RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Magne on Thursday 14 February 13 22:33 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I am looking for a picture of this grave:
BRECK, THOR MATTISON
Died 27-11-1930: aged 70
Place Hillsborough
Location Area 3 Block R Lot No 97
Would it be possible for someone living in the area to post a picture of the grave?
I have also noticed a record at Archives New Zealand and several sources on ancestry.com concerning this person.
If anyone has more info or tips about Thor Mattison Breck of Sweden, I would be grateful.
Thank you
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His naturalisation record names him as Thor Matison BRECK, 47(?) years old, Born Skesoken, Sweden. He was a miner, and lived in Brighton, Westport.
He was granted naturalisation on 30 September 1893.
Record 1893/2212, 30, 5
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Born Skesoken, Sweden
If anyone has more info....
Hello...
I don't speak Swedish but have previously searched Swedish records.
The "Skesoken, Sweden" mentioned by Twiggy may be "Skee Socken" which in english is Skee Parish. This is a parish in the Gothenburg area.
If this is the case, and if you want to trace your man, then realistically the only option you have is purchasing a subscription to one of the main Swedish genealogy websites. These websites hold about forty million photographs covering each page of the parish registries for the last several hundred years. They are grouped by parish but not indexed by name.
Having used them I would recommend Arkivdigital. These are the records they hold for Skee Parish
Arkivdigital - via Google Translate so hopefully the link works
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sx9/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sx9/)
A weekly subscription is 75 Swedish kronor (about NZ$15). A monthly subscription is 195 Swedish kronor (about NZ$40)
Swedish records are very comprehensive. If you do find a mention of your man in the Skee Parish birth registry then there's a good chance you'll also be able to find his extended family. Takes a bit of searching but it's all good fun.
Regards
Beg
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Thank you both for your replies!
I did not mention all the info I have regarding Thor. I live in Norway and have seen the Swedish info on Thor. I have also seen the info regarding his naturalisation.
I have little knowledge about NZ archives, but I have collected some info and requested the records on his naturalisation, death certificate (print out) his probate records (correct term?) and burial records.
Please send me all and any tips that you may have on how to find more info about Thor.
Have a nice day!
Magne
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A good place to start is our Resources board. :D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,417.0.html
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A letter to the editor in 1907
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sxb/
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TwiggyTree:
Thank you for tip and this valuable letter! Pure gold :)
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Hi Magne,
Thanks for you PM
Hillsborough cemetery is notoriously difficult for finding graves,it has no office as it is not only open for ashes interments.
I have looked at the cemetery maps I have and the likeihood of finding his grave is very remote,he was buried at the beginning of New Zealand's Great Depression and very few graves had headstones due to the cost.
This Google map shot shows approx where he is buried,it is the area below the white path,there are approximately 1000 burials in that area and as you can see there are very few headstones.
The area is extremely steep and appears to be becoming overgrown from the bush encroaching from below.
Cheers Janette
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I see. Interesting.
Thank you so much, Janette, for helping to shed light on this matter. I've received so much help from so many people already!
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For those of you who understand Norwegian:
From a Norwegian forum (Digitalarkivet) about Thor:
http://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/170851-hvor-ble-det-av-svenskeinnflytteren-thor-etter-1875/
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magne,
If you want someone to look up that probate file then see here for how to start a thread for that:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,508522.0.html
Have you found any other files / information or research avenues (from our Resources board) to help you otherwise?
Twiggy
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He also applied for a patent for his device (although I don't know if any records exist for these at all)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0syk/
Perhaps IPONZ can tell you what happens to their archives?
http://www.iponz.govt.nz/
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The 1917 Gold Mine license transfer may be in our government 'Gazette':
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0syl/
Someone here may be able to look this up at the library, as some have the Gazette archives.
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Thanks for these posts, TwiggyTree.
The Gold Mine license, what is the source for that?
Maybe I've missed something, but I can't see or remember it.
Good tip on IPONZ, maybe one could even find plans/drawings.
I have seen something on requests for digitising files at the archives. What is that? And how does it work?
I have ordered the probate file directly from Archives NZ. I also ordered the info on the naturalisation.
I found the whole system easy to operate and not too expensive.
I continue to read about and also want to learn more about all the resources that are available.
