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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: brian1944 on Wednesday 12 June 13 20:51 BST (UK)
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Catherine Jones where did she come from who was her mother we know she had a sister elizabeth(known as lizzie) and a brother thomas.catherine married joseph james powell in pontypridd in 1917 marriage cert states she was married from 23 tylacelyn rd in penygraig rhondda her father name is given as john jones a miner in 1920 she lived at 13 hill street penygraig rhondda that is where her son was born in 1920 is name was john he was my hubbys father.
We know at sometime in the 60s 70s lizzie was a patient at the parc mental hospital in bridgend her name then was elizabeth curtis she has been deaceased many years we have no living relatives to ask so its really like looking for a needle in a haystack there are so many catherine joneses fogot to say she was born in 1898
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You could try asking on here if anyone has acess to the 1901 census, if she was born in 1898 she would have been around 3 at the time of the census,if her brother and sister were older than her they would have been on it as well, I know Jones is a common name but it is worth a try
Best wishes Bethan
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this is the best match I can see on 1901 in Penygraig Rd. There is a sister Elizabeth but father's name is wrong
Thomas Jones 34 - hewer, b Aberdare
Catherine Jones 34
Wm Jones 13
Eliz Ann Jones 9
Rt Jno Jones 7
Cath Jones 4
Mary Mary Jones 1 [image says Marg Mary]
Dav Jones 4 Months
Marg Jones 68 - widow b Llansamlet
reference RG13, 5018, 123, 3
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In 1911 there is a Catherine Jones born in Penygraig 1897 listed as a niece and as a nurse aged 14 at 6 David St Williamstown under the head of house Elizabeth Rees
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Hi
1901 Census living at Bedw Rd Pontypridd
John Jones b 1869 Merthyr Tydvil
Sarah Jones b 1873 Talley Camarhen
Catherine M Jones b 1897 Pontypridd
Alban Jones b 1899 Pontypridd
Was Elizabeth and Thomas born after the 1911 census
Margp
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Hi Brian
Can you tell us when Catherine died, also on the marriage to Joseph, does it give any occupation for her and who were the witnesses
Do you have the year of births for Elizabeth and Thomas
Margp
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thanks for your reply on her death cert she died on 1st april 1979age 80 yrs at dewi sant hospital pontypridd
on marriage cert they got married in pontypridd on 1st may 1916 she was age 17yrs if that is correct she was born in 1899 not 1898 as we was led to believe she was born on july the 11th no profession on cert her father john jones miner.
I have tried our local library no luck the only thing the lady in the library could tell me that in 1918 at 23 tylacelyn rd (under) which i take to be a under house (rooms) there live a henry jones elizabeth jones and john jones which we assume is catherines father,elizabeth was born 1895 not sure when thomas was born maybe 1893.
My hubby seems to think they came from cardigan area he is not really sure
Thanks very much Patricia
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thanks for your reply on her death cert she died on 1st april 1979age 80 yrs at dewi sant hospital pontypridd
on marriage cert they got married in pontypridd on 1st may 1916 she was age 17yrs if that is correct she was born in 1899 not 1898 as we was led to believe she was born on july the 11th no profession on cert her father john jones miner.
I have tried our local library no luck the only thing the lady in the library could tell me that in 1918 at 23 tylacelyn rd (under) which i take to be a under house (rooms) there live a henry jones elizabeth jones and john jones which we assume is catherines father,elizabeth was born 1895 not sure when thomas was born maybe 1893.
My hubby seems to think they came from cardigan area he is not really sure
Thanks very much Patricia
forgot to say witnesses Thomas+Elizabeth Curtis elizabeth was her sister
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thanks for your reply on her death cert she died on 1st april 1979age 80 yrs at dewi sant hospital pontypridd
on marriage cert they got married in pontypridd on 1st may 1916 she was age 17yrs if that is correct she was born in 1899 not 1898 as we was led to believe she was born on july the 11th no profession on cert her father john jones miner.
I have tried our local library no luck the only thing the lady in the library could tell me that in 1918 at 23 tylacelyn rd (under) which i take to be a under house (rooms) there live a henry jones elizabeth jones and john jones which we assume is catherines father,elizabeth was born 1895 not sure when thomas was born maybe 1893.
My hubby seems to think they came from cardigan area he is not really sure
Thanks very much Patricia
Hi Patricia.
