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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Nodrogw on Tuesday 14 August 12 18:46 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find out anything I can about the children and grandchildren of George Scott and Ann Hogg who were my GGG grandparents. Their three older daughters were Mary, Ann and Jane. One of them emigrated to Nebraska. I believe it was Jane.Ann had a child, Georgina Nichol by William Nichol in December 1849.She also gave birth to Jane Wylie by John Wylie in November 1853. Mary gave birthto George Blyth by Walter Blyth, in January 1853. All of the grandchildren were brought up by George and Ann Scott, their grandparents. It would seem that they were all made pregnant by family of those to whom they were in service. I believe that George Blyth took the name of Scott by the time of the 1871 census. If anyone can give me any help or advice as to what became of any of them, I would be most grateful. I do know that Georgina Nichol became Georgina GHraham at the time of her marriage
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Hi Is this therefore Georgina in 1871?
Robert Graham 36 occ Coal Miner b Westerkirk
Georgina 23 b Canonbie
Ann 0 b Canonbie
Residing at Rowanburn, Canonbie
Census ref RG10/814/1/31
In 1901 now a widow, she has a Margaret Scott aged 42 single b Canonbie as a visitor
Census ref RG13/.814/9/5
Keyboard86
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From this post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,554164.0.html
Did you get anywhere confirming details of daughter Jane and her marriage/life mentioned in Carlisle?
I think Jane Scott one of the daughters of George Scott married a man named Mathew and lived in Hawick Street Carlisle. Sorry I do not have the surname, but I do have a photo of Jane and her husband. George Scott was my husband’s GGGGG Grandfather. Ann Scott’s daughter Georgina was his GGG Grandmother. Can post a photo if you are interested.
Monica :)
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Yes, that is the right Georgina. Regrettably, I have been unable to tie in Jane in Carlisle with bthe Jane I am looking for. There is another Jane Scott born in 1834 in Canonbie who was married in St. Peter ad Vincula in The Tower of London, but I have not been able to tie this in either. Thanks for looking.
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Just throwing up ideas as it can be hard to know what lines of searches someone has followed. I can see from general online info that you have been searching for a while...
You have access to Ancestry I think from what you have mentioned. Someone there has daughter Mary married to a Robert Vivers https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTLR-PVZ They show with their family in Hollows, Canonbie. In 1861, a visitor, Jane Scott, 26 and a dressmaker is showing in the household. Have you discounted this Mary and Jane?
Monica
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Gordon, just checked, that marriage in January 1856 in Canonbie for Mary Scott to Robert Vivers is the right one. Likely father George was also a witness going by the names. By default maybe ;) that entry in 1861 may have sister Jane is the household:
Robert Vivers 44, Road Contractor b. Canonbie
Mary Vivers 31, wife b. Canonbie
Robert Vivers 4
Richard Vivers 2
Margaret Vivers 1 Month
Jane Scott 26, visitor, dressmaker b. Canonbie
Address: Hollows
1871, the family have grown and now living at Rowanburn, where they still show in 1881. Some children's entries here www.rootschat.com/links/0py1/ from familysearch.
SP show a possible death for Mary Scott in 1888 in Canonbie.
Monica
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Gordon, been having another look around with fresher eyes (amazing how supper can recharge the brain!). Wondering whether Jane actually stayed around Canonbie. Likely that entry in 1861 with the Vivers was her from what we now have. I saw a marriage for a Jane Scott to a Robert Warwick here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTLR-5QG
Only two girls I think born to them:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYPF-SZV
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYPF-75M
Their 1881 census entry - everyone born in Canonbie:
Robert Warwick 49 Disabled Joiner
Jane Warwick 47
Mary Ann Warwick 10
Margaret Warwick 8
Jane Brough 14, servant
Address: Park Head, Canonbie
MI details here: (Fallen over) In memory of Robert WARWICK who died at Hollowshillgate 21st February 1888 aged 56 years. Also Jane SCOTT wife of the above Robert WARWICK who died there 2nd March 1889 aged 55 years. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/G56t7H3_OShiSANMpfuJZdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0 Memorials from Canonbie Churchyard also included here http://longtown19.website.orange.co.uk/ including what you have already for George Scott and family.
Also....a Robert Warwick was the second witness along with a George Scott to the marriage of Mary Scott to Robert Vivers...so looks promising ::) But, you would need to confirm....
So, re Nebraska, and subject to confirmation re Warwick and Scott marriage, that could only leave Ann ?!
Monica
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Thank you so much for your interest and replies. I shall certainly follow all this up. I think you may be right that it would be Ann who went to Nebraska. Will need to keep on looking. Thanks again.
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Hi Monica
I have just obtained a marriage certificate for Mary Scott and Robert Vivers. It is interesting to note that Robert's mothers maiden name was Warwick. This means that it is extremely likely that we are looking at the right Jane Scott and a marriage to Robert Warwick. I shall have to get some more credits for Scotlands People and continue searching. I also got the death certificate for Mary for 1888 and this was also the right Mary. Thanks again for your interest and help
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That great :) Lots there hopefully to follow up on and determine. You had all the other death details didn't you (Margaret, Robert, Mina)?
