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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: bugle boy on Sunday 03 March 13 20:52 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone here help me date this picture of my Uncle. I was hoping that perhaps the webbing and service dress might be a clue and the use of mules to pull equipment. Could this be prewar Palistine? Regards. B/B
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Hi BB,
I have moved the photo to the general Armed Forces board, from WW2.
I think it is WW1 era or thereabouts.
More knowledgeable helpers will be along soon, no doubt :)
Prue
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Probably 1917 Palestine when British and Australian Troops began ops to protect the Suez Canal and Sinai Peninsula.
Looks like Royal Horse Artillery.
James
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it looks very much like Egypt, however I tend to agree with the above post although ( the Palestine campaign) covered a vast area
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my uncle was born in 1904 and enlisted very young into the army.Lets say at 20 that would put his enlistment in 1924.in this pic it looks like he has a rank of a full corporal or higher,it takes a few years to achieve that so im guessing somewhere between1927 and 1932,but as I say I am only guessing? was hoping someone could have dated his webbing?
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have you applied for his military records this would hold a wealth of info.
or perhaps enlarge his cap badge which would/could help date and identify more accurately.
do you know if he was enlisted perhaps in Australian. Canadian forces?
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have you applied for his military records this would hold a wealth of info.
or perhaps enlarge his cap badge which would/could help date and identify more accurately.
do you know if he was enlisted perhaps in Australian. Canadian forces?
hi lynne his cap badge is that of the "London Irish Rifles"part of the British Army Im about to apply for his service record and gathering as much info as I can,hence me asking to date the pic.want to send as much info as I can.would have been much easier if I had his regimental number ,thank you for your reply lynne. B/B
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Webbing looks like 1908 pattern so not much help there.
Ady
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Connaught House,
Flodden Road,
London,
SE5 9LL.
webmasterhatlondonirishrifles.com (replace the hat)
you could email above with your picture for details, had a look at their we site and the rifles were only in Palestine 1917-1918 (a little early for your uncle Tommy) however during WW2 they were in Northern Iraq and North Africa 1942 (onwards)
hope this helps a little :D
Moderator comment: Email address obscured to prevent spam.
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have you applied for his military records this would hold a wealth of info.
or perhaps enlarge his cap badge which would/could help date and identify more accurately.
do you know if he was enlisted perhaps in Australian. Canadian forces?
hi lynne his cap badge is that of the "London Irish Rifles"part of the British Army Im about to apply for his service record and gathering as much info as I can,hence me asking to date the pic.want to send as much info as I can.would have been much easier if I had his regimental number ,thank you for your reply lynne. B/B
Another thought is have you got his birth date correct as he could well have been there during WW1 the 2nd battalion went to Palestine and Greece, I ask this as the London Irish rifles were disbanded 1919. (if his birth date is correct then he would have been far to young )
Just a thought ' from a silly old woman ' ;D
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have you applied for his military records this would hold a wealth of info.
or perhaps enlarge his cap badge which would/could help date and identify more accurately.
do you know if he was enlisted perhaps in Australian. Canadian forces?
hi lynne his cap badge is that of the "London Irish Rifles"part of the British Army Im about to apply for his service record and gathering as much info as I can,hence me asking to date the pic.want to send as much info as I can.would have been much easier if I had his regimental number ,thank you for your reply lynne. B/B
Another thought is have you got his birth date correct as he could well have been there during WW1 the 2nd battalion went to Palestine and Greece, I ask this as the London Irish rifles were disbanded 1919. (if his birth date is correct then he would have been far to young )
Just a thought ' from a silly old woman ' ;D
After the cessation of hostilities, the LIR was reduced to cadre strength, before being disbanded in May 1919 at Felixistowe. In February 1920, the 18th (County of London) Battalion of the London Regiment (London Irish Rifles) was reconstituted as a component of the 47th (2nd London) Division of the new Territorial Army, and in 1923, the designation of the Regiment was shortened to 18th London Regiment (London Irish Rifles).hi lynne as you can see the London Irish were up and running again 1920
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It would be unlikely that a member of Territorial Force or Territorial Army post WW1 would be overseas except in wartime.
Are you certain this is your man and confident of date of birth?
He has no campaign medals so it's either pre 1921/2 or he never served overseas in wartime Or he's a post war enlistee
Ady
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:) :) :)Hi ady,of course thats my uncle,he was a career soldier,came back from Dunkirk in a pair of pt pants,he served for more than 20 years and was highly decorated soldier and ended his career as a warrant officer,and I know that he was born in 1904.thanks for your reply.
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Hi again Ady:
If you go to the part of this site called Photograph Restoration and Dating, You will see a picture Of my Uncle Tommy which I asked to be colourised. He looks to me like he is about 22 yrs old. The photograph at the moment is on page 2. The badge clearly shows London Irish Rifles, and he is in Khaki drill. (Middle East).
Uncle Tommy as a Young Soldier
« on: Sunday 03 March 13 18:14 GMT (UK) »
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Hi again
Ok so we know its your man but it may or may not be overseas he is wearing 08 pattern webbing which was in use up to WW2 he has stripes so he's done a few years and the cap badge does look like the London Irish Rifles.Also the other guy in photos has black buttons which signify a Rifles Regiment
They don't have campaign medals which rules out WW1 service or other campaigns prior WW2
So it could be UK? He doesn't wear tropical jacket or nor do the other lads in background.