If the information about where they were living in 1918, if this comes from the Electoral Register, I don't think Elizabeth would have been mention, the age for this to be entered was 30 for a women, so Elizabeth may be the mother and Henry and an older brother.
Do you have the marriage certificate for Elizabeth, did she have children, do you know who Thomas married, have you found death or burial record for John, local to where they lived, as there may be a grave with information about both the parents.
Margp
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Hi
An outside possible:
Elizabeth Jones, Catherine's sister, married Thomas Curtis in Pontypridd, March q, 1916. I've found the death of an Elizabeth Curtis, Bridgend, March q, 1970. Her birthdate is given as October 1889
1901 RG13/5065/37/9
Banwen, Caegurwen, Llangiwg, Glamorgan (a way from Pontypridd but possible)
John Jones, 35, Colliery Horse Driver, b. Pumpsaint, Carmarthenshire
Lizzie, w, 32, b. Ystalyfera, Glamorgan
Polly, d, 15, housemaid, b. Pumpsaint
Bessie, d, 13, b. do
Annie, d, 12, b. do
Jane, d, 11, b. do
Rosy H, d, 4, b. Brynamman, Glamorgan
Lydia, d, 2, b. do
Catherine L, d, 1, b. do
David Morgans, boarder, 23, colliery horse driver, b. do
Bessie is a diminutive of Elizabeth
This info also fits with later info:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWXN-BVL
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWXN-BVT
It might be worth following them on the 1911. Unfortunately, we can't give full information from that census, only info from free index.
Gadget
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Hi
1901 census all born in Llanddeiniolen Caernvonshire except for Elizabeth
John Thomas Jones b 1872 occ Slate Quarry man
Elizabeth b 1873 Llanrhyddlad Anglesey
Lizzie b 1895
Catherine b 1899
Thomas b 1901
I know that this is out on the DOB for Lizzie on the DC, but this information is only as good as the informants knowledge
Margp
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Hi
1901 census all born in Llanddeiniolen Caernvonshire except for Elizabeth
John Thomas Jones b 1872 occ Slate Quarry man
Elizabeth b 1873 Llanrhyddlad Anglesey
Lizzie b 1895
Catherine b 1899
Thomas b 1901
I know that this is out on the DOB for Lizzie on the DC, but this information is only as good as the informants knowledge
Margp
Seems an awfully long way from Glamorgan, Marg. Also John was a colliery worker. It doesn't seem at all right to me.
PS - you've not given the address or Ref number ! Ref - RG13/5271/62/14
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Hi Gadget
Patricia is not sure where they are from, she did mention Cardigan, as there is nothing in the Glamorgan area, I though I would widen my search, I would have thought there is not a lot of difference in mining slate and mining coal, and in those time they went where the work was. ??????
Margp
Sorry about the ref for the census that's why you have 8 star and I only have 6 ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Marg
Still think it's a long way -the family that I found were in Glamorgan:
Hi
An outside possible:
Elizabeth Jones, Catherine's sister, married Thomas Curtis in Pontypridd, March q, 1916. I've found the death of an Elizabeth Curtis, Bridgend, March q, 1970. Her birthdate is given as October 1889
1901 RG13/5065/37/9
Banwen, Caegurwen, Llangiwg, Glamorgan (a way from Pontypridd but possible)
John Jones, 35, Colliery Horse Driver, b. Pumpsaint, Carmarthenshire
Lizzie, w, 32, b. Ystalyfera, Glamorgan
Polly, d, 15, housemaid, b. Pumpsaint
Bessie, d, 13, b. do
Annie, d, 12, b. do
Jane, d, 11, b. do
Rosy H, d, 4, b. Brynamman, Glamorgan
Lydia, d, 2, b. do
Catherine L, d, 1, b. do
David Morgans, boarder, 23, colliery horse driver, b. do
Bessie is a diminutive of Elizabeth
This info also fits with later info:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWXN-BVL
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWXN-BVT
It might be worth following them on the 1911. Unfortunately, we can't give full information from that census, only info from free index.
Gadget
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Did you find any of them on the 1911 free index, Marg?
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Hi Gadget
I can't see any of them on the 1911 census, Jones is as bad as my lot, Jenkins ??? ??? ???
