know what happened to her husband James Lane who was a solicitor but the Lane children seem to have had strong connections with India and the army. One of her descendents was William Horsburgh Lane, Lieut Col in Indian Army then after retirement archaeologist, author and Loch Ness monster hunter (honestly).
James Horsburgh junior was a clergyman and had 5 children, his descendents were clergymen, teachers , authors and one was a missionary to China.
This family is quite interesting to research it makes a change from ag labs and fishermen.
I hope this is of use to you.
Ellen
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There is a marble tablet on the wall inside Elie parish church in memory of James Horsburgh, containing a summary of his life and achievements, and with a carved ship in relief.
Ellen, your comment about ag. labs. and fishermen comes into the category of "spoke too soon", for I'm about to lower the tone by suggesting that James Horsburgh FRS was related to the well-known (in Fife) fishing Horsburghs of Pittenweem from whom I claim descent myself.
Here are some fragments from my research into the Horsburghs over the years. I'd be glad of any comments and/or corrections from fellow researchers.
I believe all these Horsburghs can be traced back to William Horsburgh, shoemaker, and his wife Mary Bickerton who had at least 9 children in Elie, to my knowledge, between 1695 and 1720. The line of descent that I know most about is from their youngest son George Horsburgh, also a shoemaker, born in 1720, who settled in St. Monans after marrying Elspeth Stevenson there.
Their son George Horsburgh married Janet Thomson in Pittenweem and became a fisherman there. They were the ancestors of the Horsburghs who are still in Pittenweem and towns round about to this day. My paternal grandmother Jessie Horsburgh Cunningham in Cellardyke was called after her Pittenweem granny Jessie Horsburgh, a granddaughter of George Horsburgh and Janet Thomson.
Back to James Horsburgh FRS. He was the son of William Horsburgh and Jean Given. I suspect - but can't prove - that William Horsburgh was a son of James Horsburgh born in Elie in 1704 to William Horsburgh and Mary Bickerton. Any advance on that?
A retired master mariner friend of mine told me once that there is a Horsburgh Rock near the entrance to Singapore harbour, called after the great hydrographer.
Harry
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Horsburgh Lighthouse Foundation Stone in Horsburgh Lighthouse on Pedra Branca island, was laid in the presence of Governor William J. Butterworth and several distinguished guests, and took place at 1:00 pm, on 24 May 1850.
Description
Inscribed on copper plate, the Foundation Stone reads:
In the year of Our Lord 1850 and in the 13th year of the reign of Queen Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland:
The Most Noble James Andrew, Marquis of Dalhousie, Kt., being Governor-General of British India:
The Foundation Stone of the Light-house to be erected on Pedra Branca,
and dedicated to the Memory of the Celebrated Hyrdographer JAMES HORSBURGH, F.R.S. was laid on the 24th day of May,
the anniversary of the Birth-day of Her Most Gracious Majesty,
by the Worshipful Master M. F. Davidson, Esq.,
and the Brethren of the Lodge Zetland in the East, no. 748,
In the presence of the Governor of the Straits Settlements,
and many of the British and Foreign Residents of Singapore.
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I have HORSBURGH in my tree as well
William b 29 Mar 1884 Pittenweem parents Lochart and Catherine Turpie BOWMAN married my Catherine SMITH born 3 May 1885 Cellardyke. They married 9 Jan 1914 Cellardyke
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Hi Rob
Yes I am descended from th Pittenweem Horsburgh's. My grandfather Andrew Horsburgh was a son of Robert Horsburgh and Mary Flett. Robert was a grandson of the first Lock Horsburgh. There are many many fishermen, seamen and fish traders on this line.
Horsburgh lighthouse was built by subscription from the merchants of the Anglo Chinese trade in gratitude for Horsburgh's accurate charts making voyages safer (and hence more profitable). I can't help but wonder if any of the money for the lighthouse came from the opium trade?
Ellen
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Hi Ellen
Your Granfather Andrew was the brother of my Grandfather James Flett so I think that makes us 3rd cousins.
Thanks for your help maybe we can collaborate some more.
Kind regards
Rob Hay-Hendry
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Rob, just to clarify things for your many readers here, can I be pedantic and say that your grandfather was James Flett Horsburgh, not just James Flett.
