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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: stewrat83 on Wednesday 29 August 12 14:37 BST (UK)
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There is a belief in my wife's family that they once owned a fishing boat in the east neuk.
It was almost certainly based in Cellardyke, almost certainly owned by a Reid, and probably not earlier than late 19th Century.
I've tracked down a lot of the Reids, but is there somewhere I can search for a boat owned by any of them without knowing which one?
Thanks
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I've done a lot of research on Cellardyke families and I also have a lot of notes on boat ownership from the Anstruther Fishery Office records. Can you give me a clue as to which Reid(s) you are interested in?
Here are some examples. I'll put the wife's maiden name in brackets as they did in the East Neuk to distinguish men with the same name -
On Dec. 7th 1874 Henry Reid(Reid) registered the "Alexander Gardner". He also had a boat called "Cedric the Saxon" (a character in Sir Walter Scott's "Ivanhoe").
On March 12th David Reid (unmarried) and William Simpson registered the "Jessie Lindsay Meldrum". There was a girl of that name in Crail.
On December 18th 1876 Adam Reid(Clark) registered the "Planter".
On February 21st 1877 Adam Reid and John Stewart registered the "Flower of the Forest".
A few more at random -
Thomas Reid(Young) had the "Mon Ami".
Adam Reid(Wood), skipper of the "Venus", was drowned in 1855 when she went down with all hands. I think his son Adam Reid(Jack) was a skipper too, and I know that HIS son Adam Reid was "King of the Fishers" in Cellardyke with the "Reliance" and the "Guerdon".
That's a few of them anyway, and I'm only talking about 19th-century sailing Fifies, not 20th century steam drifters (except for the "Guerdon").
I'm descended from two different families of Reids in Cellardyke. You may not be surprised to learn that it was one of the commonest surnames there for hundreds of years!
Harry
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Hello Harry
Thanks for those notes - and for your book which I am reading while doing this research!
While I am at the relatively early stages of this journey, I am well aware of the number of Reids, and will not be surprised to see the various strands intertwine at different points as we fill in the blanks.
The Reids I am interested in, working backwards are:
David Reid (Dougal) B 1861 - he owned a house in Dove Street (a key location for our Reids) which may have been the subject of confused mythology about "property" in the family.He had a brother Henry (B c1866).
Henry Reid (Wood) B. c1833
David Reid (Tough) B. 1799
David Reid (Boyter) B. 1764.
That's the main line, there are of course siblings along the way (sometimes many) who could have owned boats - or married into them.
Couple of Reids who owned boats but aren't relatives:
The David Reid, D. 1831, also with a son David (who died young), owner of the "Margaret and Elizabeth" - named for his daughters - is not (yet!) a relative.
Henry Reid who owned the "Lord Melbourne" - and died on it with 2 brothers in 1842, is part of a Reid family that joined ours 2 generations later in 1897 when his brother Adam's grandson Robert Alexander Reid married Sarah Julia Webster Reid.
Interested to see if you know any of these. I havent seen any crossover in our trees, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen sometime.
Thanks
Stewart
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Hi. Yes indeed, most of the names you mention are familiar. I hope you enjoy my book! The Adam Reid pictured on the cover was a cousin of my great-grandmother Margaret Watson. You'll see my Reid ancestors in the WATSON family-tree at the back of the book. My great-great-grandmother Margaret Reid (Mrs. William Watson) was the daughter of Adam Reid and Isabella Scott, ancestors, I think, of all or most of the later Adam Reids. Not only is Reid one of the oldest recorded names in Cellardyke (often spelt, and pronounced, Red) but even in modern times they seem mainly to have lived in the oldest part of Cellardyke, near the harbour in Shore Street and Dove Street.
I see you are back as far as David Reid(Boyter). He was a brother of the above Adam Reid(Scott), their parents being Henry Reid (b.1715) and Katherine Fowler (m.1746), and their grandparents Henry Reid and Grizal Fowler.
