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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Clare => Topic started by: KiwiHugh on Sunday 17 March 13 03:40 GMT (UK)
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Are there any Pay to View Birth and Marriage sites that cover County Clare. From NZ records John Butler was born circa 1863 to parents William and Bridget nee McMahon. Not expecting to get any furthur back but would like to trace where in County Clare he was from. William is listed as a Labourer
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Are you aware of the following registered in Gort (soth Galway)?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR4M-FSQ
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Thanks Gaffy Had seen it on a free search at a P2V site but only knew Galway not Gort. Unfortunately she is the only birth showing up in Galway to a William and Bridget nee anything. The dates are very close though. Verbal history says John was an only child but another of my Greats had the same story told. Turned out to be one of 12 births , but the only one to survive childhood. That name Bridget McMahon is so common and William Butler is hardly rare either so had tagged it as a maybe but possible double up.
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Did John die in NZ? If so perhaps purchasing his death printout will give you his place of birth. :) I have had to do this with my County Clare family.
Cheers
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Hi Leandra Both Marriage and Death just said Co. Clare. Hit the same wall with all my Irish ancestors ie only County listed.
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Thank you to the person who sent me the PM listing off the one place that offers a "package deal" Pity for the person wanting to look up a single record that may exist near the beginning of record keeping.
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Hey Gaffy. The birth of Bridget to William and Bridget McMahon suddenly looks more hopeful. Have found it listed elsewhere under Crusheen baptisms, with more details. Turns out they were from the Townland of Bun(n)ahow which is a tiny sliver of 157 acres in Clare that juts into the townland of Beagh in Galway. The Union is Gort hence probably the confusion. When you do a search of "Bunnahow" most of the hits are for well off Butlers but they seem to have been there for a while so the younger son of a younger son etc could easily have "descended" to being a labourer.
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Hey Gaffy. The birth of Bridget to William and Bridget McMahon suddenly looks more hopeful. Have found it listed elsewhere under Crusheen baptisms, with more details. Turns out they were from the Townland of Bun(n)ahow which is a tiny sliver of 157 acres in Clare that juts into the townland of Beagh in Galway. The Union is Gort hence probably the confusion. When you do a search of "Bunnahow" most of the hits are for well off Butlers but they seem to have been there for a while so the younger son of a younger son etc could easily have "descended" to being a labourer.
Yes, I see what you mean, most hits coming back refer to William Butler of Bunnahow, JP and High Sheriff of Clare... and there's a William Butler of Bunnahow (not sure if the same man) whose estate in the early 1870s was so important (750+ head of cattle / sheep) that when they auctioned it off they put on a special train to bring in potential buyers.
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Not a pay per view but a free one ;D
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/genealogy/genealog.htm
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The ones showing up in the "histories" are not likely to be mine. If you read up on them their wives get a mention and while some of them are Bridgets (seems every third woman was a Bridget) they are not McMahons. My William was a "labourer" from NZ records but they generaly gave the lion share of the estate to the eldest son and the younger siblings had to fend for themselves. While the girls had the option of marrying well, the boys had to make their own way. Would not take many generations before your (distant) relatives were in sod shacks. Verbal family history says John was an only son, but have found the danger of that when another GreatGpa turned out to have 11 siblings, but who had all died in childhood. In that case the widowed mother aka "the crazy aunt" followed said son out to NZ and did a 4 year (1880-84) Evangelical speaking tour of NZ and Auz and was a HIT sensation, before an adulterous scandel and departed for California (with new man) and outsurvived him (son) till 1925. Fortunately a GreatAunt went to visit her and the American records gave confirmation of it all.
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Alas now we can see the parish registers Bridget clearly has the word illegitimate in her entry.
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Not a pay per view but a free one ;D
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/genealogy/genealog.htm
Thank you so much for posting this. Did a search not expecting much but I may have linked some names form Kiltanlea and surrounds all the way to Kapunda South Australia . Gives me hope to investigate some more so thanks you once again :)
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Hi Leandra Both Marriage and Death just said Co. Clare. Hit the same wall with all my Irish ancestors ie only County listed.
Do you have printouts of the births of his children? If he was the informant he may have given more detail.
I have one ancestor whose death certificate says Cornwall, but when he registered a daughter he said he was born in Berkshire (and that matches the ship manifest).
Another says Scotland on death certificate, but Edinburgh on the child's birth registration.
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No as a NZ birth cert would not have that info. As this is my grandparents generation living memory and what is available online for free has given me almost as much info as a certificate would.
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Birth printouts in NZ from about the 1880s onward have the place of birth of the parents. I don't know whether this is on a Birth Certificate, but it is on the printout. It may just say Co Clare or Ireland though.