I used to correspond with and visit a relative of Ellen's in my home town of Cellardyke who was a distant cousin of mine and who was interested in her family history, and although her (our!) Cellardyke and Pittenweem ancestors were easy enough to research, we struggled with the Fletts, trying to work out who was from Portknockie and who from neighbouring Findochty. Robert Horsburgh and Mary Flett were married in Findochty, but in the later censuses Mary claimed to have been born in Portknockie.
I was told that after Mary Flett moved to Pittenweem, she sang its praises to her family back home, so they packed all their worldly goods into their boat and moved to P'weem. There are still descendants of the Fletts living locally. My sister's late mother-in-law in Pittenweem was one.
One interesting thing about the P'weem Horsburghs is the incidence of multiple births, not just twins but several sets of triplets, long before the days of fertility treatment. Robert Horsburgh and Mary Flett's son George Horsburgh (b.1864) was grandfather of the Lindsay triplets who started and finished at St. Andrews University on the same day. I think they all became science teachers. Two of them, Beatrice and Preston, taught at my old school, the Waid Academy in Anstruther. While I was there Beatrice married my Latin teacher, and Preston was my biology teacher in 2nd year.
Harry
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Hary/Rob
The problem tracing Mary Flett may be because she was born Mary Wilson 05/03/1855 in Portknockie to unmarried mother Margaret Wilson domestic servant Macduff.
Margaret Wilson didn't marry John Flett until23/10/1857 in Portknockie.
In 1861 John and Margaret were in Caithness with 2 younger daughters but Mary was recorded as Mary Wilson with her maternal grandmother Helen Wilson(nee Falconer). and uncle Joseph Wilson at 16 Portknockie.
In 1871 Mary was Mary Flett, domestic servant unengaged at 10 Portknockie with great aunt Margaret Falconer (recorded as sister).
So John may not be Mary's birth father although she did name one of her sons after him.
John Flett may have had good reasons to leave Banff, I have seen him involved in 2 court cases on involving debts regarding his fishing boat and in 1881 one being fined for failing to educate 3 of his children (George, Isabella and Joseph). Also I believe there was a reduction in the fish in the Moray Firth at this time.
Mary Flett married in 1876, John and Margaret were still in Banff in 1881 and must have moved to Pittenweem in the following years as John died in Pittenweem in 1889.
Ellen
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Hi Rob
Yes I am descended from th Pittenweem Horsburgh's. My grandfather Andrew Horsburgh was a son of Robert Horsburgh and Mary Flett. Robert was a grandson of the first Lock Horsburgh. T
Ellen
Talking of the first Lock Horsburgh (b.1787 in Pittenweem) do you know any family stories about how he got his name? The story I was told was that a ship was passing down the Forth and it put up a flag for 'pilot required', which always prompted a number of local fishermen to sail out and offer their services. The one who was taken on board got talking to the captain of the vessel, and happened to mention that his wife was expecting a baby. The ship's captain said that if the baby was a boy, he would be honoured if it was called after him. His name must have been Captain Lock, and the fisherman must have been George Horsburgh(Thomson) of Pittenweem.
I'm not sure if I believe all that. I've noticed that the name Lock (Horsburgh) is occasionally spelt Loch in some records, and I know that a merchant called David Loch, who lived near Anstruther, served as Inspector of Fisheries at about this time and wrote reports on the local fishing based on visits to the fishing towns and conversations with the fishermen. George Horsburgh may have encountered him at some point.
The other big question is, why did Lock Horsburgh and Betty Anderson's son Lock Horsburgh start calling himself Lockhart in later life, a form of the name which has been followed by many of his descendants?
Harry
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Ellen, I was wondering where you came across Eliz. (Horsburgh) Lane's death on 14/6/1855? I have been searching for several years without success. Maybe I just missed something obvious!
I've also been unable to trace James Lane's death, who as you say was a solicitor (at Herne Hill). I think their children's India connections may have been influenced by Uncle James Macdonald.
I'm a direct descendant of James Horsburgh the hydrographer, via James & Eliz Lane and their youngest child Alfred Luther Lane, who was a colonel in the army, mainly in India but also with spells in Mauritius and Cape Town, where his fourth child, my paternal grandmother, was born in 1889.
Thanks for the enlightening information - I also hadn't realised that Jane Horsburgh and James Macdonald were cousins.