In that family the names Henry and Adam have been carried on in every generation up to the present. There's another family of Reids in Cellardyke which have had lots of sons called John, and I'm descended from them too.
An awful lot of Reids were lost at sea, including 4 sons of David Reid and Margaret Boyter, also 2 sons of Adam Reid and Isabella Scott.
Are you based in the East Neuk yourself, or are you part of the Cellardyke "diaspora" overseas?
Harry
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Fascinating stuff - looks like it wont be long before our trees overlap.
We live in Glenrothes, so we're fortunate that we can physically place of a lot of what we are discovering, and can go and nosey around like we did last week to see the houses in Dove Street etc and make some sense of the multi-tenancy. You're right - there are a small number of addresses over 2 or 3 streets that crop up repeatedly over many generations.
The book is providing great background and context for our search - and highlights my shameful lack of knowledge about the big events in Scottish history that affected the lives of our ancestors.
Are the Registry Books in Kirkcaldy you mention in Appendix 3 publicly accessible?
These Reids are my wife's paternal grandmothers family and its been a great introduction to genealogy as they haven't roamed far. We've also made a start on her paternal grandfathers family, East Neuk Fowlers, mainly agricultural labourers so more mobile, but only up and down the coastal hinterland following the work - Cornceres, Pitkerie, etc. Her maternal side seems to include another East Neuk clan - the Marrs - but we've not started on that.
... all much easier than my maternal grandfather who was an illegitimate, adopted and then orphaned Wilson born n Glasgow!
Stewart
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I knew Glenrothes best in my teenage years when my married sister lived in the Rimbleton area.
The Registry Books in Kirkcaldy were accessible by appointment only, from what I remember. I spent a lot more time in West Register House in Edinburgh reading the later fishery office records from about 1869 onwards.
Fowler and Marr are surnames found both in the fishing community of Cellardyke and among the farming population of Kilrenny and its hinterland. The fishing Marrs of Cellardyke go back to Charles Marr(Simpson) who was a farmer in Kilrenny. Another branch of the family settled in Edinburgh.
I also have lots of information about the Fowlers, both fishermen and farmers.
Maybe we should continue this correspondence by personal message, as it may not be of interest to other Rootschatters.
Harry
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Hi all this is amazing info, I'm related to the reids my great granddad was William Reid born 1869 and his father was Adam Reid 1837 ive only stated this research yesterday 13 feb 2018 so I'm gratefull of any info anyone can give me, thanks
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My nannas born 1901 name was Elspeth Watson Reid so I'm very interested if anyone can help with the Watson link (her father William Reid and Elspeth???) thanks
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Hi. I had forgotten all about this correspondence back in 2012. I hope Stewart is still checking this site so he can join in the discussion.
I'm pleased to be able to tell you that a photo of your great-great-grandfather Adam Reid of 19 Shore Street, Cellardyke, graces the front cover of my book "Kilrenny and Cellardyke: 800 Years of History", published in 1986 by John Donald Ltd. You can get it cheaply from Amazon, and it's also available in lots of libraries to borrow, even here in Edinburgh. Adam Reid was a cousin of my great-grandmother Margaret Watson (née Watson). Adam's father and brother went down with the "Venus" in 1855 as you can read in my book. Adam's wife was Cecilia Jack.
Your great-grandfather William Reid married Elspeth Salter Watson in Edinburgh in 1892. A lot of Cellardyke couples were married there around that time by a Rev. Webster who had been an assistant minister in Cellardyke. Elspeth was the daughter of Thomas Watson and Georgina Jack of 20 West Forth Street. Thomas was a cousin of my great-grandfather James Murray Watson.
I'll leave it there for now. Once you have posted at least three times on this forum you will be able to use the Personal Message facility and we can correspond privately. I'm not allowed by the rules of the forum to give you my email address openly here, but we will correspond in future, I'm sure!
