RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: laceytreigh on Thursday 27 June 13 09:05 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm hoping someone can help me figure out where my husband's ancestors were married and if it's somewhere we can visit in September when we're in London.
According to the marriage certificate, John Christian Try married Elizabeth Ann Atchison March 5th 1843 at 'the Parish Church in the Parish of the Holy Trinity Minories in the Liberty of the Tower of London'.
I've done a bit of research and I think I understand what the Liberty of the Tower of London is/was, but I'd like to know if this was a church anyone could marry in and if it still exists today.
He was a silversmith and the son of Thomas Try, a machinist and she was the daughter of William Atchison, a color-maker. I also searched his address (8 Union Street, Tower Hill) but couldn't find where it exists today.
As we're travelling from Australia and only have a week in London, we want to make best use of our time.
Looking forward to what you can tell me.
Regards,
Tracey Ellis.
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Hi,
Some background information for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity,_Minories
Nanny Jan
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It is spoken of in the past tense so it looks like it no longer exists. It was apparently just ouside the eastern boundary of the city of London.
I will have a look later to see if I can work out where the home address is or was. Do you have him in any census, which may help if we can get some reference points as to where Union street was.
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Here's what it looked like:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0uxh/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0uxi/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0uxg/
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Just quickly, thank you for replying so quickly. I'll come back tomorrow and write some more. It's bedtime for me here in Oz.
Tracey.
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You may have to be content with visiting the site of the church:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Site_of_Holy_Trinity,_Minories_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1015581.jpg
:-\
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Yes, it would seem the church is no longer there, but at least it's not a carpark!! It's a nice fountain anyway. Thanks Ruskie.
Going back now to the bride's birth, according to information in the diary of her son, Elizabeth Ann Atchison was "born and reared in the Tower of London because her father was a Warder of the Tower. He had been a Warrant Officer in a Highland Regiment." This is a rather neglected branch of the tree (I'm sad to admit) so I have no proof further back than her marriage. Is there any potential truth to this story? Married in 1843 at 'full age', I'm reckoning she was born 1820-22. Where do I look for birth information that far back? I know the GRO goes back to 1837.
Are there records of the Warders of the Tower? And if he had been a Warrant Officer in a Highland Regiment, would that make him Scottish?
I haven't looked for any of these people in census records, I might make that part of my list for the weekend. Thanks for your help so far.
Regards,
Tracey.
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Hi
London births and baptisms on Anc....y has this baptism
20th Jul 1835 at St Leonard Shoreditch
Elizabeth Ann Atchison-born 29th Sept 1820. Father William(deceased) Mother Elizabeth(deceased) Holywell Lane. Trade/Profession Colourman
Also on the same day
Christiana Atchison born 29th May 1819 - same parents, address and occupation
Eliza Georgiana born 3rd Oct 1824 - same parents, address and occupation
Jay
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Thanks Jay,
That's interesting information. I don't have access to that website at home, and neither does my local library, but there's one a short drive away that has a licence to it so I'll have a look next time I go there.
Any idea of what a colourman was?
Regards,
Tracey.
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Hi Tracey,
There are two definitions for a colourman.
1. A person who mixed textile dyes
or
2. A housepainters assistant.
Steve
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Well, Holywell Lane is still there and is a few streets south of St Leonards Shoreditch.
I can't see how a Elizabeth could have been born and brought up in the Tower of London if her father was a 'colourman' who was dead by 1835. She gives his occupation as 'colour-maker' on her marriage certifciate. I would have thought she would have said he was a "Warder of the Tower" or some other military occupation. I wonder if it is possible for him to go from being a military man to a colour man? I would have thought not.
I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this.
By the way, I did look for Union Street and there were quite a number of them - I couldn't narrow down one around Tower Hill, but someone else may be able to. I would like to find them at the address in the 41 or 51 census to give more of an idea as to where it was or is.
PS. You may find lists of warders of the Tower - I'm sure someone will be able to advise you if they do and where to look.
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The surname Atchison is most concentrated in the borders area (northern England/Southern SCotland) so William may have been Scottish. You might need to take into account variations in spelling of the surname which may have origins elsewhere.
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Surnames.aspx
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I ahve no idea if this is a comprehensive list - it doesn't appear to be so as there are few noted in early years. William Atchsion doesn't appear there anywhere that I can see:
http://yeomenoftheguard.com/Yeoman%20Warders%20List.pdf
Maybe if you contact them via the website http://yeomenoftheguard.com/towerwarders.htm#rollcall0 they may be able to point you in the right direction ... :-\
I think I must have lost my searching mojo, but I can't find Elizabeth Atchison in the 1841 census. (looked yesterday and couldn't see John or Thomas Try either .... :'() Hopefully someone will come to the rescue.
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I see at her marriage Elizabeth gives her address as 4 Spital Square - I found that on an old map. It is further south of Holywell Lane off Shoreditch High St which leads into Bishopsgate Street. And a few streets south of this is a Union Street. As they are so close together perhaps this is the where John was living. Now to try to find the corresponding streets on a modern map. :)
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Looking at a modern map, I think Union Street is the part of Brushfield Street from Crispin St to Bishopsgate (with Pizza Express on the corner). A lot of modern office buildings on Union Street but a couple of old ones remain.
