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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: clairelouise on Thursday 21 March 13 17:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I need help again please, I posted a while ago about the surname Enfield and was given a name of John W Enfield as my gt grandfather, but having a conversation with my mum about 20 mins ago and she tells me that her grandfathers name was Arthur & her grandmother was called Edith. Now we are confused as I have John and Emily?
Thanks Clairelouise
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Hello, is this not the info about Arthur in a previous thread of yours? --
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,556468.msg4091968.html#msg4091968
It's always best to add to an existing thread so everyone has the same information starting out as you have. :)
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In your previous thread you said:
"My Grandparents names are Edward ernest enfield he married Doris Edith Jolliffe in 1931."
That marriage is in the index at FreeBMD
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
but there is no birth to match Edward.
I suspect he may have been born Ernest Edward Enfield in 1909 in Colchester, and gone by his middle name.
(My grandfather born in 1901 did just that, and married as Edward as well. ;) )
I believe that EEE's parents were John William Enfield and Emily Alice Davey who married in Colchester in 1898 ... so I appear to have come up with the same suggestion as someone else did in a previous thread I couldn't find ...
If you don't have your grandparents' marriage certificate, that is the thing you absolutely need.
Unless there were some unusual circumstance (like your Edward Ernest's parents not being married), that certificate will tell you his father's name, and also his own age.
Ernest Edward Enfield born 1909 died in 1977 in Colchester.
>>>> edit -- my confusion: the name at death was Edward Ernest Enfield - but the date of birth matches the birth of Ernest Edward Enfield.
Doris Edith Enfield born 1910 died in 1978 in Colchester.
That EEE would seem to be a good match. But only your grandparents' marriage certificate will give you the info you need - unless your mum can also tell you her grandfather Edward's date of birth, for instance.
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Thank you for replying, mum says her grandparents were arthur and Emily, got confused over gt grandmother s name, but john is not gt grandads name. Think that makes sense. I've spoken to my uncle who has confifmed this info.
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clairelouise, what are you wanting to find out -- Edward Ernest's parents and grandparents?
The only way you are going to do that is to start with his marriage certificate which will tell you his age and father's name.
Then you will be able to look for a birth that matches the age, and look for him in the 1911 census with his parents.
As it stands, there is no birth that matches your information, other than the Ernest Edward I pointed out. And it seems clear that his father was John.
I wondered whether John might have died and he was brought up by Arthur, but no, John didn't die until 1930, at age 60, when your Edward would have been an adult.
We all have to get certificates to get on the right track, at some point. You do absolutely need your grandparents' marriage certificate in order to see what it says for your grandfather's age and father's name (and occupation).
The wife of John W Enfield was Emily.
The wife of Arthur G Enfield was Emma Lines Brooker. They appear to have had no children. Perhaps, for some other reason, Edward was brought up by them.
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I've just added an edit to my previous post about the death in 1977 of EEE but there is a little more to add.
The death was registered in both names:
Edward Ernest Enfield
Ernest Edward Enfield
born 19 May 1909
death registered Sep quarter 1977, Colchester Essex
vol 9 page 1825
-- the registration info is the same for both entries.
Clearly his correct name was Ernest Edward Enfield, and he had married as and gone by the name Edward Ernest Enfield all his life.
Assuming this is your grandfather, he was the EEE born in 1909 whose parents were John and Emily -- unless he simply lived with them and his parents were actually other people.
Your grandparents' marriage certificate and the 1909 EEE birth certificate are absolutely essential if you want to progress.
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Hi
there is a fmily listed at 33 mile end street colchester on the 1911 census
John William enfield 40
Emily alice enfield 36
Percy william 11
Arthur George 9
Emily Constance 7
Frederick Charles 5
Ernest Edward 1
and Mary Ann Davey 76 .are they your folks
Rnnie
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Hi vabbott - I have indeed been alluding to that household, but posting 1911 details here isn't permitted so that's why I didn't. You could always send vabbott a private message. It's been six weeks with no further word, and that fact still is that the marriage certificate and the 1909 birth certificate are what's needed, since clairelouise is apparently adamant that the father's name was Arthur and not John.
I wondered whether Emily might have remarried to an Arthur, but that doesn't appear to be the case. She died as Emily A Enfield in 1954 in Colchester.
It doesn't matter how many people "confirm" that Edward/Ernest's father's name was Arthur and not John if the records say otherwise -- he may for some reason have been known as Arthur, but his name was John William Enfield, and he married Emily Alice Davey in 1898 in Colchester. (They had another child in 1913, Leonard.) Unless, as I said, Ernest/Edward was really a child of another Enfield relation, reared by John and Emily.
Or maybe Emily partnered informally with an Arthur after the death of John W Enfield in 1930 in Colchester. Electoral records for the period 1930-1954 might show something, if that were the case. But clairelouise still has to start with Ernest/Edward's marriage certificate.
clairelouise said in her previous thread:
"My Gt Grandfather is Arthur G Enfield who is my grandfather's Father, Edward Ernest Enfield is my grandfather."