Regards,
Harry D. Watson
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Oh my, I'm so happy to receive your reply, you have helped so so much, sadly my parents have passes so I have no one to fill in the gaps and ive been searching for years but because my nanna was born after 1901 census I was not getting far. my great grandfather William Reid was working in rosyth dockyard 1915-1926 any idea why he would have gone there? I still have no idea where she was born. Thank you so very much and for helping with the Watson link.
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I'm completely hooked now thanks to you Harry
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Thank you Harry Watson for telling me who this lady is with my Dad, Elspeth Salter Watson
1873–
Birth 18 MAR 1873 • Cellardyke, fifeshire
Death Unknown
great-grandmother
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And welcome also from another fellow-Dyker - from the Keay family ( and hello to my "cousin" Harry Watson ). Yes I recognise your Dove St line - Henry's dau Elizabeth married a George Anderson Keay, son of George Rhynd Keay, descended from a line of Alexander Keays at 8 Shore St. The line of George Keays established themselves further up Shore St., number 8 being too small to accommodate them all
[ Tell me if I'm talking rubbish, Harry ]
What made me laugh was the thought of a Dove St Reid using 8 Shore St as a quick route to the harbour - The back door of no 8 is upstairs in Dove St., so a quick run in, jump down the stairs and out through the front door - and you are bang opposite the steps. No long detour round by the Watsons at 6 Shore St.
Or a handy spot for Reids to quietly meet their Keay friends.
When we used to go for holidays in the 1940s-1950s, the only person to use the back door was the coalman.
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It never ceases to surprise me, the way that a genealogical thread like this can lie dormant for years then somebody sparks it into life again. I have twice forgotten about this correspondence, and here it comes again. It's good to see a discussion about the East Neuk for a change (no offence to West Fifers, I have West Fife ancestry too!).
If anyone wants to discuss their Cellardyke ancestry either publicly on here or privately, I'm all ears.
Harry
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Hallo Harry, or anyone else who can help. Which Keays or family married into them was in no 8 Shore St. in 1900 ? It may help to unravel our mystery photo of a christening group outside the house. Annie and her hubby John are probably down from Aberdeen, and young Alex is there too, but they are not now resident. Please.
[ There is a baby Andrew, but his grandparents live in the same house, but they are not in the picture, so he is unlikely.
I favour a baby Annie, dau of Walter and Janet, which might explain old Annie's presence. But I hadn't heard of a Walter. He is likely to be a son of Andrew and Isabella, and Andrew is son of Alex Keay and Helen Hughes ]
P.A.
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Hi. You've sent me this photo before, but I'm afraid I'm confused by all these names. You can't look up an address on Scotlandspeople, just an individual. To check who lives at a certain address you would need to look up the Valuation Rolls, but the nearest one to 1900 is 1905 and the occupants could have changed by then.
Harry
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The 1901 census shows two households at 8 Shore Street:
David Keay 42 Fisherman b. Cellardyke
Jane S Keay 40 wife b. Cellardyke
The other household:
Jessie Lawson 43 fishworker b. Cellardyke
John Lawson 16 son cooper b. Pittenweem, fifeshire
Monica
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HA HA - while typing all this, my post which I'll post anyway, has been overtaken by the post from MonicaL !!!
BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD -Thanks MonicaL
Thanks Harry, but I may have got it - let me test you with a few names before I lash out all my savings on certificates -
Alex Keay and Helen Hughes had amongst their children - Alex b abt 1823, Andrew 1825, and Thomas 1842
Alex m Ann Birrell.
Their son Alex b abt 1850 m Mary Watson
Their children included Annie* b 1874 who married in 1898 John Robertson
John and Annie had no children (and were close to my mother whose own mum Janie died young)
Andrew m 1854 Isabella Davidson./Boyter
They had a son Walter b 1866 who m Janet Barclay in 1899
Walter and Janet had a dau Annie b abt 1900
Thomas m Margaret
They had a dau Helen* b 1872
Thats the easy bit
Now in 1891 Annie* 16 and Helen* 19 are both living with Alex ( b 1823 )
This Alex is Annie's grandfather and Helen's uncle !
