RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Marianthompson47 on Thursday 21 March 13 22:16 GMT (UK)
-
Hello,
I have just discovered this site and hope someone can assist me.
My grand mother and great aunt were both born in Bendzin, Poland around 1910/1915 and I understand they moved at some point to Germany.
Because they were jewish they then moved to Belgium.
My mother was born in 1928 in Halle auf Saale in Germany.
However, after extensive research and emails, I have not managed to find a birth certificate for either of these family members.
Can someone please help? Thank you :)
-
Hiya Marian and welcome to Rootschat
post the surname and we will see if we can find them in Bendzin
allan
-
Hello Marian,
You should be able to obtain their birth certificates from the relevant registry office in Poland (USC Bedzin), or from the local state archives. I'm in the airport now, so do not have access to my files. But I shall look into this over the weekend for you.
Did these family members make it to the UK before war broke out?
What were the names of your grandmother and aunt?
Justin
-
Hello to both of you and thank you for your kind replies.
It is a very difficult matter as I was told when I was young that my grand mother (Frieda Avemarg born Warman) and my great aunt, her sister (Gertrud Warman) were born in Bendzin, Poland. I have their dates of birth which are somewhere in a file. It appears that they then moved to Germany around the first world war and they both spoke excellent German. They then moved to Brussels where I was born (my mother was Ellinor Avemarg born 17.02.1928)
I have searched to acquire a birth certificate for all three without success. The Polish authorities have told me there is no sign of their existence.
My question is that I believe Russia invaded Poland around 1915. Would this be the reason for their mother leaving the country. Their father, Simon Warman was sent to Siberia for not accepting to divorce my great grand mother whose name I have forgotten and who basically only spoke Polish.
Why did they have German names if they came from Poland? On their papers, it is indicated that they were APATRIDE, a french term meaning they do not belong anywhere.......
I also understand from paperwork that my grand father, Otto Avemarg was sent to a prison in St Cyprien in France for he too refused to divorce my grand mother, Frieda. He worked for the German government. So many questions which remain unanswered......
Maybe someone can give me a right link?
Thanks. :)
-
Looks like a challenge!
You might find that the AGFHS http://www.agfhs.org.uk/ is of some help; or http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/ .....
I'm just reading more about the end of WW2 in Eastern Europe, and from what I'm discovering it is a surprise that any documents survive!
-
http://en.geneanet.org/search/?name=avemarg&ressource=autres
one result for Avemarg - and it is in Antwerpen ,Belgium
NINE results for Warman in Poland ..ALL are in WOJCIECHOW ...none in Bedzin ( unless Bedzin is in Wojciechow ? )
http://en.geneanet.org/search/?page_size=20&ressource=arbre&vplist%5Bname%5D=&name=warman&nbindi=&country=POL®ion=&subregion=&place=&annee_debut=&annee_fin=&source=&ajax_ok=1&sub_frm514d51ca3f977.x=23&sub_frm514d51ca3f977.y=9
it looks like the whole 9 trees have Sarah Warman b 1905 ....is she in your tree ??
Warman has 442 trees on Geneanet...the Majority of them are in England in 1700`s and 1800`s
Simon Warman sounds more English than German to me ..maybe his father / grandfather/g grandfather was in the English Army during Napoleonic Wars and stayed in Europe ?...I wouldn`t have thought Warman had German origins ...??
http://en.geneanet.org/search/?name=warman&ressource=arbre
allan
-
Hello Marian,
Very interesting story.
So Otto Avemarg was not Jewish, but his wife Frieda was. Most mixed marriages came under extreme pressure from the Nazis. As a civil servant the pressure would have been extreme. It was a very noble move on his part to try and keep the family together by fleeing to Brussels. And, BTW, German-Jews were stripped of their nationality by the Nazis.
Your mother would have been classified as a half-Jew, therefore not directly threatened by deportation. Are you also hoping to obtain her birth certificate?
Did your grandmother and her sister survive the war then?
Did Gertrud go to Brussels with her married sister?
Warman sounds German because Yiddish, the language of Frieda's ancestors, is derived from German. There were still Warmans (3 brothers born in early 1900s and their families and a sister) recorded in Bedzin (Bendzin in German) in the census of 1939. Which Polish authorities have told you that there is no reecord of the family in Bedzin?