On a final note, I must say I am very grateful for all the kind help I already have received from so many New Zealanders (and others?) in my search for Thor.
Now I'm just waiting to see which clues I will get when more info comes back to me.
Magne
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The Gold Mine license was one of the files at Archives.
File digitisation is currently being done of our World War I records. If a person goes into the (Wellington) Archives office and requests that a file they are interested in, is to be digitised, the process is started and it appears on their website for download after that. There is no charge for this.
For future reference, if you post a 'Look-up' request on the NZ board, a fellow researcher may be able to go into Archives in person and find the information you ask for. You would have been able to do this for the probate and naturalisation records. See that link to the thread "Look-ups
on our resources board.
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TwiggyTree: I can't seem to find the gold mine reference at Archives. How did you search for it?
Could you possibly post the exact reference since I'm unable to find it?
Thanks!
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This may be the Ref
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22913519
Cheers Janette
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Found the gold mine reference!
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22913519
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Thanks Janette!
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I have followed up on the furter suggestions concerning the 1917 Gold Mine license transfer and the patent application. Some info here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,636484.0.html
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Regarding reply #11 and the patent application from TwiggyTree, I got this info for future ref.
"Gold-saving apparatus: 24718 : 1908; 20th July, Breck, T. M. I identified. I located the following record from archives New Zealand collection:
[Patent Specifications] 1908 - 1908 (R5013653) [Archives Reference: ABPJ 7396 W3835 box148 patent number: 24718]"
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Spades is our knight in shining armour,he will see you right ;D ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
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Oooo Magne, does that mean you got some pictures of the device? That would be interesting!
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That's my guess, TwiggyTree, although I really have no basis on which to base that. I think it's exciting.
Just feel I have to add that I still have no proof that Thor is my great-great-grandfather. Just a heavy set of hopes and a few tantalizing clues and assumptions. Which may be wrong.
I believe that info like that about the gold mine and patents will shed no light on Thor's possible relation to my great-grandfather Martin b. 1874 in Sweden.
Cheers
Magne
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Hi magne,
I have added that patent application file to my list. It may be only a written description and, as you suspect, may not provide any biographical information. But an excellent find regardless! ;D
Spades
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Thanks, Spades!
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More general background:
"An advertisement from the Otautau Standard newspaper (See: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=OSWCC19070409.2.3.4) revealed that T. M Breck was from Karamea and his patent agent was Henry Hughes. Henry Hughes may be able to retrieve the specification from their archived records contact: hh[at]henryhughes.co.nz"
Sent them an email.
Moderator's comment: Email address edited to protect the recipient from spam etc. Replace [at] with @.
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Maybe we can see drawings of the device? We will see :-)
Magne
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Are you saying Magne, that if Thor is your man, that he came to New Zealand; having already had a family in Sweden?
What timeline the timeline of events for these men do you have?
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Hi Magne,
I have tracked down the place where more detailed records are kept for the Hillsborough cemetery and will endeavour ro get into the city next week and search them for you.
Unfortunately the sexton's office that held the Hillsborough records has been shut.
I viewed the burial book but all it had for Thor's plot was his name and age,the lady said someone else had been in yesterday asking for details for Thor as well.
Cheers Janette
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Hello Janette. Thank you for your reply.
I have had help as you were informed, and I here share all the info I have. I am ready to answer all questions and hope you may have some ideas. And I of course hope that it wil be possible to uncover Thor's precise position:
Quoting and Paraphrasing:
The cemetery was closed in 1974
On the cemetery sketch the nice people who helped me were able to establish where area 3 was and row R is. See attached map. Unfortunately in this area there were only a few actual grave stones and a few were unreadable.
If you go to Google maps and enter 255 Hillsborogh Road, Hillsborough, Auckland, New Zealand
the cemetery is on the other side of the road. If you scan down Goodall St you will come across
two paths leading into the cemetery the first shows a vertical line and the second a horizontal
line into the cemetery. On the horizontal line between the vertical line and the road it shows
bottom of the path a line of three trees a gap and then 4 trees. The gap from the path downwards is row/block R.
See attched photo with grids. I have more photos also. Thor thought to be approx 8-N / 8-O .
Both rows shown on the photo are part of block R. Thor thought to be third from the end of the row shown on the left side of the picture (see grid reference photo). There is no way of proving this as the area is very steep and covered in scrub and trees.