[Just remembered the address was "Union St, Tower Hill" ... unsure how this fits in with Tower Hill which is 'down the road a bit'. ;)]
Spital Square is marked on a modern map as running south off Folgate St near Dennis Sever's House. On the old map it appears to be the next street down from the current Folgate St and an extension of Lamb St west to Bishopsgate/Norton Folgate St. If you look at google Street view you
can see the houses of Spital Square. Very visitable Tracey.
[as an aside, if you are visiting the area you must see Dennis Sever's House (it is jaw dropping) http://www.dennissevershouse.co.uk/. I also know of a really lovely boutique hotel if you are looking for a posh expensive place to stay ;)]
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Wow! You guys are really helpful! I love waking up in the morning to find all this information waiting for me to read it.
So, it looks as though another family legend has been dashed. I wonder why Elizabeth's son Thomas wrote these things in his diary? Someone had a fanciful imagination! Maybe it was a popular bedtime story.
I said to someone once that my ancestors didn't 'do' anything special, they weren't well-off or well-known and the person replied 'they survived', which I am thankful for and it makes finding out the truth a little easier to take.
London births and baptisms on Anc....y has this baptism
20th Jul 1835 at St Leonard Shoreditch
Elizabeth Ann Atchison-born 29th Sept 1820. Father William(deceased) Mother Elizabeth(deceased) Holywell Lane. Trade/Profession Colourman
I wonder why anyone would get baptised at age 15? Is that an odd thing or fairly common? I know parents sometimes waited till the child survived childhood, but 15? And with both parents deceased and the 3 sisters baptised together, makes you wonder who arranged it and why?
Thanks Steve for the definition of colourman. Either job was probably quite toxic and would lead to an early death I suppose.
Ruskie, I've read so many of your replies to other people and you continue to be a great source of information. Thank you so much for all your efforts. You've certainly set me up with some homework!
I've seen Dennis Sever's House on a travel show but I'd forgotten about it. It looks really interesting, I'll have to see if we can fit it in. I'd love to be able to afford to stay in a posh expensive place but that might have to wait for another visit. The one after I win the lottery!! The less I spend on accommodation, the longer I can stay in Europe!
Another snippet from the diary says that Elizabeth sang in the chorus at Drury Lane and that's where she met her future husband. Maybe another bedtime story.
Elizabeth and her husband left for Australia in 1853 so the opportunities for finding them in the census are very limited.
Regards,
Tracey.
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Going back now to the bride's birth, according to information in the diary of her son, Elizabeth Ann Atchison was "born and reared in the Tower of London because her father was a Warder of the Tower. ... Are there records of the Warders of the Tower? And if he had been a Warrant Officer in a Highland Regiment, would that make him Scottish?
The Tower has its own chapel, St Peter ad Vincula, which was for the use of Tower residents and prisoners alike. The registers haven't been deposited but are held at the chapel. You could contact their archive for information.
http://www.hrp.org.uk/TowerOfLondon/stories/ChapelofStPeteradVinculaArchives
On the other hand, if William ATCHISON was a Scotsman, his children may not have been baptised into the Anglican faith at birth. That might explain the later baptisms at Shoreditch, if indeed it is the same family.
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I'm not sure I would completely dismiss what John and Elizabeth's son wrote just yet. I can't think why he would fib, unless of course these were the stories he was told by his mother and she 'embellished' the facts. Also, some family stories did get muddled over the years, and it may be an earlier generation or another family member who was 'born and reared in the Tower of London'.
I think there is still a lot more to investigate.
Bookbox may have a point regarding the reason for the later baptisms. Later baptisms do happen but it is not the norm - maybe the parents forgot to get them 'done' when they were infants and after they died the children may have gone to live with relatives who decided to have them baptised. :-\ (just a wild guess)
You will note that in the marriage entry below John and Elizabeth the couple's address is "Tower of London", so perhaps residents had personal preferences regarding which church they used. All the events and addresses are in similar vicinity so it is looking like there is just the one couple. Atchison (and variants is not a very common name in the area though there are a few of them)
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Interesting thoughts Bookbox.
"The Tower has its own chapel, St Peter ad Vincula, which was for the use of Tower residents and prisoners alike. The registers haven't been deposited but are held at the chapel. You could contact their archive for information."
I actually do have a copy of the marriage certificate and it definitely says 'the Parish Church in the Parish of the Holy Trinity Minories in the Liberty of the Tower of London'. That's a different church?
"On the other hand, if William ATCHISON was a Scotsman, his children may not have been baptised into the Anglican faith at birth. That might explain the later baptisms at Shoreditch, if indeed it is the same family." That's a good point. Maybe the mother's family had them baptised after the parents died.
Ruskie, are you looking at the marriage record on Anc----y? I'll have to wait until I get to the library to see it.
Thanks again,
Tracey.
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This looks interesting in the light of the "colourman" occupation.
