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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Completed Lookups => Topic started by: aidansrest on Friday 14 December 12 09:23 GMT (UK)

Title: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: aidansrest on Friday 14 December 12 09:23 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I hope someone can help me track down this persons maiden name!!

She was born in 1893 (possibly Port Talbot), as Mary Elizabeth.... and died in Newcastle on the 26th November 1962.

She married a Edward Timothy Williams sometime prior to 1912-1916
Edward had been born in 1869 (possibly Port Talbot), and died in Mid Glam hospital in 1949 aged 80 years.

The pair had two children:
Trevor Williams born c1912
Reginald Williams born c1916

Mary Elizabeth married three times:
1. Edward Timothy Williams
2. John Armstrong
3. Edward Smith

And had children to them all - we can't find her 1st marriage though and are stumped by her maiden name!!

Any help would be most appreciated !!

Thanks

Sue Roberts
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 14 December 12 09:42 GMT (UK)
Where were Trevor & Reginald born?

FreeBMD will show Mother's maiden name from 1912 onwards!
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: aidansrest on Friday 14 December 12 10:13 GMT (UK)
Both were born in Port Talbot apparantly - but there seems to be a few Trevor and Reginald William's births around the time of theirs!

Sue
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 14 December 12 10:54 GMT (UK)
Port Talbot came under the Neath registration district.

Just 2 Trevor Williams about the right time:
Trevor S Williams, March qtr 1911
Trevor Williams, December qtr 1913 - mother's maiden name Thomas.

There are 6 Reginald Williams registered 1915-1917:
June qtr 1915, Reginald - mother's maiden name Stewart
March qtr 1816, Reginald A - mmn Stephenson
September qtr 1916, Reginald W E - mmn Bufrey
June qtr 1917, Reginald L - mmn Williams
September qtr 1917, Reginald T - mmn Roberts
December qtr 1917, Reginald N - mmn Jones
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MargP on Friday 14 December 12 11:34 GMT (UK)
Hi

What strikes me about this is the age difference between Edward and Mary, could Edward already be married, if this is the case the children may have been registered in her maiden name, I think you may have to get one of her other children's birth certificates  to find her maiden name

Margp
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MargP on Friday 14 December 12 11:44 GMT (UK)
Hi

Do you have the Armstrong children's name and dates of birth, we should be able to pick up the maiden name from them
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 12:04 GMT (UK)
Was there a divorce from ETW?  Otherwise if he died in 1949 I am a little confused as to how Mary Elizabeth was still fertile in two later marriages.  If you have a little more detail on dates & places it would help a lot.

Obviously any of her marriage certificates should give her father's name including his surname which would usually also be her maiden name.
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 12:19 GMT (UK)
Is this the Armstrong marriage?

Marriage, Jun qtr 1917

John ARMSTRONG
Mary E WILLIAMS

Neath 11a 1480
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 14 December 12 12:25 GMT (UK)
Just to add to the confusion here there is no Edward Timothy Williams birth reg'd ca.1869 - nothing is making much sense at the moment.

Annette
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 12:27 GMT (UK)
Likewise, I can't easily see any obvious trace of a suitable Edward Timothy Williams prior to the Edward T Williams death in 1949.

Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MargP on Friday 14 December 12 12:39 GMT (UK)
Same here, there are 2 Armstrong and Williams children born in the 20's I will not post in case they are still alive

Margp
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 14 December 12 12:45 GMT (UK)
What are your sources for this?   Give us some definites to go by - as already asked, if there were Armstrong children where/when were they born?

Annette
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MaureeninNY on Friday 14 December 12 12:46 GMT (UK)
Is it possible that she's the daughter of Edward rather than his wife??

There's a family on the 1901 Wales  5060/ 109/15 that looks interesting.

Just a thought!

Maureen
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MargP on Friday 14 December 12 12:51 GMT (UK)
My thought's as well Maureen
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MargP on Friday 14 December 12 13:39 GMT (UK)
Hi

I think that the information about the father being Edward, may have come from one  of the marriage's for Trevor or Reginald, how ever if they were born out of wedlock, this very often happened, where they put the grandfather's name as there father, to save face.

We are all here to help Sue, so if you could come back with more information,  will may get to the bottom of this

Margp
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 13:41 GMT (UK)
I wonder whether this is the Smith marriage?

Marriage, Jun qtr 1936

Mary E ARMSTRONG
Edward SMITH

Newcastle 10b 276
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 13:50 GMT (UK)
Is it possible that she's the daughter of Edward rather than his wife??

There's a family on the 1901 Wales  5060/ 109/15 that looks interesting.



I wonder whether the baptism below relates to this Mary Elizabeth - perhaps her father used the names Edward and Timothy interchangeably?

http://tinyurl.com/cj5s8to
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: aidansrest on Friday 14 December 12 13:51 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I am actually trying to research a family tree for a gentleman who is related to Mary Elizabeth - she is his great grandmother.