The people who helped me went to the Waikumete Cemetery in West Auckland, they have a good records office. They were able to provide a large printout of the page Thor is listed on. But still Thor's grave was not found after a second visit.
In the picture you see some trees in that background and the ground falls away quite steeply to a gully. The people who helped me believe the position of his grave is slightly before the trees, right on the edge. They searched quite a wide area of headstones and none were for him. Many graves are unmarked. Sadly the records are not as accurate as one might hope. They are a little out of sequence and muddled. Even the lady in the records office was not too sure of the exact spot for Thor's grave.
From the record office they were given a printout of a page from the old book recording the names of the deceased for that little segment - but were unable to find one name off the page to tally with any headstone there. I will get this printout in the mail in about a week.
If they had been able to find just one headstone to match what we had on paper they could maybe have used that for a baring and been more able to exactly pinpoint Thor's position. But this was not the case.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
Magne
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Hello, TwiggyTree!
Yes, if Thor Matison Breck (various spellings) is Martin Toreson's (various spellings) father, he already had a son in Sweden. But Thor never lived with Martin and the mother.
I here give a timeline. Don't know if you wanted references? Additional details are also available. Just let me know :)
1852 - Thor is born in Sweden
1874 - Martin is born in Sweden close to Norwegian border, father listed as Thor Matson (don't have the exact spelling here), baker's apprentice in Fredrikshall (modern name Halden) which is a town in Norway just across the border.
1875 - Thor Matison Breck moves to same general area in Norway. Trail goes cold.
Beginning of 1880s - Martin and mother moves to Norway.
1890 - Thor's mother dies. Thor's whereabouts are "unknown"
1893 - Thor Matison Breck naturalised citizen of New Zealand.
My grandmother who is living knows next to nothing about her grandfather Thor. That could fit in well with the life of Thor Matisson Breck
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Now I see what you have got to work with - not easy.
I can only compare with the Danish research I have done...but the two anomalies that I would have in this story is that Thor (NZ) has 3 names; and the surname is MATSON on the birth information for Martin and not BRECK.
Is that what you are thinking too?
If Thor (NZ) is your grandmother's grandfather, then Thor (NZ) would need to have been married and had a child. That child would then be your grandmother's parent. Does your grandmother know where her parent's were born/raised? [I presume that your grandmother is in Norway].
I guess the story could go that Thor (NZ) was married to a Scandanavian when he came out, then he died and she moved back 'home' hence going 'full circle' back to Norway or wherever.
For the record I can't see a birth for a child to Thor (NZ).
Fingers crossed that the probate helps you make/break the connection then!
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Hi Magne,
The staff at Waikumete have only had the Hillsborough and Waikaraka cemetery records since November,prior to that they were held at the office at Waikaraka where the ladies knew Hillsborough so well.
I noticed the grave next to Thor had multiple burials in it.
The book at Waikumete is the burial register with all the plots marked as small rectangles with the occupants name written in them,there is also a cemetery register which usually has more detail like name, age, last place of residence,place of death,funeral director,next of kin,length of time in NZ etc,this register and also a register with the name of the person who purchased the plot is held in Auckland City,I hope to get in to the city next week and search both these registers for you.
Cheers Janette
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TwiggyTree:
The names of Thor is as you say one possible issue. At least in Norway it wouldn't necessarily be significant since farm names like Breck (various spellings) were both included or excluded from entries like baptisms etc.
Martin was born in Sweden, and I don't know as much about the recording practices there.
Martin was born out of wedlock. I have no info on Thor Matison Breck or Martin's father (two real persons who may have been the same person) ever being married or having (other) children.
We have all the details about my grandmother's father Martin's life from birth in Sweden, his moving to Norway and living there.
As you say, this is not easy :)
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Hi Janette:
I have a printout from Deaths in the District of Auckland from the
Births, Deaths and Marriages Office -Department of Internal Affairs
See attachment.
If convenient for you, I will happily receive all copies and files you may find.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Cheers
Magne
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I am wondering (if the probate and naturalisation records aren't enough) if contacting an historical society near Leigh might be helpful.