Also it's pre 1937 as the regiment started to wear the Cabernet headdress then
If he was a Territorial I would see it highly unlikely that he would be overseas unless it was wartime then they would be mobilised.If and when you get his records from MOD then hopefully it will all click into place.
Ady
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hi ady, there is no"other" guy [both pictures are of the same person, My uncle,] Also I did six years my self in the Royal Ulster Rifles and know a little militaria, as I clearly stated him being born 1904 rules him out as serving in ww1,hence no capaign medals. also those pic clearly show that they were taken abroad, I never knew of K/D to be worn in Britain,out of curiosity Ady did you ever serve in the Armed forces? B/B :) ps Cabernet?sure you dont mean Caubeen?
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hi ady, there is no"other" guy [both pictures are of the same person, My uncle,]
I think Ady means the other fellow in this photo (there are two men pictured after all) ;)
ps Cabernet?sure you dont mean Caubeen?
I suspect an autocorrect function has been playing fast and loose with Ady's text.
(Ady, hope you don't mind me stepping in here - and hope I'm correct in my assumptions!)
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thank you Prue for your enlightenment on this topic,would just like to point out that mules and horses were used in places where motorised vehicles would have found it difficult to travel also in the desert it could be pretty cold at night and im sure service dress rather than K/D was preferred.ps I am posting this bit of LIR'shistory. Inter War
After the cessation of hostilities, the LIR was reduced to cadre strength, before being disbanded in May 1919 at Felixistowe. In February 1920, the 18th (County of London) Battalion of the London Regiment (London Irish Rifles) was reconstituted as a component of the 47th (2nd London) Division of the new Territorial Army, and in 1923, the designation of the Regiment was shortened to 18th London Regiment (London Irish Rifles).
During these years, ties between the London Irish Rifles and the Royal Ulster Rifles (RUR), which before 1921 was known as the Royal Irish Rifles, were greatly strengthened, and the London Irish became part of the Corps of the RUR in 1929.
In 1937, when the London Regiment was disbanded, the LIR became known as London Irish Rifles, The Royal Ulster Rifles. After the 47th Division was also disbanded, the London Irish transferred to the 56th (London) Division. Permanent staff were all seconded or attached from the RUR, but up to 1937, the Regimental Sergeant Major was normally found by the Irish Guards. The London Irish was one of the first Territorial units to start mechanisation by drawing up two "Commer" trucks
The Regiment's piper-green head-dress, the Caubeen, which was worn by all Irish regiments, and was characterised by being sloped to the left instead of the right — only the LIR and Liverpool Irish having theirs sloping on the left - was adopted for wear by all ranks in 1937 in place of the service dress cap.
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Prue
Thanks yep auto fill kicked in new tablet....caubeen is quite correct:-)
I was talking about the guy face on not side on in the photo with distinct black buttons.
I was trained as a mule handler by both the British Army and USMC and have used them in all environments.....in fact the British Army kit was same as been used in the pic. :)
You need his record of service to confirm where he served.
Added: the more I look at it the more I think that the photo shows a Regular Soldier post WW1/pre 1937 in the Royal Ulster Rifles not the London Irish.
They were in Egypt in 1934.
Confusion in the Regiments - it wouldn't be uncommon for a Senior sergeant to be posted from affiliated Regular Regiment (RUR) to permanent staff at TA unit London Irish.
Service record will confirm either way. No way a Territorial would be overseas pre WW2
Ady
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finally things are falling into place,,I have a pic of my uncle tommy, on the bottom of it. It say" kings studio Hong kong "that would have been 1935 and I now believe that the picture of him on horse back was taken in India;I am posting this excerpt I took from wiki pedia on a Lieut Col Terence Otway RUR. In August 1939, during three months leave, Otway married Stella Whitehead, daughter of Basil Whitehead of Bovey Tracey, Devon, a retired Colonial Police Officer, who had been Chief of Police in Penang, Malaya. Terence and Stella returned to Rawalpindi, but Stella flew home in April 1940, while the battalion returned by sea to Oxford for conversion to mechanised infantry (from the camels, mules and horses they had been using in India.)
In December 1940, Otway was promoted to Major. He went to Staff College in June 1941, passing out 4th of 200 in December 1941. During 1942 he served as a Staff Officer in London, responsible for briefings and briefing papers for the War Cabinet. In July 1943 he returned to the R.U.R as a Company Commander. The battalion was part of the 6th Airborne Division.
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That's Good news :D
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thanks katie ;D
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http://www.britisharmedforces.org/i_regiments/royulstrifle_index.htm
Here's where they were
Ady
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thanks ady, things are starting to fall in some sort of order.as I mentioned I have a pic of him in hong kong,also had one of him and a bunch of his platoon stretched out in something that looked like a wadi annd written on the back was "waiting to trap some arabs" i think that could have been in palestine.I always thought he had been in the 1st RUR and later went to the LIR As a young lad I remember him visiting my mum and in his caubeen he had a sky blue hackle.that would have been about 1945/46 and I was about 8years old. :)