Arthur shows as aged 13 in the 1881 census. Arthur George Enfield married Emma Lines Brooker in 1895 in Colchester. Arthur and Emma had no children. I can't see a birth for him - he appears to have actually been born as Herbert George Enfield. Herbert G Enfield died in 1938 in Colchester, aged 70.
Maybe he and his wife Emma reared Edward/Ernest.
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Hi vabbott - I have indeed been alluding to that household, but posting 1911 details here isn't permitted so that's why I didn't. You could always send vabbott a private message. It's been six weeks with no further word, and that fact still is that the marriage certificate and the 1909 birth certificate are what's needed, since clairelouise is apparently adamant that the father's name was Arthur and not John.
I wondered whether Emily might have remarried to an Arthur, but that doesn't appear to be the case. She died as Emily A Enfield in 1954 in Colchester.
Hi Thanks for the note .I did not realise I was not supposed to post that info on here. i will try to remeber in future
Ronnie :)
It doesn't matter how many people "confirm" that Edward/Ernest's father's name was Arthur and not John if the records say otherwise -- he may for some reason have been known as Arthur, but his name was John William Enfield, and he married Emily Alice Davey in 1898 in Colchester. (They had another child in 1913, Leonard.) Unless, as I said, Ernest/Edward was really a child of another Enfield relation, reared by John and Emily.
Or maybe Emily partnered informally with an Arthur after the death of John W Enfield in 1930 in Colchester. Electoral records for the period 1930-1954 might show something, if that were the case. But clairelouise still has to start with Ernest/Edward's marriage certificate.
clairelouise said in her previous thread:
"My Gt Grandfather is Arthur G Enfield who is my grandfather's Father, Edward Ernest Enfield is my grandfather."
Arthur shows as aged 13 in the 1881 census. Arthur George Enfield married Emma Lines Brooker in 1895 in Colchester. Arthur and Emma had no children. I can't see a birth for him - he appears to have actually been born as Herbert George Enfield. Herbert G Enfield died in 1938 in Colchester, aged 70.
Maybe he and his wife Emma reared Edward/Ernest.
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My mother was an Enfield directly related to the people that clairelouise refers to.......I am fully aware there are some anomalies in the information which she has provided and I have attempted in the past to correct them for her.....Basically she has been given incorrect information by John Enfield.
This was uncovered several years ago by another party also researching Enfield and I was provided with information that indicated the original error and how it should be corrected.
It is too protracted to go into in a simple way, but it isn't a mystery or anything like that.
It is correct that John W Enfield was married to Emily Davey.......JW was my great grandfather's brother.
AL
PS....My avatar is my Great Uncle Cecil Enfield's battlefield grave from WW1.
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Phew, thank you for that!
It often happens that people who are not directly related to / affected by information about a particular person are sloppy in what they present as fact about them. When I first started, I was thrilled to find someone who had identified my grandfather's grandparents (I knew nothing about my grandfather's family really, but had managed to identify his parents and their parents through censuses) -- until I started checking into it and found she had plucked the marriage of a random man with the same name as my grx2 grandfather, who had also married a Mary, out of the GRO index and called them my ancestors. They weren't. What did she care? She was only related by marriage to one of their children's husbands, so it didn't affect her family tree, but it meant a couple of dozen more names to add to it!
Hopefully, clairelouise will get those certificates to confirm it all in her mind, and not keep searching for a grail that doesn't exist. ;)
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I am 99.999% correct with what I know, because when I first started research on the Enfield family, I was provided with documentation that someone else had obtained while they were researching their link to the family......When we studied the information we quickly identified a family tree by the 'current' John Enfield wasn't quite correct.
...and at the same time, unbeknown to me, another family member on the Enfield side was going down the same road as me, but they were obtaining their information from a completely different source as well, albeit it confirmed what I had discovered.
I have advised clairelouise of this in a detailed fashion, but she seems to choose to ignore it.
AL
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I am 99.999% correct with what I know, because when I first started research on the Enfield family, I was provided with documentation that someone else had obtained while they were researching their link to the family......When we studied the information we quickly identified a family tree by the 'current' John Enfield wasn't quite correct.
...and at the same time, unbeknown to me, another family member on the Enfield side was going down the same road as me, but they were obtaining their information from a completely different source as well, albeit it confirmed what I had discovered.
I have advised clairelouise of this in a detailed fashion, but she seems to choose to ignore it.
Not ignored just not doing this tree anymore.
Not ignored just not going further with this tree, also in future if you want to talk about me like you have don't do it on a public forum.
AL
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You have contacted me on several occasions using your different names and each time I have pointed out to you where your errors lie......therefore don't be surprised that I mention it on a public forum where you asked the same question again.
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I asked the same question again because I wanted clarification on the info you gave me as it didn't tie up with the info I had been given by my mum and uncle. Anyway as I have stated the subject is now closed on this tree .
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clairelouise, you asked the question as if you did not already have a ton of information about it that you didn't tell the people reading you had.
People like me spent our time looking for information that AL had given you. It isn't fair to do that.
Until you get your grandparents' marriage certificate and your grandfather's birth certificate, you should not keep asking other people to find answers for you that are right there in those certificates, and that can only be provided by those certificates. You already had all the other information that anybody could find without getting those certificates.