It is a bit of a guess which one may hold information on that area, but here are a couple:
Matakana Museum and Equestrian Centre, 1 Omaha Flats Road, Matakana
Warkworth and District Museum, Parry Kauri Park, Warkworth
Otherwise, local libraries sometimes have a biographical/historical collection and certainly newspapers (though not many have theirs indexed so that a person can easily be found in them).
I did have a look in the Rodney District Council cemetery database and nothing showed up in the way of possible family members (ie if he got married etc).
It does look though from that death print out that there was no one really close to him to fill in the personal information of parents names; and they certainly were not aware of a wife. That he was not returned to Leigh for burial may indicate that there was no one to contact regarding this decision also.
The age though does look good.
[Just as an aside, the bay below Leigh is called Matheson's Bay.]
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It does look though from that death print out that there was no one really close to him to fill in the personal information of parents names; and they certainly were not aware of a wife. That he was not returned to Leigh for burial may indicate that there was no one to contact regarding this decision also.
Also I imagine it was unusual in the 1930's, to wait 4 days for a burial,the fact there appears to be no headstone may indicate the plot was not paid for.I see the undertaker was McIvor,from memory their records are held at the NZSG in Panmure.
Cheers Janette
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I think you may be on to something there Janette.
[FWIW I have a person whose body was not buried for 13 days after his death in 1976 due most probably to the hospital/informant not knowing of his 5 daughters.]
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Hi,
Apolgies if this is repeated, but couldn't see anything that had.
There is:
Book References
Name BRECK Thor Matison
Date 25 Nov 1930
Place Skee
Book Svenskarna I Nya Zeeland
Author Sten Aminoff
Page 147
Type Book on Swedish Emigration to NZ
Further enquiries to NZSG Family Research Centre or Main Centre Libraries
Cheers
KHP
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Interesting thoughts and tips, TwiggyTree.
I don't know what the NZ probate and naturalisation records will divulge or usually reveal. One can hope.
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Sent them an email, Janette :)
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Great find, kiwihalfpint!
I will explore this. How did you find it?
Electronic source?
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Great find, kiwihalfpint!
I will explore this. How did you find it?
Electronic source?
No. On one of my resources discs that I have :)
Cheers
KHP
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Thanks, Kiwihalfpint!
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A new week is about to begin. Hope to hear back from Archives NZ. Asked them for naturalisation and probate records. Will see!
Magne
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Hi Magne,
I have photos of both the Transfer of Mining Privilege and the patent documents. The latter includes two diagrams and if you have a carpenter in your family you'll be able to build your ancestor's invention. 8)
Can you send me a PM with your email address, please.
Spades
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I have photos of both the Transfer of Mining Privilege and the patent documents. The latter includes two diagrams and if you have a carpenter in your family you'll be able to build your ancestor's invention. 8)
That sounds so cool (being that Thor (NZ) is who Magne hopes he is)!
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Hello,
I have viewed the cemetery register and the purchase of plot register today.
I could not find his name in the purchase of plot register which may indicate the plot was not purchased.
The cemetery register has
Nov 29th 4459
Name Breck: Thor Mattison
Occupation: O A P (old age pensioner)
Residence: Auckland Infirmary
Date of death: 27th Nov.
Cause of death:Myocardiitis
Where came from: Not given
Denomination:Anglican
Native place:Denmark
Age in years:70
Burial date:29th Nov.
Where buried:area III,block R,lot 97
Name of Clergyman: Rev.Perry
Name of informant:?T J McIvor
Rec no:6295
Plot:
Oc/fee :1pound.10s
Plot:
Oc/fee:1 pound.10s
I assume the blank after plot meant the plot was not paid for.
Cheers Janette
PS,I have taken photos of the book entry a bit unclear in places,if you PM your email I will send them
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Hi, Spades!
Thank you so much!
I have sent you a PM now. It will be exciting to view these documents!
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Hei, Janette!
Sent you a PM now.
Thank you so much for this!
Interesting: The age is a little off, but I suppose this is not necessarily significant.
Also Denmark is mentioned and not Sweden. New clue, new problem or simple mistake made back in 1930? :)
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Janette and Kiwihalfpint: I heard back from NZSG concerning the book "Svenskarna i Nya Zeeland" and the undertaker McIvor:
"The book does not give any further information on this man. Details in the book are taken from his New Zealand naturalisation record (birthplace Skee, Göteborg och Bohus), and date of death from his death certificate. As he did not marry in New Zealand there is no information on his marriage or any children he may have had.