All he knows is that his grandmother, Mary Doreen Armstrong, born in Newcastle on the 20/5/1920, is Mary Elizabeth's daughter, by her second husband, John Armstrong.
Mary Doreen Armstrong died in 1985, so the information he has is via his mother, Mary Doreen's daughter, Lorraine.

The information he gave me was Mary Elizabeth's first husband was indeed an Edward Timothy Williams, although the age difference between her and her first spouse in rather pronounced!!

I too found the marriage of a John Armstrong and a Mary Elizabeth Williams in Neath and thought it may be her.
Her Armstrong children were
Molly born in Newcastle (no DOB)
Mary Doreen born in Newcastle in 1920.

Just seen post by Maureen - am at work and can't access 'ancestry' - could you tell me what census reads?

Thanks

Sue
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 13:53 GMT (UK)
FreeBMD shows Mary D Armstrong born Newcastle Sep qtr 1920 mmn Willis.
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: aidansrest on Friday 14 December 12 13:54 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Just seen baptism - at last this looks like her.
I wonder if Trevor and Reginald were born outside marriage, and John Armstrong, who she married in Neath in 1917 was her first husband, not her second!!

Thanks so much,

Sue
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: aidansrest on Friday 14 December 12 13:57 GMT (UK)
Mary D Armstrong on Freebmd registered Sept quarter of 1920, mother's maiden name mistranscribed as 'Willis'

Sue
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 14:05 GMT (UK)
Other baptisms from familysearch:

1892 (at Maesteg Chapelry, Llangynwyd): Edith Eleanor Williams, dau of Timothy (collier) and Elizabeth, of Cymmer
1897 (at Maesteg Chapelry, Llangynwyd): William Henry Williams aged 1, son of Timothy (collier) and Elizabeth, of Margam St, Cymmer
1898 (at Llangynwyd): Edward John Williams son of Timothy (collier) and Elizabeth, of Cymmer
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 14:09 GMT (UK)
Marriage?

http://tinyurl.com/cqlsmtj
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MaureeninNY on Friday 14 December 12 14:30 GMT (UK)
Well,that certainly looks like the same family then! As avm228 pointed out-the father must have used Timothy and Edward interchangeably. I wonder why John Williams is listed as "Father-in-law"?

Here's the 1901 I mentioned:
16 Margam Street Glyncorrwg Cymmer
WILLIAMS, Edward Coal Miner born Llanelly 1870
WILLIAMS, Elizabeth born Glyncorrwg 1872   
With children (all born Cymmer)
 Edith Eleanor   1893   
 Mary Eliz 1894   
 Wm Henry 1897   
 Ed John 1899   
WILLIAMS, John   Father-In-Law Coalminer born 1835 Gower

Maureen
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 14:36 GMT (UK)
I wonder why John Williams is listed as "Father-in-law"?


Perhaps this is an instance of the old-fashioned usage meaning "stepfather"?
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MaureeninNY on Friday 14 December 12 14:48 GMT (UK)
I wonder why John Williams is listed as "Father-in-law"?


Perhaps this is an instance of the old-fashioned usage meaning "stepfather"?

Quite possibly! Wales is like a minefield for me! :)

Maureen
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: avm228 on Friday 14 December 12 16:08 GMT (UK)
1891 census (Wales): RG12/4464/73/8

6 Maesteg Road, Cymmer


Edward WILLIAM (sic) Head Mar 21 Miner Coal miner Carmarthen Derry (?) Speaks English
Elizabeth do Wife Mar 20 Glamorgan Glyncorrwg Speaks both English & Welsh
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: MargP on Friday 14 December 12 17:01 GMT (UK)
Port Talbot came under the Neath registration district.

Just 2 Trevor Williams about the right time:
Trevor S Williams, March qtr 1911
Trevor Williams, December qtr 1913 - mother's maiden name Thomas.

There are 6 Reginald Williams registered 1915-1917:
June qtr 1915, Reginald - mother's maiden name Stewart
March qtr 1816, Reginald A - mmn Stephenson
September qtr 1916, Reginald W E - mmn Bufrey
June qtr 1917, Reginald L - mmn Williams
September qtr 1917, Reginald T - mmn Roberts
December qtr 1917, Reginald N - mmn Jones
The Reginald L b 1917 mmm Williams may be the Reginald you are looking for

Reginald L Williams
Mother's Maiden  Williams
Date  Apr Qtr 1917
Reg dist Neath
County Wales
Vol 11a
Page 1717
Title: Re: Maiden Name Mystery
Post by: aidansrest on Friday 14 December 12 19:07 GMT (UK)
Thanks to each and everyone of you who has helped and contributed to this thread. Your information has been invaluable and it is very, very much appreciated!

Sue