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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Monaghan => Topic started by: owenzachary on Thursday 18 October 12 17:51 BST (UK)
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I am looking for the Young Family from Monaghan. I know, pretty vague, but here's what I do know:
William Bedell Young born or christened : 11 March 1809 Monaghan, Ireland
died: 15 November 1818 Chicago, Illinois
Mary Nicholson Young born or christened: 12 JUL 1810 in Armagh, Ireland (or Monaghan not confirmed)
died: 2 SEP 1866 in Peoria, Illinois
They married 21 March 1828 in Monaghan, Monaghan, Ireland
* This is all information from our family records my gggrandfather had. Most of it confirmed except marriage.
They had 6 kids, 4 born in Ireland, 2 in Illinois:
Andrew : b. 1829 Monaghan
John b. 1831 Monaghan
Elizabeth b. 1833 Monaghan
Mary b. 1837 Monaghan - my 3rd grandmother
William John b. 1842 Bureau County Illinois
Henry George b. 1848 Bureau County Illinois
From our family records and census info they came to the US in Jan 1842. I have searched for every ship I could find online in 1841/1842 to see if I could find them. Nothing. Looked to see if they came in groups. Nothing. Not sure what port them came through but their destination was Bureau County Illinois.
It was also stated at some point in their travels their ship wrecked or had some sort of accident, but that all aboard survived. Searched wrecks...nothing.
I do not know religious information for them. I do know from census records that they were farmers for quite sometime after they came over (and very wealthy ones at that), then William Bedell Young was listed as a "gentleman" then a real estate agent. Several of his sons became real estate/land agents in Chicago, IL.
I was going to order their death certificates, but their area of birth would only say Monaghan Ireland. At this point I'm at a loss. For experienced Irish researchers, are there any other ways of finding information about their life before they came to the states? I have looked at almost every resource listed in this forum without success, so I wanted to try the Monaghan board for my one last shot at the Young Family.
I'd appreciate any advice or ideas you could send my way :)
Thank you,
Cindy
Bradenton, FL, USA
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Not all passenger lists survive, certainly not for that period, and I suspect that of those that are still around not all will be easily found online. Given the location of Bureau County, Illinois (just west of Chicago) they could have arrived in the U.S. via Canada.
The most likely sources for finding their Irish roots are likely to be in U.S. records.
Have you checked for newspaper obituaries? since they were fairly prominent there's a better chance of getting a newspaper report which might mention a location in Ireland (don't forget to check for the whole family not just the parents and children born in Ireland).
Local histories often given detailed information so well worth checking if you haven't done so already.
Details on death certificates can vary greatly depending on what the informant knows and probably how the registrar asked for the information.
Have a look at Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) and My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498742.0.html).
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The Youngs lived at Drumagelvin, Monaghan and the Nicholsons at New Mills, Monaghan.
The church MIGHT list their parent's names in Marriage Register but a donation to church funds would apply!
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Not all passenger lists survive, certainly not for that period, and I suspect that of those that are still around not all will be easily found online. Given the location of Bureau County, Illinois (just west of Chicago) they could have arrived in the U.S. via Canada.
The most likely sources for finding their Irish roots are likely to be in U.S. records.
Have you checked for newspaper obituaries? since they were fairly prominent there's a better chance of getting a newspaper report which might mention a location in Ireland (don't forget to check for the whole family not just the parents and children born in Ireland).
Local histories often given detailed information so well worth checking if you haven't done so already.
Details on death certificates can vary greatly depending on what the informant knows and probably how the registrar asked for the information.
Have a look at Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) and My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498742.0.html).
Thanks for the ideas. I figured that due to their dates of birth and marriage it could be a long shot :)
I hadn't looked too much in Canada, so I'll start digging around there. As for US info found everything said Monaghan, Ireland. Death records, obituaries, etc. Elder Mary's death records in the county they lived in at the time of her death were not required, so hunting down a church in the area may be interesting. And although William B. died in Chicago, he was also buried in Peoria next to Mary. William B. death certificate had very little as well.
I found an Illinois site where I may try and see if William B had any sort of will. Since he and some of his kids were real estate agents in Chicago as well as owning quite a bit of land there must be documentation somewhere. Who knows :-\
I appreciate you taking the time to help me out. Thank you!
Cindy
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The Youngs lived at Drumagelvin, Monaghan and the Nicholsons at New Mills, Monaghan.
The church MIGHT list their parent's names in Marriage Register but a donation to church funds would apply!
Wowzers!! I noticed you are in Ireland. Are these families in your tree? I'd love to hear more if so. Did my Young and Nicholson names and dates match up with the ones you listed?
Thank you so much for the information. I'm going to go Google/Google Earth some information about the area.