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Unfortunately the McIvor Funeral Directors records do not contain any further information other than the date and place of burial."
Thanks for these tips!
Cheers
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I suspect the cemetery register has errors in it,the death printout should be accurate
Cheers Janette
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Email with photos sent
Cheers Janette
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Images of patent application sent.
Spades
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Received, dear Spades and Janette!
Really looking forward to studying this material tonight!
Magne
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Dear Rootschatters, I don't know if or when this thread will be moved. I am still awaiting more info from NZ which may shed more light on Thor. Will update :)
Magne
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The probate for Thor Matison Breck enclosed.
As far as I can see it holds no new clues. All help and tips very welcome!
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Magne, that is incredibly bereft of information or anything.
Usually they would have court proceedings, an affadavit, stamp duty receipt, etc.
I guess you could now look to the local council to find out about the property but I doubt that will tell you much, unless he passed it to a descendant who is named on the title.
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Hi Magne,
Leigh is a tiny settlement north of Auckland
http://www.leighbythesea.co.nz/history/
You may be able to contact someone through the website
Cheers Janette
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Thank you, TwiggyTree!
I thought so too. However, I did not enclose the first page of the two I received. This because of size limits and also that I believed it was not important. I should have mentioned this however.
I have changed the format and enclosed the page below now. Do you know what this page is called?
My main question: Do you think anything is missing from the probate I reveived from NZ?
All the best!
Magne
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Good tip, Janette!
Thanks!
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Hi Magne
Looking at the probate i would say it is complete,obviously there was on one else to take out administration so the Public Tustee administered his estate,often in cases where a person dies intestate a family member applies for Letters of Administration
Cheers Janette
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Ok, good to know, Janette.
Cheers!
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Magne, that is incredibly bereft of information or anything.
Usually they would have court proceedings, an affadavit, stamp duty receipt, etc.
I guess you could now look to the local council to find out about the property but I doubt that will tell you much, unless he passed it to a descendant who is named on the title.
Hello.
Re the Probate. At a 1930's valuation of just five pounds for the LEASEHOLD of a small cottage it would appear to me that the lease may have been informal, or that the lease had limited time left to be on-selling. If the latter, and it was a formal registered leasehold, there should be record/s of the lease still in existence, which may contain more info about the title and it's history.
- Alan.
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Hello, Alan!
Thank you for your post. This helps me understand more about Thor's financial situation.
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Hello again.
I tried for a quick look at THE OFFICIAL 1930 New Zealand YEARBOOK, but on dial-up it took so long to load. I think it looks like the per annum Old Age Pension, at that time, was about Forty Five Pounds, Ten Shillings. The area of LEIGH was settled by many of similar roots to Thor, and if there were official leases in place, they could contain information about who he was doing business with, and possibly borrowing money against, a leasehold title held. Especially if he had been resident there for some time. A lot of leases had a 19 or 21 year term.
Fishing could have been an income earner for him. Though small, the Leigh port inlet was the only safe berth for fishing boats, to unload, between the industrial ports of Auckland and Whangarei. Like wise the providing of a permanent mooring, hence a dinghy to get to the boat.
- Alan.
PS. I'm an inland farming guy so not up on marine history. Though Leigh and near by beach coves had a busy early boat/ing history, by 1930 and the start of the depression, I'm uncertain of whether there would have been an official register of local moorings to/by a local authority, but you could try an email to, moorings AT auckland,govt,nz [got the drift] to see how far back the current records for OMAHA COVE (Leigh) go. They are the current administrators for the area.
- Alan.
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Thank you, TwiggyTree!
I thought so too. However, I did not enclose the first page of the two I received. This because of size limits and also that I believed it was not important. I should have mentioned this however.
I have changed the format and enclosed the page below now. Do you know what this page is called?
My main question: Do you think anything is missing from the probate I reveived from NZ?
All the best!
Magne
Not sure officially, but to me it is the fly or cover [title] page of most legal documents. The wrap around of the legal document inside, and filed for future reference by the respective courts.
- Alan.
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Yet again.