Bedzin was occupied by the Germans during WWI and did not experience much, if any, fighting. I cannot quite see who would have been forcing your ggf Simon to divorce his wife.
I shall investigate which records have survived from Bedzin.
Take care, Justin
-
Hello again and mostly thank you Justin for your very valuable assistance. I am currently typing on my mobile phone but will log onto my computer later today to give you more information as this keyboard is tiny.Speak later. :)
-
Hello,
I have now a little more information regarding my case.
It seems to me that my great grand mother, grandmother and great aunt must have left Poland very early, maybe after the Russian invasion of 1915.
I have some ID documents which were issued to both when they lived in Belgium.
My grandmother, Frieda Avemarg, Nee Warman(n) was born in Bendzin on 5th April 1911.
My great aunt, Gertrud Warman who never married was born in Bendzin on 5th July 1907.
My mother was born on 17th February 1928 in Halle auf Saale.
My grand father, Otto Adolf Avemarg who was Regierungssekretar (Senior government secretary) was born on 22nd August 1899. Because of his position within the German government, I would have thought I could find lots of information about him but nothing. I have a legal document issued by a German solicitor in 1962 which explains his heirs are due to receive compensation for his enprisonment in St Cyprian, France because of his relationship with a Jewish woman.
It would be wonderful if I could find a birth certificate for at least the three ladies involved.
At the onset of the second world war, my mother told me that she was then 11 and her mother and grand mother were hidden in the attic of their apartment in Brussels. She was allowed to roam free as she was the daughter of a German officer, Otto.
A Polish colleague of mine helped me out two years ago and told me he would/had (?) telephoned the Polish authorities and they had explained there was no sign of my family having been born there. I also wrote to them and received several responses all in Polish to explain pretty much the same.
The German authorities also told me that there was no sign of my mother being born in Halle auf Saale, Germany.
Very strange.
It would be wonderful if I could put the ghosts to rest and find a birth certificate for them and finally find out what happened to my grand mother's father, Simon Warman who I was told was sent to and died in Siberia.
I thank anyone who would be able to assist me with finding a link to this sad story.
Thanks! :)
-
Hello Alan, Yes Bendzin is in WOJCIECHOW.
Also SIMON Warman was known as SAMEEL, and was jewish, as were my family.
They have never moved to England.
I wish I had asked more questions all those years ago but I never thought that I would need to know about them later in life.
Thanks anyway for your links. It is much appreciated. :)
-
Hello Marian,
Which Polish authorities have you and your Polish colleague contacted?
The registry office in Bedzin holds birth, marriage and death records for the periods 1895-1926; 1928-1942. Older records have been transferred to the state archives in Katowice.
Here are the contact details for the registry office:
Urząd Stanu Cywilnego Będzin
11-go Listopada 20
42-500 Będzin
Poland
Telefon: (32) 267 91 30
Your mother was born in Halle an der Saale near Leipzig. Her birth should have been registered in the registry office (Standesamt) in Halle. The contact details are:
Abteilung Standesamt (33.4)
Marktplatz 1
06108 Halle (Saale)
Germany
Tel. +49 345 221-4623
Here's the website: http://www.halle.de/de/Rathaus-Stadtrat/Digitales-Rathaus/Dienstleistungen/?RecID=472 (http://www.halle.de/de/Rathaus-Stadtrat/Digitales-Rathaus/Dienstleistungen/?RecID=472)
The surname Warman does not appear amongst the older records of Bedzin, many of which are online. However, it does appear in mumerous records from the Lublin district. I'm investigating further.
Rgds, Justin
PS One other point of clarity. Poland was part of the Russian Empire at the outbreak of WWI. The Russian invaded East Prussia which was part of the German Empire (the NE of modern Poland). The Eastern Front came to within about 70 miles of Bedzin. That was probably close enough to trigger an exodus.
-
Hello Justin,
Thank you so much for your extensive research and I will respond to the best of my ability.
I am not sure who my Polish colleague contacted in Poland. He asked me for money to cover his calls and told me that he unfortunately could not give me any good news, other than it seems my family did not originate from there (?)
I contacted ARCHIVUM PANSTWOWE in Katowice.
Also URZAD STANU in Bedzin, which you also have listed.
Thirdly, ARCHIWUM GLOWNE in WARSZAWA.
None of the above were able to help me.
I will write to the Standesamt in Halle to find out if they can help me but I have a strong feeling I have already done this. I need to get out all the letters (copies) I have sent and the responses I
have received.