Regarding Ann, do you only have Georgina as her daughter? Have you checked Georgina's marriage and/or death certs? Sometimes you get clues as to what happened to mother from those types of certs with a possible inclusion of a new married surname for example.
Monica
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Hi
Yes I have looked at the marriage certificate for Georgina Nichol and Robert Graham. It shows Georgina as illegitimate, and her father's name as William Nicholl. He was a cooper. Her mother is shown as Ann Curl, maiden name of Scott, but I have been unable to unearth any information as to when she became Ann Curl. It is also interesting to note that Robert Warwick was 1st Witness at this wedding.
Regards
Gordon
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Like you, struggling with the Curl surname and picking anything up on this :-\
Is it very clearly written on the cert as Curl (even with variants such as Curley etc)? As you know, sometimes the image can be faint which can make deciphering a little tricky.
I thought the last sighting of Ann might have been this one, with her age a few years light, from 1861:
Ann Scott, 26, domestic servant b. Canonbie. This is at 1 Teviot Crescent, Hawick, Rox. in the household of a John F Wilson, a Wool Merchant and Skinner.
Monica
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The marriage that you refer to between Robert Warwick and Jane Scott, and which you provide the link to family search for does not appear to show up on Scotlands People. Can you give me any reason why this might be so, and any tips on how I can try to get a certificate.
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTLR-5QG shows the marriage on the last day of 1868. It must have been registered in the early days of 1869 as this is when it shows on SP I think.
Monica
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A slight deviation from the main subject, but can you say if there are any old maps anywhere, which might show where the blacksmith's forge was in Hollows in the late 1800s.
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Hi Gordon
Struggling to find anything specific online to the level of the Smithy at Hollows.
There are a number of maps of the Canonbie area circa mid 1850s on the NLS site you could check through http://maps.nls.uk/os/25inch/dumfriesshire2.html
There is also this map from Canmore http://canmoremapping.rcahms.gov.uk/index.php?action=do_advanced&idnumlink=90350
You might want to check with the local archives www.dumgal.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2297 regarding maps of the area for the period you are looking at and, more importantly, to the level of detail you need.
The photos here from Linda www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=fpvqjpnabpvb7moo906q1q5p56&topic=554164.new likely give you a more specific location for the possible building(s) of the Smithy.
Also, as an aside and whilst looking for maps...found these photos of Rowanburn where we had Jane Scott and Robert Warwick www.rootschat.com/links/0q47/ (Have you been able to confirm whether we have the correct Jane?).
Monica
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From this map (1862), www.british-history.ac.uk/mapsheet.aspx?compid=55153&sheetid=3095&ox=4133&oy=1823&zm=1&czm=1&x=314&y=209 - not named specifically as other buildings are.
Monica
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Yes, I can confirm that we have the right Jane, who married Robert Warwick in 1868. Of George Scott's children, this only leaves Ann who gave birth to Georgina Nicholl in 1851, and Jane Wylie in 1853. As she is the only one left, she must be the daughter who died in Nebraska, as stated on the Canonbie memorial stone. However, how do I find out when she left or whether she married before she left.
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That is good news, Gordon :) So, confirmed, Ann it is.
Can we just check on dates?
Keyboard's 1871 census for Georgina shows her already married to Robert Graham - was this in February 1870? So, from the cert, mother Ann shows as married to x Curl by then?
What happened to her other daughter Jane Wylie, b. 1853?
So the options:
- She travelled to the US, single for work and married there?
- She married in England - FreeBMD should give some clues on possible marriages.
- She married in Scotland - Scotlands People would be the main official source for info.
- FamilySearch should also be a good index to check on, particularly for Scotland for this period.
The surname Curl is likely to have lots of variants including possibly 'Mc' and extensions of Curl/e/y etc.
Would also be good to get a further check on the married name for Ann. Possibly from Georgina's death cert or daughter Jane Wylie if anything can be sourced for her?
Monica
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Who were the parents/mother of the two other grandchildren from 1861?
William, aged 4, b. Canonbie
Margaret, aged 3, b. Canonbie
Monica
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I regret that I do not know the answer to that. It cannot have been Mary or Jane as we have them more or less sewn up. There is of course Margaret weho remained a spinster until her death, and Robert who took over as blacksmith when his father died. That leaves Wilhelmina. The granddaughter annie was Wilhelmonas. She remained a spinster and spent some time as a grocer in Langholm, and her daughter annie lived with her. Annie then married a Mr; Heeney who was a postmaster and grocer in Carlisle. Wilhelmina went to live with them, and she died in Carlisle. She was interred in her parents grave in Canonbie. George Scotts oldest son John, by Ann Taylor is my GG Grandfather. He and his wife had a son William of a similar age to the one who went to live with George and his wife. This William died in Kelso when he was 23 and is interred with his parents in Annan. I think that the name is coincidental. I dont think we will be able to find out much about these two grandchildren
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Hi Is this therefore Georgina in 1871?