By 1901 Annie has married and gone to Aberdeen
Helen Keay is not yet married and is on her own aged 29. She dies in 1906 aged 35
I reckon that Annie is there not just because she has taken husband John down, but because she would have had a friendship with her cousin once removed, Helen. Which also suggests Helen is in the photo, and could be the one holding the baby.
And the baby looks about a year old, and could be Walter and Janet's Annie who was b 1900
And that could be Walter and Janet in the doorway, and they could be the residents
Which dates the photo 1901. [ The year after the Bernicia ]
What do you think, Harry. Am I on the right track, or talking rubbish ?
If you think what I have is 'possible', then I'll have a stab at the certs and censi.
Good to hear you are still there to keep us in order
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I don't know what any of these people looked like so can't argue. In my boyhood days growing up in Cellardyke I only knew, by sight, one individual called Keay, who was an elder of Cellardyke kirk.
Harry
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The 1901 census shows two households at 8 Shore Street:
David Keay 42 Fisherman b. Cellardyke
Jane S Keay 40 wife b. Cellardyke
The other household:
Jessie Lawson 43 fishworker b. Cellardyke
John Lawson 16 son cooper b. Pittenweem, fifeshire
Monica
I did a quick check on Scotlandspeople, wondering if maybe Jessie Lawson was a concealed Keay. No, she was originally Jessie Gardiner of Cellardyke, who in 1879 married Thomas Lawson in Pittenweem. Neither of them had a Keay in their immediate ancestry. But families living in the same house in Cellardyke weren't always related, so maybe Jessie and her son John were just living with the Keays at 8 Shore Street in 1901 because they got the chance of an apartment there.
Harry
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Yes I was wrong, but maybe not that far away. But thank you again Harry and MonicaL for setting me off again.
Anyway re David Keay - David Keay fisherman 43 of Fowler Street Cellardyke, son of Alex Keay and Ann Birrell m at 528 Springburn Road, Denniston, Glasgow, Jean Smith 41 of 53 John Street, Cellardyke, dau of William Smith fisherman and Jean Wallace. [ GLASGOW ! ]
And yes by the Valuation rolls, David takes over at no 8 for many years after his father dies [ and when he dies it is John Robertson ( Annie's Husband ) who takes over - which I expect will lead to Annie until she died inn 1954, and my mother, Annie's niece, sold, as she couldn't cope with the damp ]. David was not the eldest son, but was still at home when his father Alex died.
David and Jean appear as KEDY for Keay in 1911 census. I have told scotlandspeople, and suggested they reimburse me for pointing this out ( I am an Aberdonian ).
They don't appear to have any children. [ or are keeping it quiet ]
There are more Keays born around this time -
1902 Robert Andrew Keay b [ possibly illigit ] to xxxx and Agnes Keay
1902 Mary Ann Tarvit Keay b to John and Mary Ann Keay [ Wilson ]
1903 George Barclay Keay b to Walter and Janet Keay [ Barclay ]
1904 Helen Heugh Keay b to John and Mary Ann Keay
I reject the illigit one.
It may be that which are the parents can be solved if any sharp-eyed baby lover can spot if we are looking at a male or female baby, please.
And as Harry politely suggests - it doesn't matter.
[ John Boyter Keay was b 31/12/1879, son of Andrew Keay and Isabella Boyter ( they m 1854 ) John m 1900 Mary Ann Wilson ]
[ Walter Keay was b 1871, son of Andrew Keay and Isabella.
Walter m 1899 Janet Barclay ]
But it really doesn't matter who the baby is. The group could still be as I suggested, largely Keays.
John and Annie Robertson on the left, David and Jean in the doorway, Young Alex at back right, the baby's mother holding the baby, and the father on the right.
The one who might have come down from Aberdeen but didn't was Janie ( with her brother Alex and sister Annie ), but she had a baby in 1903, and married in 1905, so was ' busy '.