Of interest there are currently only 10 publically listed NZ phone numbers for the surname and spelling of MATTISON, and all but a couple are within two hours drive of Auckland City.
http://whitepages.co.nz/white-all/mattison/new-zealand/
There were none for BRECK and some 120 for BROCK.
Also of interest, as previously mentioned, there is a bay and small cove called MATHESON Bay and a road called MATHESON BAY road, at the southern end of the settlement called Leigh. Is this an English spelling variant of a surname within the family tree? It is quite possible that when Thor left the gold fields he headed north to be with Scandinavian kinfolk, whether directly related or not.
- Alan.
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OOP's I think this country boy is all at sea on this one. Just looked at the Boats for Sale in the Auckland papers for 1930. Even though it was the start of the depression, reliable second hand dinghy's were still being advertised for sale at a pound per foot of length. A boat & dinghy, for five pounds, if sea worthy, was a give away, and would be too small to require a mooring.
- Alan.
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Interesting posts, Alan.
It seems that Thor did not have any offspring in NZ, but of course one must always keep the possibility open.
Now I'm waiting for his Naturalisation papers. Curious to see what info they will contain. Perhaps more info on his route to NZ can be found.
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Seems these records take more time than expected to transmit. I have even emailed Archives NZ several days ago without getting any reply.
If anyone knows any possible reason, please let me know :)
( Perhaps I will hear from them already tomorrow! )
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Dear friends!
It is now close to two months since I requested Thor's naturalisation records from Archives New Zealand. But I have heard nothing. Several emails have also gone unanswered.
Is this normal? Any ideas what will happen next?
Magne
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Hi Magne,
Archives NZ can be slow to respond to requests. Which office of Archives NZ was the file held with?
If it was Wellington I could have a look for it.
Spades
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Hi, Spades!
That would be wonderful. I think but am not sure that the file is held in Wellington:
The Register of Persons Naturalised before 1948 [Archives Reference: IA 52/26, REPRO 1646 & 1647] holds the following entry:
Breck, Thor Matison [Age] 41 [Born] Skesoken [Nationality] Swedish
Miner, Brighton, Westport. [Date of naturalisation] 30 September 1893 [File number] 1893/2212 - [Archives Reference: IA 1 18933/2212].
Magne
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Yes, it is, I know it well.
I hope to visit Archives again on Friday so I'll have a look for it for Thor BRECK.
Spades
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Just a thought...
The information you quoted above from The Register of Persons Naturalised before 1948 might be all the data contained in that register. There may not be anything else but I'll have a look.
Spades
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spades, from the look of the reference Magne gave, this comes straight off the namesake microfiche, and the reference at the end points to the specific naturalisation file for the person.
Possibly in this box?
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23630116
Added: this was the only one that showed up specifically for 1893+naturalisation, although I see that it looks to be prior-dated.
Added: Archives ought to be able to locate the file from their reference anyhow: IA 1 1893/2212
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Thanks very much Twiggy,
I haven't researched naturalisations beyond the Register of Persons Naturalised before 1948 before now.
I'll order that file and see what I find.
Spades
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Ah, I see.
Perhaps you may like to check out the flow chart in this document from Auckland Archives then?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tjs/
You will need to add the name "Breck" to your request along with that IA1 number too.
Naturalisation files are 'beautiful' but can be a little scant. They are a 'paper trail' and may include an 'Oath of Allegiance' signed by the applicant, a 'Memorial' detailing the name, age, birth place, current residence of the applicant; sometimes even letters of recommendation. There is something about them that presents the person at their finest!
They are a good way of figuring out when someone arrived in NZ too, especially if they never got married here :)
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Oho, a plain-language flow-chart! ;)
I should be able to pre-order the correct file from home so it's waiting for me.
Thanks very much again Twiggy. ;D
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Hi Magne,
Going through the steps (and probably tripping over on the way) provided by Twiggy Tree I have found that a copy of the applications are held at Auckland:
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ItemAdvancedSearch.do
I'll still look for the file at Wellington because I want to learn something new, so bear with me.
Spades
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I could be wrong on this count, but I think ALL naturalisation files are held in Wellington.
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Looking forward to hearing what you find out. Interesting thoughts, Spades and TwiggyTree!
Magne
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Spades! I just go this reply from Archives, so you don't have to use your time on this subject.
I have resized the file. Hope it is still ok to read.
Question: Can more info be found about the naturalisation? This seems very terse.