Cindy
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I have Youngs on my tree but different family.
You have correct marriage date but as to any other details that MIGHT be in the church records I wouldn't know....possibly fathers' names.
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An Andrew Young, son of William and Mary, was baptised in parish of Tehallan in 1829 in the northeast of the county beside the Armagh border.
The family lived at New Mills. It was a Church of Ireland baptism (anglican).
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An Andrew Young, son of William and Mary, was baptised in parish of Tehallan in 1829 in the northeast of the county beside the Armagh border.
The family lived at New Mills. It was a Church of Ireland baptism (anglican).
That matches up for my Andrew. When my g-g-grandfather started our family heritage books he had Armagh written and crossed out. He also had a Connly or a Connoly written then crossed out. I'm trying to Google the areas that hallmark noted, but I've been digging my lines in England for some time and am not familiar with Ireland or how the town/parishes, etc. were set up in 1800's.
Are their online sites that are Irish based that can help me learn more about the towns, history, churches of Ireland in this time frame? On my father's side we have the Youngs & Nicholsons, Sterritt's and Lyon's from Ireland and so my journey into Ireland started with the first two as I had the most information on them :)
Thank you for the information, I appreciate it!
Cindy
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I'm not sure what resources are online, perhaps others reading this can point you in the right direction...
There is a book in the OS Memoirs series called "Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland Vol 40: South Ulster 1834-8" covering Sligo, Leitrim Cavan, Monaghan, and Louth, and the blurb says that Monaghan has the best coverage in the book. If it's anything like the other OS series books, it'll have good background to the county.
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Cindy, if you are in Canada you would be better off using Google Search Engine in Ireland for your search....
www.google.ie will get you better results!
http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=37099329 will get you views of N E Monaghan.
The marriage would not have been Church of Ireland at that time but Church of England, I think the full title was "Established Church of England and Ireland" so based on C of E as to parish set up etc...
Gaffy posted "Andrew Young, son of William and Mary, was baptised in parish of Tehallan in 1829"
but I would have posted "Andrew Young, son of William and Mary, was baptised in parish of Tyholland in 1829" but we are both correct as it was known by both names... Irish research isn't easy!
Now...what Lyons are you looking for??
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I'm not sure what resources are online, perhaps others reading this can point you in the right direction...
There is a book in the OS Memoirs series called "Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland Vol 40: South Ulster 1834-8" covering Sligo, Leitrim Cavan, Monaghan, and Louth, and the blurb says that Monaghan has the best coverage in the book. If it's anything like the other OS series books, it'll have good background to the county.
I'll keep my eye out for this one. Thanks for sharing the information. Cindy
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Lyons is my paternal grandmother's line. Both sides Irish. Both came to US and stayed either in New York City or Brooklyn, New York. This is all my grandmother had:
Owen Lyons - b.1780 Ireland d. 1830 New York City
From NYC directories I found him in 1808 living in NYC. He was a Shoemaker.
Found his death in NYC records: October 11, 1830
Do not know anything about his marriage besides he was married to Cornelia Holsted b.1794 in Ireland. They had 4 children, all born in NYC.
His oldest son is Owen Lyons as well. He is my gggrandfather.
b. 1824- d. 1889 Born/Lived/Died in NYC He was a Tailor.
He married - Elizabeth Sterritt b1826 d.1867 Her parents were William b.1802 Ireland & Ann b.1800 Ireland
have no information about them besides they were born in Ireland and he was a Carpetweaver. Only found them in 1 census, before and after....totally gone.
Not much to go on with them, but thankfully they stayed in one place so I hope to go to NYC one day to dig around in their archives :)
Cindy
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Question: If you are researching, would I type in Tyholland or Tehallan? Are many parishes like this?.... Yes, quite a few! Google both!
The naming system takes getting used to BUT I also have same problem with US stuff.. I've one family who never moved but ended up in 3 places due to lines being redrawn, North Carolina became South Carolina for where they lived...etc
Attaching photograph (taken by me) of the church which you will probably like to have. I have g/stones photographed but nothing for your names!
Not breaching Copyright laws as it is my copyright.
Bedell would probably indicate a previous marriage between these families. Very doubtful if you will get anything on Owen!
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Question: If you are researching, would I type in Tyholland or Tehallan? Are many parishes like this?.... Yes, quite a few! Google both!
The naming system takes getting used to BUT I also have same problem with US stuff.. I've one family who never moved but ended up in 3 places due to lines being redrawn, North Carolina became South Carolina for where they lived...etc
Attaching photograph (taken by me) of the church which you will probably like to have. I have g/stones photographed but nothing for your names!
Not breaching Copyright laws as it is my copyright.