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:-[ By jingo Hurworth you are right. When I looked at my files it was mostly marriage and death certs of my Greats and Greatgreats. I had been thinking that as I knew when, where and by whom my Grandparents and Great Uncles and Aunts were born that there was no need for them. Looks like DIA is about to get more of my money
I have been PMed that a John Butler's baptism is showing up in 1860 with a default date, residence at Bunahow and William described as a Gentleman but so far have not found it in the registers myself. Yet both his marriage and death certs describe his Father as a Labourer. In Oct 1920 he has a circa birth of 1862 and in Nov 1896 he has a circa birth of 1863. Then there is Bridget described as illegitimate in Jan 1865. :-\
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;D Well if the landed Butlers of Bunahow are my ancestors then John was a bastard son of either William Thomas Butler 1838-1867 or :o his Grandfather William Butler 1784-1871.
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Have come across a snippet that William Butler of Bunnahow continued to exercise the feudal custom/right of brides on their wedding night being sent up to the main house to spend it with William. It did not indicate which of the possible Williams it was, but William I lasted till 1823 and implies a family mind set.
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Finally got the birth certs and alas no smoking gun. 3 of them had Kathleen/Kate/ Catherine as informant. 1 said Ireland only, 2 had Kates townland but only said County Clare for John. John was the informant for 1 and only had the County listed for both John and Kate. Interesting that after 9 years of marriage Kate could not state where in County Clare John was from.
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Finally got the birth certs and alas no smoking gun. 3 of them had Kathleen/Kate/ Catherine as informant. 1 said Ireland only, 2 had Kates townland but only said County Clare for John. John was the informant for 1 and only had the County listed for both John and Kate. Interesting that after 9 years of marriage Kate could not state where in County Clare John was from.
So what is now known? Townland? What townland?
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Did you know that you can now view images of the Irish civil registers for free?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
Records started in 1864, which may be too late for John but he may have had younger siblings.
You can use this
http://www.swilson.info/regdistmap.php
To find the registration districts in Co Clare.
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IF we knew townland, we'd know what RC Parish...
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For Kate we have family memory backed up by records. Uncles even tromped around the place in the 1960s. John is my problem. The only people showing up in County Clare that match his parents names (NZ records) show a birth for a Bridget in Crusheen ,illegitmate from church records and Father a gentleman from Bunn ahow from Civil reg.. The estate covered all of the townland and even spilled over into the next County. I have been PMed that a John does show up (somewhere )as being baptised in 1860 to the same people. It was suggested by my PM informant that the priest may have moved his record book onto his next church and hence it not showing up in Crusheens records, but does ( I assume ) at a pay site.
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Opps. Thank you all, especially for the link to the civil reg. Knew the site but did not realise that it included that
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Well I found it at that site that begins with A and the records are in a different format than those at NLI where Bridget shows up. And it was the Grandfather as it is William Butler Snr. Separate register for illegitimate children.
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Well I found it at that site that begins with A and the records are in a different format than those at NLI where Bridget shows up. And it was the Grandfather as it is William Butler Snr. Separate register for illegitimate children.
You are allowed to type out the word Ancestry ::)
Separate register for illegitimate children. ???
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Have to admit my Latin is a bit sketchy. Church was in English by the time I can remember it. Fancy printed book with something like "Illegitamati something" as its main heading. This John was from William II Butler which while he would have beem quite old (OK ancient) is slightly better than it being William IV Butler who while not married in 1860 was most definitely by 1865 when Bridget was born to the same parents. William III died relatively young. From the six records I have Johns age flucuates by 3 years but 2 of them would have him born only a year from lateish 1860
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I think many of us are happy to take a look at records for people who may be your family members but the information provided is currently too cryptic.
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I think many of us are happy to take a look at records for people why may be your family members but the information provided is currently too cryptic.
Not much more one can do..... too confusing!
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I only did my recent post re the nz birth certificate information as a closure on this post. But if people think they can find anything further then the relevant info is on page one. But to sum up. John Butlers parents were William Butler and Bridget McMahon from County Clare. John was born (from nz records) circa 1862 thru to 1864. Both his marriage and death certificate indicated his parents were married and that William was a labourer. I now feel that these were lies, as opposed to saying Mum was a bed warmer to a 76 year old widower (wife died in1857) ,also the local landlord. There were 5 generations of William Butlers at Buna how. (the gap is because my tablet is determined to turn it into bungalow) From the Crusheen (nearest town) records there were John born in 1860 and Bridget born in 1865 , both illegitimate and William a gentleman from Buna how..The Butler estate covered all of Buna how and even stretched into Galway. iIn 1860 and 1865 Williams II and IV were alive but the bapt record for John says it was William Senior. I have read that William Butler (probably Number one) still practiced the feudal custom that brides were sent up to the main house for their wedding night indicating a feudal mind set of the Butler men even in the 1800's
. In 1860 numbers ll and IV were alive
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KiwiHugh! Hi! I've pm'd you!
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2020 update. DNA has linked me to the Willam Butler 1784-1871. Matched a Butler Researcher and more detailed info from his will leaves £100 for Bridget McMahon and £100 each for Catherine Butler c1855, John Butler 1860, and Bridget Butler c1864. Bridget McMahons death c1825-1875 reg was by c15 yr John Mahon all in "John fudge"
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Kiwi Hugh, who did you test with so I can look out for you in my matches.
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Ancestry and MyHeritage.
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Me too. Will PM you ;D