Having known Annie, I expect she was behind the family event. As my own granny died youngish, and Annie had no children, then Annie was like a 'granny' to us. And she had great affection for Cellardyke.
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Here's a nice photo of the former Watson houses at 6 and 7 Shore Street with your ancestral Keay house at no.8 on the right of the pic., and Dove Street behind.
https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/200380739-6-shore-street-cellardyke-kilrenny#.XjQaNOvgr1w
These houses as they stand at present are late 18th c. and listed, but would have replaced older houses. And where nos. 9-10 stand now used to be a Bishop's palace. Knocked down in the late 19th c. to build the present house. Apparently they found frescoes behind the plaster on the walls.
Harry
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David and Jean appear as KEDY for Keay in 1911 census. I have told scotlandspeople, and suggested they reimburse me for pointing this out ( I am an Aberdonian ).
They don't appear to have any children. [ or are keeping it quiet ]
Their 1911 census entry should let you confirm whether they had children (number and alive/deceased is normally included in the original entry).
Monica
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Thanks, MonicaL, yes I had checked that - its the page ( 1911 ) on which s'people have them as 'Kedy'. They are on their own in no 8. If you want any detail in Shore St then, I've got the whole page.
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Thanks for the offer, broofer ;) Sadly, no family in the area.
Monica
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http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/81Intro.html
1881 census Ships in Port database. Maybe worth a browse
deebel
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Joseph and Margaret Robertson in Aberdeen had a daughter Jessie Robertson, born 1880 who married on 2nd April 1904 a Peter Thomson who was born 1872 in Kilrenny, and whose mother's name was Keay.
I remembered that I had seen that name before, and sure enough he appears in the 1881 census in Cellardyke at 8 Shore Street -
Alexander Keay 57 fisherman, his wife Ann [ Birrel ] 58 [ my gt-gt-grandparents ]
Alexander 31 fisherman, his wife Mary [ Watson ] 33 [ my gt-grandparents ]
Annie 6 [ future wife of John Robertson a brother of Jessie ], Alexander 1, Mary Jane 2mo [ my granny ]
David 23 [ brother of Alexander 31 ]
and
Peter Thompson 8 [ described as 'grandson' of Alex 57 ]
I had kind-of-ignored this laddie in the past, but seeing him again set me off
Peter's mother was Helen Keay, a sister of Annie. Peter was born in 1872 in Kilrenny
Helen Keay 1852-1930 was a daughter of the older Alex Keay and Ann Birrell
In 1861 and 1871 she was still at home in Cellardyke
In 1881 she is East Green, Anstruther, the 28-y-o wife of David Thompson 30, with children Ann 6, Alexander 5, David 2 and Robert 4mo
( and as above, in 1881 their eldest son Peter Thomson 8 was in Cellardyke )
David Thomson and Helen Keay had married in 1872 in Cellardyke
Around 1900, the Keays moved to Aberdeen
Going back to the 1904 Thomson/Robertson marriage - look closely and you will see that my granny Mary Jane ( Janie ) was one of the witnesses, and the other was David Thomson
I like these 'circles', but this one is very small, yet involves people living 100+ miles apart.
I've tried to make it clear to myself with this wee diagram ( Tinny is the nickname of John Robertson )
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Now I'll throw in some more confusing info. I mentioned on 41 Jan 2012 that
" re David Keay - David Keay fisherman 43 of Fowler Street Cellardyke, son of Alex Keay and Ann Birrell m at 528 Springburn Road, Denniston, Glasgow, Jean Smith 41 of 53 John Street, Cellardyke, dau of William Smith fisherman and Jean Wallace "
Well the 19091 census has
David Thomson
Age 50
Estimated Birth Year 1851
Spouse's Name Helen Thomson
Where born England
Address 528 Springburn Rd
Occupation Fish Curer
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btw - I don't know about apartments in 8 Shore Street - its only 2 up and 2 down and an attic, where we slept with the lighthouse shining through that 18" square at floor level ( now has two big windows, replacing the one which was over the head of the stair )