Bedell would probably indicate a previous marriage between these families. Very doubtful if you will get anything on Owen!
My spare time the past few days has been trying to understand the geography of the area and understanding towns/parishes, etc. From the locations you gave me, am I correct that Drumagelvin is what you'd call a town- land? Please correct me as I'm still a bit confused:
Drumagelvin(Townland)--Tyholland/Tehallan(Parish)--Monaghan(County?Union?)--Ulster would be the Province?
The google.ie has been helpful and bookmarked so I may help aid my searches. The Bedell middle name was always a mystery to our family. As I've been researching I have seen Bishop William Bedell mentioned and his sons. It's still a new angle, but have you heard of any of his descendants in Co. Monaghan?
I am still trying to find the Nicholsons in NewMills. I am assuming this is a small town/area as I have seen a few on the maps but far away from Monaghan. Is there another name NewMills goes by?
Cindy
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See www.thecore.com/seanruad to find details of places in Ireland. If you search for a townland it will give you the civil parish, barony, Poor Law Union (almost always same as registration district), county and Province.
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I think the 'New Mills' in question may be a population centre, or village, located in the townland of Kilcran, about 30km (c18 miles) to the north west of Drumagelvin townland, or about 18 km (11 miles) north of Monagahn town.
In around 1837 New Mills had a Flax and Corn Mill, and a bridge over the River Blackwater.
see: New Mills (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,671822,838816,6,7) (OSI Map)
Kilcran was in in the civil and church of Ireland parish of Donagh.
Shane
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I found Drumagelvin on Google Earth and have been taking a 'drive' around. May be the closest I ever get to Ireland LOL. Absolutely beautiful. When you zoom out a bit and look at the area Google says is Drumagelvin it is a decent sized area with very little in the way of housing. I did see lots of areas that looked like it had been growing stuff but it was awesome to see such lovely land barely touched my modern building and expanding!
So if the Young's were in this town land, what was the average population of a townland such as this? I would love to know what they actually did as a family in this community. In the 1850 census (8yrs after they arrived) in Illinois they were farmers. Very wealthy farmers at that. So I wonder what their level of success was before they came to the US. In Illinois My William's first born son was an Andrew so I started looking for anything before 1800 with an Andrew Young. Is it listed in church records that Drumagelvin was their town land?
As for New Mills, I found the area shanew147 saw as well. I did find a few names with New Mills, Co. Monaghan though but couldn't get solid confirmation. If Tyholland Parish Church (St. Sillians?) was Mary Nicholson's church, is Tyholland another name for New Mills?? My goodness this is confusing. Was New Mills written down somewhere related to the Nicholson's family? From what I've read online here they marry in the brides church.
How common were these last name? Off to Google Earth to travel some more!
Cindy
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If Tyholland Parish Church (St. Sillians?) was Mary Nicholson's church, is Tyholland another name for New Mills?? My goodness this is confusing.
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Tyholland/Tehallan civil parish is the immediately south of Donagh civil parish, where New Mills is located.
S.
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I wouldn't compare what is on Google now with what was there 150 years ago! You can go up roads near here via Google and not 1 house... yet 150 years ago there were maybe 15 families living in houses along them.
Tyholland Church might cover 20 or 30 townlands...
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Oh, I'm not LOL I was just enjoying the ride with Google :) No doubt there are many areas with rubble from old houses, etc.
I found this on Google Books : A Topographical Dictionary of Ireland By Samuel Lewis.
It was one of the only places I could see reference to NewMills:
The corn and flax-mills belonging to Mr. Young, called the New-Mills, about 1 ˝ mile from Glasslough, employ about 20 persons. ( Young, W. B., Esq., New-mills, Glasslough, co. Monaghan) I wonder if this WB Young is in my family or my WB Young.
It also had a good bit on the areas you mentioned, so hopefully it will help me get a better grasp on the area.
Was it common place to name a town land after a mill or a company/business in the area?
Cindy
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LOL.....well we drive on the left here so if you are going up and down the roads using Google please keep to the left!!!
Yes that is the Mill belonging to the Youngs! Places often get 'renamed'..often just by common usage over time!!
E.G. One has Swann's Cross...but what was it called before the Swanns lived there??
Same with where I lived before..if I used the official address no one knew where I lived but if I said Nolan's Cross they knew exactly where I was....but there is no such place officially
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Well, I was able to find baptism dates for a few of my Young children:
This was the only information I found online. Just parents name and baptism dates and location:
Andrew - 12 Feb 1829 in New Mills, Tehallan, Monaghan, Ireland
John - 13 Mar 1831 in Drumagelvin, Tehallan, Monaghan, Ireland
Elizabeth Jane - 3 May 1833 in New Mills, Donagh, Tehallan, Monaghan, Ireland
Mary ( my - birth was 6 July 1837 in ???? Monaghan, Ireland
* Mary (and forms of Mary) baptism was not listed which was confusing. I assumed it would be in the same area, but no luck.