Marg
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That's why I asked, Marg. I can't find them anywhere ???- and I've looked on and off all afternoon (in between ironing!) I've not tried emigration or deaths but it seems strange that neither of us can get a positive hit on them :-\
I'd like to ask Patricia about Thomas - was this just from the marriage cert - in which case it was most likely Lizzie's husband - or was it from family info? There was a Thomas on the free 1911 index which I gave a link to, but it could be a red herring.
I've got Jones, Roberts, Hughes, Griffiths, Evans, .................. all North/Mid Wales, none in the South ;D
Gadget
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Thank You MargP
That is the correct family my hubby always said he believed that she came from somewhere very welshy because she and her siblings spoke fluent welsh and hubbys father could speak some welsh but under stood if anyone spoke it i cannot thank you enough we have been looking for this for a long time you people must be very clever i do not speak welsh but Diolch yn Fawr which i think means thank you in welsh
LOL Patricia
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Patricia ~
There's no evidence so far that they are your family, especially that they can't be found in 1911. However, it's your decision!
Gadget
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ToGadget
So it is just a long shot that the dates of birth are all correct i dont think so
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I've found a good looking family on the 1911 (on FindMyPast) but can I refer to it at all?
Deirdre
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Hi
We are trying to find a Catherine with a
Father John
Sister Elizabeth known Lizzie
Brother Thomas
No other siblings
On the 1918 electoral Register at the address 23 Tylacelyn Rd where Catherine was living on her marriage certificate, there is John, Elizabeth and Henry
So from the above information, we now have the possible parents John and Elizabeth
This the only family to be found with the above named combination, I think that it is a strong contender, but it is up to Patricia to either prove or disprove this
Marg
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The family I found (reply 20) has a father John, mother Elizabeth and children Elizabeth, Kathy and Thomas....
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Hi Deidre
Can you find one of them on Family Search index - if so, you could put up the link as that's allowed.
Gadget
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Hi Deidre
Can you find one of them on Family Search index - if so, you could put up the link as that's allowed.
Gadget
Here's Thomas, the son...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWX8-NSW
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And Kathy (listed as Ratty on FindMyPast!)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWX8-NS7
Elisabeth:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWX8-NS3
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That looks a good match, Deidre :)
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It does, doesn't it, brings them down south, speaking Welsh, Elizabeth (Lizzie) in Parc hospital in later years... :)
Something to work on anyway.
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Something to work on anyway.
Thing is, we need more proof with Joneses :-\
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Very good find Deirdre, myself and Gadget have been looking most of the day for that, I think that confirms this for me, that the 1901 census is the correct family
Margp
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Very good find Deirdre
Thanks ;D
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A thought for doubting Thomas, me!
Any chance of getting Lizzie's marriage cert to Thomas Curtis - it might give her age as a check and other info. Nothing in parish records that I can see so a civil ceremony, maybe.
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Good Morning all
I am off to Wales later today until Sunday, I may go along to the NLW and see if I can find any BMD's for the Jones's, I am a bit pushed for time, Gadget do you have the details for the Curtis marriage, I will look for that while I am there
Marg
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Hi Marg
Elizabeth Jones married Thomas Curtis in Pontypridd, March q, 1916. Don't have the vol/page ref handy.
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget
Marg
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Thanks to you all for spending your time looking for me.
Different Subject
You cant always believe what you find we spent time looking for catherines husband joseph james powell we found him after a long search him and his brother edward his real name was power not powell changed it dont know why was told years ago by my hubbys mother about it, said it was so
mething to do with getting in to the army,a person i know found his army records.
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Hi Patricia :)
If you need us to look up info on him, just ask :) If you can give us info on his birth etc., it would help.
I don't think marg is back from her expedition to Wales yet!
Gadget
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Hi gadget we found joseph james power and his brother edward on the 1901 cencus living in dinas in the rhondda valley living with his grandmother margaret and an uncle called edward his grandmother his named on his army papers as is next of kin so dont know who his parents were or what happened to them
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Hi Patricia
Just trying to home in on him, is this him:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XW6Y-V19
Gadget
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yes that is him thanks
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I think this is him him in 1901:
41 Bethesda Street, Merthyr
RG13/5031/94/24
Joseph Power, 52, underground labourer, b. Dublin
Mary A, w, 51
Ellen, d 25
Edward, s, 19, ripper in colliery
Mary, d, 16
Joseph,grdsn, 5
Edward, grdsn, 1
Al but Joseph snr were b. Merthyr
I can't find Joseph James in the baptisms but this looks like his birth registration:
Joseph James Power, Oct q, 1895, Merthyr Tydfil, vol 11a, page 654
If you could order this, it should give his parents.