Magne
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Hi Magne,
How many pages were in the file? Only the one?
Spades
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Yes, only this one. Is it complete?
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Hi Magne,
I went in to Archives this morning and despite seeing the image above I decided to order the file for my own experience.
Being me, I got it wrong ::) and asked the Archivist for help. I mentioned that there seemed to be only one page in the file and the Archivist expressed surprise, suggesting that such files could run to several pages.
I intend to go back early next week to see the file and if there are other pages I'll take photos for you. Don't get your hopes up because Archives usually sends all the information requested so perhaps that page is all there is.
Spades
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That would be great. As you say, this page is probably all there is.
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Goddag Magne,
The complete file was four pages, but the additions don't really add anything. Archives NZ sent you the most appropriate page.
Could you PM me again, please? I've deleted your email address.
Spades
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God dag!
Will PM now!
M
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Images sent.
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I have now studied the images you sent me Spades!
Two points:
1. They are much more helpful than what Archives belatedly sent.
This is a Dropbox link to Thor's naturalisation (ca. 7 MB): https://www.dropbox.com/s/flfaajy70klqplb/Breck%20Naturalisation.pdf
Question: Are these images and the previous image from Archives part of the same original file, or are these two different files?
2. The images I got from Spades (in the link) reveal that Thor had resided 14 years in NZ in 1893. He must have come to NZ around 1879. This is very interesting and closes a huge gap in his CV. But from where did he come and exactly when
Magne
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Hi Magne,
There is a tree on Mundia with the spelling Thore Mattsson Bräck do you have contact with this person,Should we be looking at this alternative spelling?
Cheers Janette
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Hi, Janette!
Thank you for your post. I think I know of the tree you mention.
And good point: This and other alternative spellings can be both found and used in the search for Thor.
Magne
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Goddag Magne,
Question: Are these images and the previous image from Archives part of the same original file, or are these two different files?
They seem to be two different files. Very interesting.
Can you provide the Archives New Zealand reference and their description for the 'previous image', please?
Spades
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One is the "Letter of Naturalisation" and the other is the "Naturalisation File". Most times the later contains the former. The numbers do correlate. Magne's letter has '93/2212'. The file has IA 1 1893/2212. As far as I am aware these are 2 different series.
added:
Letters http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewEntity.do?code=8377 were former reference IA53
Files? http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewEntity.do?code=8375 were formerly IA1
This may prove useful for the future - a register http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewEntity.do?code=4495
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God kveld, Spades and TwiggyTree!
Your question, Spades: I exchanged emails with Archives concerning this topic and they used this reference:
"I checked in the Register of Persons Naturalised before 1948 [Archives Reference: IA 52/26, REPRO 1646 & 1647] and found the following entry.
Breck, Thor Matison [Age] 41 [Born] Skesoken [Nationality] Swedish
Miner, Brighton, Westport. [Date of naturalisation] 30 September 1893 [File number] 1893/2212
We should be able to locate and copy this file for you [Archives Reference: IA 1 18933/2212]."
Does this shed light on the question I mentioned earlier?
Magne
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I have received an email from Archives concerning the confusion surrounding Thor's naturalisation:
"What I sent you was a copy of the Certificate of Naturalisation for Thor Matison Breck, which comes from the IA 1 series of Naturalisation certificates. The documents your other researcher has provided you with are the letters of application for naturalisation, which are from the series IA 53. These are supporting documents for the certificate, and are not the 'official' record of naturalisation.
I interpreted your request as being for a copy of the Certificate, as this is what our researchers are usually after. Supplying the records from IA 53 as well as the Certificate would have resulted in an increased research charge, as they are two separate records. I apologise for the confusion over this request however, as it might not have been clear what kinds of naturalisation records we hold here at Archives NZ."
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Goddag Magne,
Good, then it looks as though both bases have been covered.
Spades
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Hei!
Ja, det ser slik ut = Yes, looks that way :)
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I interpreted your request as being for a copy of the Certificate, as this is what our researchers are usually after.
I wonder what they base that upon? It's like the difference between a certificate and a print-out on BDMH. In this case, and IMNSHO, the Naturalisation FILE usually contains more useful genealogical information.
Anyone else care to comment?
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My thoughts exactly, TwiggyTree.