Best wishes
Richard
Hi Rob
James Horsburgh's eldest daughter Jane Frances married her first cousin James Horsburgh McDonald 13/01/1835 at St Giles, Camberwell. He was in the Bengal Artillery and ended as a Lieut Colonel. They were childless but may have had custody of sister Elizabeth's 7 children after her death 14/06/1855 "at the home of her brother in law Lieut Col McDonald". I don't know what happened to her husband James Lane who was a solicitor but the Lane children seem to have had strong connections with India and the army. One of her descendents was William Horsburgh Lane, Lieut Col in Indian Army then after retirement archaeologist, author and Loch Ness monster hunter (honestly).
James Horsburgh junior was a clergyman and had 5 children, his descendents were clergymen, teachers , authors and one was a missionary to China.
This family is quite interesting to research it makes a change from ag labs and fishermen.
I hope this is of use to you.
Ellen
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Hi Richard
I got the burial record for Elizabeth on ancestry, the image can be found by searching Surrey burials.
The death notice was in the Morning Chronicle Mon June 18 1855,
" On the 14th inst at the house of her brother in law, Lieut-Col MacDonald, Elizabeth wife of J Lane esq and daughter of the late Capt Horsburgh FRS Hydrographer to the HEI Co; age 40.
(I have access to the online Gale Group newspaper archive via my local library ticket).
Presumably James Lane died sometime after this date because he isn't referred to as being "late", but it doesn't explain why Elizabeth died at her brother-in-laws house.
Ellen
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Thanks very much Ellen.
I think James Lane must have died before the 1861 census anyway - he doesn't appear then or subsequently, and I have searched for him fruitlessly elsewhere. The death record is difficult to pin down because JL is a fairly common name and he may have died before they started recording age on death certificates. I once took a chance on ordering a d.c. for a JL who died in Camberwell in the mid-1850s and it turned out to be an unrelated child.
An odd aspect to this is that in 1851 Elizabeth's b-in-law James Macdonald was living in South Mimms, whilst the Lane family was at Herne Hill. In 1861, James Macdonald & wife were at Herne Hill with three of James & Eliz Lane's children - although I have no proof that it was in the same house. I have long been working on the assumption that both James & Eliz Lane had died between 1851 and 1861 and that James Macdonald had taken over their house. However, your identification of Eliz Lane's death at 'the house of her brother in law' *might* imply that, although J Lane Esq was not noted as 'late', he had in fact died before his wife, and perhaps that James Macdonald had bought the house in order to provide income for his sister in law?? She would then indeed have died at her brother in law's house, albeit having lived there for a good number of years.
Maybe I should resuscitate my library ticket and investigate Gale Group's (Cengage's) records. Oddly enough I spend my working life negotiating with publishers for access to electronic resources on behalf of UK Higher Education!
Do you have a direct connection to the Horsburghs or is it just passing curiosity?!
Richard
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Richard
I am a Horsburgh, but not a direct descendent of Captain James Horsburgh. My 3x Gt Grandfather Lock Horsburgh was Captain James' 2nd cousiin. Both were descended from William Horsburgh 1672-1754 Shoemaker of Crail. I sometimes get diverted of my direct line when I spot something interesting.
I suppose that Elizabeth lane's death certificate might show if her husband was still alive if she was described as a wife or widow. I've just taken a quick look at the Post Office Directory for 1855 which shows Lane, James esq in Herne Hill, so it would appear that he was alive in 1855. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any directories for the later 1850's on the Historical Directories site.
Ellen
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Excuse my butting in, but are you sure, Ellen, that the Horsburgh line goes back to Crail? I've seen that theory advanced before, but I have them descending from William Horsburgh, shoemaker, and his wife Mary Bickerton in Elie, about nine miles west of Crail. Admittedly there were Horsburgh shoemakers in Crail too.
I have literally just heard from another Horsburgh descendant who has a query in the latest Fife Family History Society journal. He claims, like me, to be a 3 x great-grandson of the original Lock Horsburgh (b.1787). He lives in Kenya, and I'm waiting to hear more from him.
Harry
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Ellen - I also had a look at the 1855 directory, and there is no J Macdonald listed at Herne Hill. Plot thickens!
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BTW another direct descendant of James Horsburgh is Margaret, Countess of Mar, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Mar,_31st_Countess_of_Mar.
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Harry
I have been trying to remember my reasons for linking William Horsburgh with Crail. I think it came down to name, date(there is a William Horsburgh, apprentice shoemaker 1685, in Crail) and occupation. This is not, I agree definitive but it was my best guess at the time. finding a marriage for William Horsburgh and Mary Bickerton would be a great help or, identifying an origin for Mary Bickerton. Anyway I think there probably would be some link between Horsburghs who were shoemakers in such close proximity, who was the first cobbler?