Gadget
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Could this be the family in 1891
RG12/4441/33/18
11 & 12 Hill Street, Merthyr
Joseph Power, 42, fireman, b. ireland
Margaret, w, 42
Anne, d, 19, dressmaker
Ellen, d, 15
Edward, s, 9,
Mary, d, 6
Francis , boarder, widr, 33, fireman
All born Merthyr, except Joseph
(trying to work out who Joseph J's parents were by following back but I think you may need to get the birth cert)
PS - did you get their marriage cert for his father?
Gadget
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Dear Gadget Thanks for your reply seems positive by the dates and ages will try to get birth certificate as soon has i have got it i will leave you know.
Many Thanks Patricia
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Dear Gadget Looking through info i have got i didnt realise i have his birth cert i completly forgot
he was born in 1895 on 25th august at 12 hill street merthyr,mother was ellen power residence of informant X the mark of Mary Ann Power present at the birth at 12 hill street he was registered on 12th october 1895 the registrar was DT Morgan no fathers name so we assume he was illigitemate so i dont suppose we can go any further but i cannot thank you and marg p enough for all the other info you found for me
Thanks Patricia
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Hi Patricia
So it looks as if it was the Ellen who was his mother:
RG12/4441/33/18
11 & 12 Hill Street, Merthyr
Joseph Power, 42, fireman, b. ireland
Margaret, w, 42
Anne, d, 19, dressmaker
Ellen, d, 15
Edward, s, 9,
Mary, d, 6
Francis , boarder, widr, 33, fireman
All born Merthyr, except Joseph
I think this is him him in 1901:
41 Bethesda Street, Merthyr
RG13/5031/94/24
Joseph Power, 52, underground labourer, b. Dublin
Mary A, w, 51
Ellen, d 25
Edward, s, 19, ripper in colliery
Mary, d, 16
Joseph,grdsn, 5
Edward, grdsn, 1
Al but Joseph snr were b. Merthyr
Best wishes to you and your husband. if you need any more help, give a shout. We're all here to help each other.
Gadget :)
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Hi I am back
The NLW did not have any parish records for the Llanddeiniolen area, they said that these were at the Gwynedd Archives.
I checked the Electoral Register for Pontypridd, the next one after the 1918 was 1929, Tylacelyn Rd was not registered in this, a very helpful member of staff, suggested it may be in the Electoral Register for Rhondda East/West and would be under the Penygraig area
I think 11 years seems a long time between the Electoral Registers, so some of the missing years may be under this area also.
I am sorry this as not given you any definite results, but it as given you a few more leads to follow.
I think the next step is to find one of the children's BC to get Elizabeth's maiden name
Marg
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Dear Marg Thanks for all your help i will try what you advised about birth certificate if we have any info i will let you know we are members of the big family history place in cardiff we have been there but we did not have enough info now we have something to go on perhaps we can try again.
One of your researchers (gadget) has also found catherines husband for me i gave her some info on him that his original name was power not powell we found him on 1911 cencus living in dinas rhondda his name was still power then we live not far from there in williamstown.
Thanks again Patricia
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Dear Marg
One of your researchers (gadget)
I'm not sure what to make of that ;D ;D ;D (I'm retired!)
Anyway, I'm wondering if this might be the John Thomas Jones in 1891~
Bryn Delyn, Llanbeblig
RG12/4661/106/19
Catherine Jones, wid, 41, b. Bodvean*, Ca *Bodferin
Thomas J, s, 19, slate quarryman, b. Llanbeblig, Ca
JohnT, s, 17, do, b. do
William t, s, 14, watchmaker's apprentice, b. do
Methusalem, s, 11, b. Llanrug, Ca
Llanbeblig and Llanddeiniolen are very near Caernarfon.
Also on the 1881 at RG11/5565/59/6 . Father Thomas T Jones
sorry in the middle of Thunderstorm so things are a bit hairy!
Gadget
PS - Marg - many of the parish registers for that area have been on FindMyPast for over a year - are linked from Familysearch but nothing there for the family. They might be non-c. A few on the NW BMD but nothing stands out.
Patricia - no one is anyone's researchers - we are all volunteers who try to help out when we can :)
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Dear Marg
One of your researchers (gadget)
Sorry - I'm still laughing at this
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D