I thank you also Justin for the information you gave me regarding Prussia and the invasion around the period of the first World War.
I await with anticipation any further information you will be able to give me.
Thanks again!
Marian
-
Hello Marian,
It's been a busy week.
Exactly what did the USC in Bedzin say or write?
In the meantime, I have established that the Warman family recorded in the 1939 census in Bedzin came from Nowy Korczyn about 150km east of Bedzin.
The surname Warman appears in the Lublin district, particularly in the triangle Lublin-Chelm-Zamosc, from the 1830s onwards.
Take care, Justin
-
Hello Marian,
You'll be able to understand the following better than I do ...
'Ce dictionnaire a été constitué par Claude GEUDEVERT qui a exploré toutes les sources relatives aux Juifs originaires de partout dans le monde, qui ont habité ou bien qui ont transité par la Belgique et principalement par Bruxelles avant de se diriger vers d'autres pays et d'autres continents. Les informations provenant des différentes Archives de Bruxelles ont été complétées par d'autres envoyées de France et des Pays-Bas.'
http://www.genami.org/Fichier-belge/lettre-w.php (http://www.genami.org/Fichier-belge/lettre-w.php)
You'll notice that the dictionary records somebody with the surname Warman born in 1904 (!) in Lubarsow (PL). The record should probably read Lubartow, a town some 20 km north of Lublin.
Added: Ista Warman, b. 1904 in Lubartow, was deported from Belgium to Auschwitz in 1942. She was murdered there.
Did I understand you correctly that Frieda's mother was also living with the Avemargs in Brussels? Maybe, she was the person born in Przytyk in 1885.
Added: Icek Warman, b. 1885 Przytyk, was also murdered in Auschwitz.
Frieda, Gertrud and their mother went into hiding during the war. Did they all survive? What was their mother called?
Justin
-
Hello Justin,
Thank you for your great effort to help me Justin.
French is my mother tongue and so I found it easy to read.
I understand from conversations I had with my mother Ellinor that she was living with her mother and aunt, as well as her grand mother somewhere in Brussels at the time of the second world war, so in 1939.
I have in my possession various papers and especially one issued by a Census in Brussels (unfortunately no date given) which lists My mother (Ellinor), her mother (Frieda) and father (Otto) all living together at an address in Brussels. No sign of her aunt or grand mother.
During the second world war, my mother always told me she was living in Brussels and that her close family were living in hiding in the attic as the female side of the family were Jewish. It appears that someone had found out about their hiding and denounced them to the Gestapo who were about to come and arrest them. However the war ended shortly after and they all lived in peace.
I suspect Frieda's mother must have lived with her/or Frieda's sister Gertrud as she was elderly and a widow.
My grand mother gave birth to my mother at a very young age (she was 16) and so my mother's birth would have been listed under the name Ellinor Warman(n) as opposed to Avemarg, the name she took on when Otto married her mother on 30th June 1931 in Halle auf Saale, East Germany.
My mother did her schooling in Germany. I am not sure why they moved to Brussels (?)
All of the above is so very complicated but I thank you for all your research which it seems does not apply to them.
Thanks again Justin. Marian
-
Hello again Justin,
I forgot to add that all the letters received from Poland are in Polish. I asked my Polish colleague the meaning of them and he replied they said the persons were unknown to have been born there.........
-
Hi again Justin,
Looking through my various papers, I have come across a piece of information which I had not seen before.
It seems that my great grandmother's name was Helen(a) FRIEDLER, yet again a German name and I have a date of birth of 1890 with LU between brackets ....., and presumably this was her maiden name (?) I believe I will never know.
Regards - Marian
-
Hello Marian,
LU? I can't explain that. What document have you found?
Did Helena die in Belgium? Would it not be possible to obtain the death certificate? It may provide some additional clues.
The Standesamt in Haale must surely be able to provide a marriage certificate for Otto and Frieda.
I think it would be a very good idea for you to contact GenAmi http://www.genami.org/en/ (http://www.genami.org/en/), who may be able to suggest other avenues of research in Brussels.
Otto probably felt compelled to leave Nazi Germany after the implementation of the so-called Nuremberg Racial Laws (in German: Nürnberger Rassengesetzen) in 1935. Being married to a Jewess, he was in breach of the first law 'to protect German blood and honour' and could have been found guilty of Rassenschande, i.e. defiling his race. He would have faced imprisonment and/or hard labour.