If they have children born in New Mills AND Drumagelvin, were they baptised in the same Church of Ireland Church?
Also, earlier in my post it was said the Young's were from Drumagelvin. And from what I've read the Young's possibly owned a mill in New Mills, where it was said here that the Nicholson's lived, is it safe to say that the Nicholson's in some aspect worked for the Young's? Was it common for a mill owner to live in one area and have his his mill in a neighboring area? I wish I could find the name of the mill and how long it was running! Wouldn't that be fun.
Also, when a family left Ireland for the US (or other country) Was it common to record when and why they left? If so, was that a record you'd find in the church or somewhere else?
Cindy
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Born 6 July 1837 and Baptised 10th Jan 1838 at same church.
"If they have children born in New Mills AND Drumagelvin, were they baptised in the same Church of Ireland Church?
"...Yes.
"when a family left Ireland for the US (or other country) Was it common to record when and why they left? If so, was that a record you'd find in the church or somewhere else?"...... In 99.999% of cases Nothing recorded!
A watermill had to be where a suitable water course could be built.
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Thank you for clarifying her dates for me. I'm starting to get a better grip on names of townlands, parishes, etc.
I have been digging a bit more and was able to find William B. Young in the Tithe Applotment Books. In 1832 he would have been 23, I assume it's still him at this point as I am not sure who his father was nor if he had siblings. If his first born is named Andrew would that possibly be his father's name?
Anyway, the record is on Ancestry.com but FamilySearch actually has the written information which I was able to save. FamilySearch led me to page 28/31 and I found out that all 31 pages are with William B. Young AND a Thomas Roblnson. Both were listed as commissioners and each had 1000 pounds sterling in their personal estate. Robinson's estate was listed in Tallymount. Not sure who this guy is, so that's another project!
The first few pages had official wording with William B. and Thomas Robinson. Then I hit page 4/5 and it starts listing the names,area, tithe, etc. Under Drumagelvin I found him listed first with 228 acres, but found no information about the Nicholson's. It also had William's estate listed in New Mills, but then I found him again in Drumagelvin.
It also states that owed was 350 pounds sterling, and that in 7 years ending in 1832, that corn was the principle crop they produced ( at a rate of 13..3% per barrel ) Not sure if these numbers indicate success, but still great to find out a bit more.
Do you know if there were other Young's in Tyholland in that time period...ones that were not related?
Cindy
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Oh, I'm not LOL I was just enjoying the ride with Google :) No doubt there are many areas with rubble from old houses, etc.
I found this on Google Books : A Topographical Dictionary of Ireland By Samuel Lewis.
It was one of the only places I could see reference to NewMills:
The corn and flax-mills belonging to Mr. Young, called the New-Mills, about 1 ˝ mile from Glasslough, employ about 20 persons. ( Young, W. B., Esq., New-mills, Glasslough, co. Monaghan) I wonder if this WB Young is in my family or my WB Young.
It also had a good bit on the areas you mentioned, so hopefully it will help me get a better grasp on the area.
Was it common place to name a town land after a mill or a company/business in the area?
Cindy
Hello, I see in one of your posts you mention Thomas Robinson with William B. Young. You found the tithe entries for Tyholland. I have much on Thomas Robinson and it is Sallymount, not Tallymount. Sallymount Farm is in the very small Townland of Golree/Gulree, County Monaghan. We visited there in 2006. I think Thomas Robinson owned the entire Townland of Golree. I think the connection with the two men is that they were commissioners for the tithe collections, 1832. ANNE
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Hi Cindy,
William Bedell Young of Monaghan was the brother of my ancestor, Andrew Knight Young. They were the sons of Andrew (d. 1818) and Elizabeth (d. 1828). Here is the family tree:
http://www.familytreedna.com/my/family-tree/share?k=hzQYxuNqdCe%2FejOaIGVc2g%3D%3D
You can also read about the Youngs of Armagh and Monaghan in the old book, "Reminiscences of an Irish Priest" by Canon Augustus Blaney Russell Young.
Kind regards,
Rory James Andrew Young
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Did they intermarry with the family of William Bedell, D.D., Lord Bishop of Kilmore ??
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[Did they intermarry with the family of William Bedell, D.D., Lord Bishop of Kilmore ??]
Was William Bedell Bishop of Kilmore 4x great grandfather of Andrew Knight Young & William Bedell
Young?