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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Completed Lookups => Topic started by: sirsimon on Tuesday 27 November 12 17:44 GMT (UK)
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Hello
One of my ancestors is William Watkins, him and his family were born in Neath. He was born in 1835 and died in 1893. He married a woman named Ann Davies, his son was William Watkins, born in 1858 and he died in 1935.
William's father was apparently born in Merthyr Tydfil in 1802 and died in 1883, his wife was named Ann
Is was wondering if someone could assist me in locating William Watkins's (1802 - 1883) father
my thanks
Simon
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this looks like them in 1851 - HO107/ 2463/ 189/ 26
William Watkins 51
Ann Watkins 61
Lucy Watkins 23
William Watkins 16
This has WIlliam snr born Neath & William jnr b Merthyr, but William jnr is consistently b Neath in later censuses
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not finding William's baptism as yet, but this looks like sister Lucy's
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFH5-GPM
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William senior?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFH5-WJM
and marriage to Ann
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFZR-N2P
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possible for Ann's baptism
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFZ9-51D
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The marriage between William and Ann looks about right for William, born 1835. However, Lucy and Catherine were born before that, so either this isn't the marriage or Anne Abraham is a different person to the mother of Lucy as mentioned in the birth
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it could be the marriage as William & Ann were not married at the time of Lucy's baptism. Ann's maiden name is shown on the baptism, she is noted as spinster and Lucy as base daughter.
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Ah right, that makes sense.
Apparently William's father was named John, according to the baptism 1800.
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What is Ann's maiden name on the baptism?
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maiden name is Abraham.
There's a will at the NLW for a John Watkins, victualler of Llantwit juxta Neath who died 1-5-1835. There's a legacy for son William, but the bulk if the estate went to wife and daughter both called Gwenllian. 1841 census has the 2 Gwenllians living at the Barley Mow in Llantwit juxta Neath ref HO107/1421/15 folio 28 pg 6
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
:-\
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burial for Gwenllian senior aged 90!
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFHZ-YPG
outlived her daughter
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VF87-2HR
Her age at burial would match this baptism
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFC3-524
I couldn't find a likely marriage for John & Gwenllian, having assumed the Gwens were mother & daughter, but they weren't. Looks like John remarried.
1861 Barley Mow, Tonna RG9/ 4087 folio 35 pg 8
Gwenllian Watkins head widow 79 innkeeper b. Kilybepill
Gwenllian Watkins step dau 50 b. Cadoxton
Rees Morris son unm 43 railway labourer b. Glindulais
Mary Davies grand dau 22 house servant b. Michaelston
Elizabeth Griffiths 24 house servant b. Llanguicke
the place name spelling is that of the enumerator.
;)
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remarriage was in Llandeilo Fawr in Carmarthenshire and by licence
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=3099971
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That looks like William's father.
Apparently bare daughter is a term given in genealogy to a children born out of wedlock, both parents not married
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think that should be base and I included it to show parents weren't married.
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I have to admit, I must remark on your researching skills. This is quite confusing, so William Watkins, born 1800, his parents were Gwenllian Morris and John Watkin, but his sister was not named Gwenllian and was from another marriage? ???
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So we know that Gwenllian had a son named Rees Morris and his father was Morris. The census indicated Gwenllian was a widow, meaning her first husband is dead. Gwenllian the younger is a step daughter, meaning she is not the daughter of Gwenllian.
This is confusing, how does William fit into this then?
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So, we have John Watkins b ?
married 1 unknown
issue
William b c 1802
Gwenllian b c1811 (or c1803, by death)
married 2 (1827) - Gwenllian Morris, widow of Llandeilo Mawr b c1783
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Still a bit confusing. However I have found possible siblings for William, born 1800, all born in Cadoxton-J-Neath.
Ann 1804
Margaret 1813
Gwenllian 1804
William 1796
Margaret 1802
There is a Charlotte Watkin, buried in Neath in 1805 with a father named John
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I have found a John Watkin, born in Neath 1761 to parents Hopkin Watkin and Mary,may not be him though
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the will mentions only William & Gwenllian, so possibly the other children were born to another John Watkins or had died by 1835. John's burial shows his age at 62, so too young for the 1761 baptism.
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=7671931
more than one possible marriage for a John Watkin around the time you're looking for.
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Wow, this is so confusing and irritating. We are only at the end of 18th century, names and dates shouldn't be so hard to figure out.
So we have a John Watkin, 1773 - 1835
and a Gwenllian 1783 - 1873
now we just need to see if there is a link to William Watkins, born 1800/1802 in Neath. Does his baptism give any hints towards parentage other than just a name of the father. Its 1800 so I doubt much will be given
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father's name only & no occupation given, so no way of knowing which family it is.
There's a John Watkin + Catherine Williams marriage in 1796 and a John Watkin + Mary Thomas in 1798. Those 2 Johns both made their mark when they married, the John of the 1835 will signed his will, so I'd have my doubts about both those marriages.
There's also a John & Margaret and a John & Elizabeth having children baptised around Neath at that time. Baptisms from 1813 should show the occupation for the father. John & Margaret have a daughter Catherine in 1813 and he is noted as collier.
:-\
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I appreciate the help provided so far, but it looks like we are not going to get very far. I am amazed by how notoriously difficult the search is for the parents of William Watkins. This is the late 1700s, should not be so difficult to find out information
All we know is that William's father was named John, but there are many Johns
Can we also be certain the William mentioned in the will of 1835 is actually the William born in 1800 Neath, the one whom had a child named William in 1835? :-\
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in a word, no, you can't be sure. One way to go about it would be to build up a picture of all the Watkin(s) families in the area with the children belonging to each one and check for burials & marriages for all. One thing you can't do when you get back to parish records is to leap back another generation without a lot of searching to make sure there aren't other possible candidates for the person you're looking for when you're dealing with a common name.
Where did you get the info that William senior was born in Merthyr Tydfil in 1802?
Not all parish records are available online, so you may need to get access to the records at an LDS centre if you can't get to archives.
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Sorry I meant 1800, not 1802
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Haven't had much luck since our last search, anyone had better success?
William was definitely born in 1800 in Neath according to the 1851 census and I was unable to access the will for John Watkin 1835
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Haven't had much luck since our last search, anyone had better success?
William was definitely born in 1800 in Neath according to the 1851 census and I was unable to access the will for John Watkin 1835
This was a great find by Osprey. The link to the will was in reply 9 - the reference http://hdl.handle.net/10107/195885. You needed to scroll through the pages until you found John Watkins 1835 Llantwit-juxta-Neath, Glamorgan, Victualler. Item 117
It was on page 12 of that link. Have you looked properly at the link ? Click on image 1 and you can read it ??? Not sure what the problem is. ???
Just to reiterate what Osprey said - Not all parish records are available online, so you may need to get access to the records at an LDS centre if you can't get to archives.
Sandra
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thanks
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You're very welcome. ;D
Sandra
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Right
I have come back from the Swansea archives and I have made some progress
Whilst I didn't find William's baptism or his father, I learnt that he died in 1883 in Merthyr Tydfil and he was not born or baptised in Cadoxton Juxta Neath. The William born in Cadoxton is a different William in the 1851 census
He was born in Neath, but not Cadoxton.
Does the marriage between him and Ann Abraham give any mention of a father for William?
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Great News
I have found William's baptism. His parents were William Watkin and Catherine Reynold