I have made enquiries about the completeness of the birth records in Bedzin's registry office. I shall make some more.
We'll get to the bottom of this somehow.
Happy Easter.
Justin
-
Hello again Justin,
The name Friedler and year of birth are my own notes given to me by my sister who lives in Brussels. I have called her tonight to find out a little more and she has given me some additional information.
My sister told me that she in fact has found the grave of my great grandmother, Helen Friedler in Crainhem, near Brussels.
I queried why the unknown name (Friedler) and she could not explain. However, this has now opened another door as I know the address (in Anderlecht, a suburb of Brussels) where she lived last and where she died, because I was there. Good news but also bad as I do not have a precise date, it was either in 1957 or 1958........(I was only 10). The plot really does thicken. Once I can establish this date, I could ask for a death certificate and presumably, it will be my great aunt, Gertrud who will have filed this.
I am not sure neither what LU stands for, it was written in a hurry whilst my sister visited about 5 years ago.
I could also write to the Standesamt in Halle to ask for a marriage certificate and this would be an additional document for me to work on and delve further back.
Otto was indeed a Christian and I have a document which proves that he was sent to St Cyprien, a prison of war based in France because he would not divorce his Jewish wife. In fact the document (written in German) was issued in the sixties by a solicitor in order to raise compensation for his incarceration and other things. Unfortunately I have forgotten a lot of the German language and need to get it translated.
I so much appreciate your kind assistance with this enormous problem. I told my husband this morning that it is a shame I am not able to forget about the whole thing and let things lie. But something tells me I must find out more about them. They are the reason for me being alive.
You too enjoy Easter.
Marian
-
Hi Justin,
I forgot to thank you for your link of Gen which I will approach too. Thanks !
-
Sorry Justin, it's me again.
I have looked at the list from the Genami website and found that a
FRIEDLER was listed under :-
FRIEDLER (Bedzin 1883/Den Haag 1915/Kanczuga 1903)
Two words are of great interest, being Friedler and Bedzin. And the date could be the date of birth of my great grand mother, which would tie in. But I am not sure about the rest of the info as in Den Haag etc.
Thank you once again.
Marian
-
Bon soir Marian
I think it can do no harm to obtain a death certificate. I can probably find out the information such a certificate normally provides.
I had also seen the Friedler records on the GenAmi site. I think it means that there were three people with surname Friedler; each place and date referring to a different individual.
I have had some feedback from some researchers (well actually from the Executive Director, Jewish Records Indexing - Poland) who informs me that his project team has indexed all the records from the USC Bedzin and they could not find any Warmans either. He says that the birthplaces given for foreign immigrants were often incorrect, and urges further research in Belgium. He will be giving me the name of a woman who has extensive experience in the field.
If you scan the German letter and post it to this forum, there are plenty of people (including me) who could translate it for.
One cannot let these lie. Once you've been infected by the genealogy virus, you'll never be cured.
Take care and good night from Dortmund.
Justin
-
Hallo Justin!
I will write to the commune of Anderlecht to try and obtain a death certificate with the hope it will contain valuable information. Certificates in Belgium can be obtained free of charge. Und wenn Sie Deutch sprechen, Gertrud hatte ein Geschaft in Dortmund und htte such dar geleben.
I have truly been bitten by the bug and need to find out.
Thank you.
Marian
-
I will scan the document and if possible post it to your private box. It is about six pages long.
Thanks Justin
-
Hi Justin
Nearly 10 years later and I have had some success.
My great grandmother was actually born Chaja Frydler on 18.3.1891.
A Polish genealogist found her birth certificate in the State Archives of Katowice, written in Russian.
Her own mother was Sura Feldman and father was Mendel Frydler.
-
Hello Marian,
I've just got back from visiting my son and daughter in Dublin.
Persistence has paid off. I take that the genealogist wasn't able to find our anything more on the Frydlers.
-
Hello Justin
Good to see you again and I hope your dear ones are well. The genealogist said her daughters were not born in Bedzin.
I have managed to find her mother and 7 siblings on Ancestry together with her own grandparents.
My tree is coming on. If you wish to view it, you are very welcome. I've included photos too.
But the search carries on. I was told births were not always recorded in Prussian times and people didn't know the place they were born in...dixit someone on the Bedzin Facebook page.