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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Waterford => Topic started by: MoranD on Wednesday 24 April 13 18:13 BST (UK)
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Records show a marriage of John Moran / Margaret Dempsey in a Protrstant church Waterford city in November 1829. Another marriage shows a couple of the same name married in Catholic church in Carrickmon Suir in August 1830. All baptism certs for children to parents of these names are in St Johns Catholic parish Waterford city. One of these children my great grandfather.
Is it likely that John and Margaret were married in both churches?
If so does it indicate that one had been a Protrstant, one Catholic?
I believe John died 1881 but can't burial record or grave
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Waterford library www.waterfordlibrary.ie has a Burials register :)
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I have recorded all inscriptions in Protestant graveyards in Waterford City, i cant find a John Moran in any of them.
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Thanks very much for your replies and thanks for looking up your records Vasaborg.
Could it have been usual during those times to marry in both churches? I suspect that this couple, married in both churches was one in the same, based on 2 facts.
1) unusual name combination - it's the only combination of these two names being married in all the records.
2) only 1 family - all children married to a couple with these names appear in the same parish.
Stumped...
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It could have been a mixed marriage- when you say "Records show a marriage of John Moran / Margaret Dempsey in a Protrstant church Waterford city in November 1829" do you mean it was a marriage in the Church of Ireland or was it another Protestant denomination?
If it was a mixed marriage in a non-Catholic church possibly the 1830 ceremony 10 months after the first one was to make the union legitimate in the eyes of the Catholic church. When was the first child baptised? wondering if the baptism could have been conditional upon the marriage of the parents.
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Interesting thought Aghadowey.
The Protestant wedding was actually In St Patricks Church of Ireland.
The CI wedding was 17 Nov 1829. The Carrick on Suir RC one was 1st October 1830.
I have RC baptism certs in St Johns for all but the first child Ellen. Ellens 2 marriage certs stated RC.
Her second cert on 16 October 1876 specified age to be 45 yrs old. So she was born between October 1830 and October 1831.
The second child was baptised 4th Aug 1832.
Are you thinking that Ellen may have been baptised Church of Ireland? Haven't seen the CI baptism records...
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I was thinking that the parents could have gotten married in Church of Ireland in Nov.1829 but then 10 months later something happened to make a 2nd (Catholic) ceremony take place (birth of 1st child, family pressure, etc.) or that perhaps the priest wouldn't baptise child unless they were married in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
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Seems logical Aghadowey. Hopefully the CI baptism records will show that one of the parents was Church of Ireland... Gotta get to the bottom of this one ???
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I'm not sure to what extent it affected the validity of marriages in Ireland but, for England and Wales, 1829 was significant as the year of catholic emancipation. Up to that time catholic marriages in England and Wales were not recognised by the state, but, I think did happen, but often in addition to a marriage in the local CoE parish (sometimes on the same day).
Is it possible that the couple were both catholic and wished to take advantage of the fact that they could now have an "official" catholic marriage.
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Hi Dudley, very interesting thanks.
Strangely in Waterford there are many Catholic marriage records pre 1829 - back as far as 1750 or earlier. I had been very surprised to see this as I had thought that this wasn't allowed.
My guess is that they were mixed religion couple with John having possibly been Church of Ireland. Or John may have been trying to "fit in" in a city ruled my Anglicans, which it was. My Dad doesn't believe that his Great Grandparents could have been anything but Catholic
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May have solved this with information which I got on the Cheshire Archives site. See below. I believe that the rules governing UK would have been the same here. Just replace "Church of England" with "Church of Ireland". Sound logical?
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"People of English Protestant denominations who did not follow the teachings of the Church of England, were known as non-conformists.
Before 1837, whatever their religious beliefs, most people were baptised, married and buried in the local Church of England parish church.
Despite differences of belief and even after the Toleration Act of 1689 which gave them the freedom to worship, many non-conformists continued to use their parish church for registration purposes.
Some non-conformists kept their own registers during the period 1689 -1837. These were mainly for baptisms and burials.
Between 1754 and 1837, legislation made it illegal to marry anywhere but in a Church of England parish church. Exceptions were members of the Society of Friends (Quakers) and Jews who were exempt from this Act and permitted to keep their own records."
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Another quote from the same site. This must have been the same in Ireland?
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From 1754 to 1837, most Catholics complied with Hardwicke’s Marriage Act and married in Anglican churches to ensure that the marriage was valid under English law. However, many couples also had a Catholic marriage ceremony. It was only following the Catholic Relief Acts of 1778 and 1791 that a Catholic church could be legally registered as a place of worship and that Catholics felt it safe to keep registers which identified them. Subscription to the Roman Catholic church in Cheshire tends to be confined to urban areas.
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Legislation was often separate for Ireland, and the dates would be different - as far as I know Hardwicke's Act only applied to England and Wales, similarly the 1837 date. Registration of non-catholic marriages commenced in Ireland as a result of legislation in 1845. Full registration of births, deaths and other marriages started in 1864.
Catholic marriages took place well before this, without any additional marriage in the established church, although sometimes those Catholics that were well off married in the established church for legal reasons - e.g. property transfers, wills etc