Can you help me please, I would like to look at the 1901 Census for Georgina Graham, but cant get it up on Ancestry or Family Searcg. Can you say what I might be doing wrong.
Regards
Gordon
Robert Graham 36 occ Coal Miner b Westerkirk
Georgina 23 b Canonbie
Ann 0 b Canonbie
Residing at Rowanburn, Canonbie
Census ref RG10/814/1/31
In 1901 now a widow, she has a Margaret Scott aged 42 single b Canonbie as a visitor
Census ref RG13/.814/9/5
Keyboard86
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From the quote I just put up, can you help me to find the 1901 census you refer to. I have tried Ancestry and Family search but with no luck.
Regards
Gordon
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From Pam's details from earlier. Saw this a couple of days ago. Think it is this one, with the age for Georgina mis-transcribed:
Georgina Graham 31, Miners Widow (coal) b. Canonbie
Janie Graham 20, daughter
Robert Graham 9, son
Maggie Scott 42, visitor, Domestic Servant, b. Canonbie
Address: Hollowshillgate, Canonbie
I also thought Maggie Scott above was one of the grandchildren of George and Ann that needed to be figured out (along with William b. 1856/7 and Mary b. 1860c).
Monica
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The 1891 census shows that Maggie is living with her Aunt Wilhelmina in High Street Langholm. Wilhelmina is a grocer and Maggie is also shown as a grocer. By 1901, Wilhelmina had moved to Carlisle to live with her daughter Annie Heeney, nee Scott. Maggie must have gone to stay with Georgina by 1901. There is a Maggie Scott living at 23 Charlotte Street, Carlisle in 1911. She is a grocer. She died in carlisle in 1928, so I will have to get hold of a death certificate to see if it is the same Maggie.
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Pity if she died in England given English death certs don't include the same info as Scottish ones.
Monica
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Does anyone know what happened to the blacksmith's forge in Hollows after the death of Robert Scott in 1900. Also, are the buildings still there?
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From the quote I just put up, can you help me to find the 1901 census you refer to. I have tried Ancestry and Family search but with no luck.
Better late than never
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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George Scott dies in 1873 and Robert Scott died in 1900. I regret I have no information concerning the 1901 census.
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Does anyone know what happened to the blacksmith's forge in Hollows after the death of Robert Scott in 1900. Also, are the buildings still there?
The first question is where is or was Hollows.
In the 1881 census Robert Scott, unmarried, 42 is in Hollows with mother Ann Scott, widow, 82, niece Maggie Scott, unmarried, 22, and aunt Jane Scott, widow, 74. It's in Enumeration District 10 of Canonbie.
The other places in this ED are Brockwoodlee, Grain, Loophill, Newbie, Blackrigg, Kerr, Irvine Lodge, Auchinrivock, Crofthead, Hagg on Esk, Whiteknowe, Knittyholm (mapped as Nittyholm), Enthorn, Athsteads (mapped as Tathsteads) Braidridding (mapped as Braidridland)and Gilnockie Tower, all of which I have found on the Ordnance Survey maps, and O Coout (which I suspect is a massively mangled mistranscription of Tarcoon) and Saughtree, which I have not found.
These places are all on the west side of the River Esk and north of the village of Canonbie.
They completely surround a place marked on the map as Holehouse, but there is no place called Holehouse in ED10. Therefore I deduce that Holehouse and Hollows are just different spellings of the same place. Scrutiny of the Valuation Rolls confirms this as several places listed as Hollows in one year seem to be Holehouse in another, and vice versa.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.1&lat=55.09455&lon=-2.96841&layers=168&b=1
If you slide the blue button to the left, you will see that the footprint of the buildings in the satellite view still matches the footprint on the map, which was surveyed in 1898, with one significant difference, which is that the site of the building labelled 'Smithy' on the 1898 map is now on the opposite side of a new road, and as far as I can see from the satellite view there is no longer a building there. So I think that answers your second question.
As to the first, Robert Scott is listed as tenant of a house at Holehouse, Canonbie, in the 1886 and 1895 Valuation Rolls. In 1905 there are three tenants in Holehouse who were not there in 1896: George Law, George Tweddle and William Wallace. Law and Wallace are still there in 1915.
The 1901 census (transcription) shows George Law as a bootmaker. George Tweddle was a brickmaker, and William Wallace was a forester. So it may be that one of these three took over the house, but did not work as a blacksmith; or perhaps the smithy house occupied by Robert Scott was vacant on the day of the 1901 census.
The way to check this further would be to look through the originals of the 1901 census at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - it depends how much you wish to spend on this.
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Thanks you so much for all the information you have given me. I shall start processing it. Thanks again for your time and trouble.