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Richard
I think I might have found a trail for James Lane.
Charles Henry Lane, B 1846 Herne Hill, (son of James Lane and Elizabeth Horsburgh); 1851 census, Herne Hill with parents and siblings; 1861, Herne Hill with Uncle James Horsburgh McDonald and siblings; 1871, Herne Hill occupation teacher, with Uncle James and brother John McDonald Lane; 1881 Wellington College, occupation assistant schoolmaster. After that I had no trace of him, but I have just found a record of his death and funeral in the Reading Mercury Sat 6 Dec 1884. (via findmypast). The account is very detailed and full of Victorian relish for sentimentality and funeral pomp.
He was the Bursar of Wellington College and died 29th Nov 1884, funeral Mon 1st Dec, Funeral procession 250 yards long, list of mourners, hymns sung at the service in Crowthorne, "Dead March" in Saul as coffin carried to the grave which was lined with green moss and white chrysanthemums and description of the coffin(polished oak with massive brass handles).
The interesting thing is that the leading mourners were "deceased's father and two nephews", the two nephews could have been Clayton Arbuthnot Lane who was 16, and his brother ,Frank McDonald Lane who was 14.
I checked the National Probate Calendar (ancestry) which has Charles Henry Lane, late of Wellington College, probate granted to James Lane of Torrington in the county of Devon , Gentleman, the Father and next of kin!
This suggests that James Lane was alive in 1884, but where he had been and why were his children living with Uncle James H McDonald?
This might be a massive red herring but all the evidence seems to fit, so good luck.
Ellen
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I believe that shoemaker was the commonest of all trades, and Horsburgh was a common surname in the East Neuk, but I agree it's tempting to imagine that the Elie and Crail Horsburghs were related.
I know of 10 children born to William Horsburgh, shoemaker in Elie, and his wife Mary Bickerton between 1695 and 1720. Haven't got a marriage for them, or a birth for Mary, but a David Bickertoune in Dysart and Marion Dais in Elie were married on 1st December 1671. Another (or the same?) David Bickertoune married Margaret Harvie in 1678 in Elie. I think the DB from Dysart moved to Elie after marrying Marion Dais/Deas then after her death he married Mgt. Harvie. Well, I like things nice and neat!
I seem to be on a roll with Horsburghs at the moment. In my last post I mentioned a fellow Horsburgh descendant in Kenya. He has been researching our ancestor Lock Horsburgh's career at the whaling, and has identified the whaling ships in which he served. An article he has written will be in the next issue of the Fife Family History Society journal.
Harry
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I have information on a James Horsburgh who lived in Lochmaloney House not far from Kilmany in Fife. A relative, James Greig, of whom I am a direct descendant was reported as working for him. In the 1861 Census he was working as a general servant to James Horsburgh, Landed proprietor, and was living in accommodation in Lochmalony Mansion in Kilmany. He had worked in Lochmaloney house for over 20 years.
If this is the same James Horsburgh, then I have information and photographs of Lochmaloney House.
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I have information on a James Horsburgh who lived in Lochmaloney House not far from Kilmany in Fife. A relative, James Greig, of whom I am a direct descendant was reported as working for him. In the 1861 Census he was working as a general servant to James Horsburgh, Landed proprietor, and was living in accommodation in Lochmalony Mansion in Kilmany. He had worked in Lochmaloney house for over 20 years.
If this is the same James Horsburgh, then I have information and photographs of Lochmaloney House.
This James Horsburgh was born in Edinburgh in 1810 to Major Horsburgh of Pitbladdo and his lady wife. So rather a posh Horsburgh. But on looking him up in the 1861 census of Kilmany I was interested to see that he had a servant called Agnes Peebles, aged 51, born Ceres. I thought I knew who she was and confirmed my suspicions from Scotlandspeople. Agnes died in St. Andrews in 1881, aged 70 "former housekeeper", and her parents were Alexander Peebles and Jane Mackie. I have extensive files on the Peebles families of Fife and that Alexander Peebles was a brother of my 4 x great-grandfather James Peebles in Carnbee. So thanks for that!
Harry
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My mother is Doris Horsburgh born in Glasgow 79yrs old today. We live in Caanda. Her mother was Mary Horsburgh and dad Joseph Horsburgh. Hope this helps She had a brother James. Bryan