Freedom of the City Admission Papers
Dyers' Hall, 4th March 1829
This is to certify that William Atchison son of David Atchison of Hoxton New Town in the county of Middlesex Dyer and Citizen and Dyer of London
was this day admitted to the Freedom of the Worshipful Company of Dyers, by patrimony.
In the City of London's corresponding record, William is described as having been "born without the Liberty of the City, to wit at Old St Square, St Luke" in 1803.
His father David's admission to the Worshipful Company of Dyers is said to have been dated 1792. William's claim to be admitted into the Freedom of the City is said to be by Patrimony, in the said company of Dyers, "because he is legitimate, and was born after the admission of his Father into the said Freedom".
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That's a different church?
Yes. The chapel is within the Tower itself. It's a possible place of baptism for someone whose father was a Warden in the Tower (if you want to pursue that lead). The records are not online, as explained above.
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avm,
That is a really interesting find. I'm not sure I fully understand what it all means, but do you think that somehow the Atchison familes connection and close proximity to the Tower of London, along with this Freedom of the City, may have somehow been misinterpreted by later generations? :-\
Tracey - I take it you will be visiting the Tower when you are in London? ;D (and yes, I did see the marriage entry)
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Hi
London births and baptisms on Anc....y has this baptism
20th Jul 1835 at St Leonard Shoreditch
Elizabeth Ann Atchison-born 29th Sept 1820. Father William(deceased) Mother Elizabeth(deceased) Holywell Lane. Trade/Profession Colourman
Also on the same day
Christiana Atchison born 29th May 1819 - same parents, address and occupation
Eliza Georgiana born 3rd Oct 1824 - same parents, address and occupation
Jay
I've been going around in circles looking for the deceased parents William and Elizabeth, (found possible deaths, possible 1841 census but children did not match) - then I discovered that mother is ANN! Other details are correct as per the original baptism records.
I also found an earlier baptism:
Christ Church with St Mary & St Stephen Spitalfields
Mary Ann daur of William and Ann
born Mar 11 1814
chr 11 Oct 1834
Lower Krate(? :-\) Street
Colour-maker
So it looks like they weren't in a hurry to christen Mary either ... parents are not said to be deceased at this baptism - so they both must have died between 17 Oct 1834 and 20 July 1835. :-\
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Whoops. Sorry about the incorrect posting. I think I must have looked at the entry above the Atchison entries and took the mothers name from there. :-[
Jay
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Whoops. Sorry about the incorrect posting. I think I must have looked at the entry above the Atchison entries and took the mothers name from there. :-[
Jay
;D It's easy to do. Didn't help me much anyway as I couldn't find a marriage for William and Ann or their deaths. I hope I have just missed them and they are hiding there somewhere. :)
There are a few Atchison families in the area - it would be interesting at a later date to see if they are connected. So your little boo-boo Jay may lead to piecing together other related families. :)
I am nosey interested to know how both parents died within such a short period of time.
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Good morning/evening everyone,
I'm very pleased that you're so keen to help me solve my questions. avm, I'd love to think that you've found 'my' William,
Dyers' Hall, 4th March 1829
This is to certify that William Atchison son of David Atchison of Hoxton New Town in the county of Middlesex Dyer and Citizen and Dyer of London was this day admitted to the Freedom of the Worshipful Company of Dyers, by patrimony.
In the City of London's corresponding record, William is described as having been "born without the Liberty of the City, to wit at Old St Square, St Luke" in 1803.
I think this man would be too young to be the correct one unfortunately. If Mary belongs to them, and she was born in 1814, Elizabeth was born in 1820 and her sister in 1819 and the others later, surely this William can't be their father?
And if this IS the wrong William, it leaves open the possibility that he's Scottish and he ?? married in Scotland.
It's certainly thrown up a very curious detail. I'm with you Ruskie - how did both parents die in such a short space of time? I've had a look today with what I can use from home (no Anc----y) and can't find any death.
Regards,
Tracey.
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Good point about the ages not fitting Tracey. These people may be related to your Atchisons though - they have names, abodes and occupations in common. :)
Someone on the Armed Forces board may be able to help you regarding the likelihood of William being Scottish if he was a "Warrant Officer in a Highland Regiment". I am not sure if it would necessarily follow. Tracey, you might like to start a new post specifically asking about this (maybe provide a link to this thread in case anyone wants background information).
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Looking at Pre 1855 Banns and Marriages on Scotlands People, there are only 8 marriages listed for a William A*ch*son to an Ann*. Narrowing that down to a more reasonable time frame of 1810 to 1815 there is only one match.
Of course there is no way of knowing if this is your William and Ann but it might be worth purchasing a couple of credits to view this record.
You might like to widen the search to include other areas of the country - as people usually married in the bride's parish, and Ann could have come from anywhere. :-\
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Thanks again Ruskie. I'm thinking it would be really helpful (hopefully) to find William's death, but that's proving to be a bit of a 'quest'. I've also tried Aitchison with no success.
I'll keep these other Atchisons in mind, they might fit in somewhere later.
I didn't realise there was an Armed Forces board. I'll put something over there as well.
Tracey.
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Is it odd that on some records, William is listed as 'deceased' but on Elizabeth's marriage record, which is later than the records that say he's deceased, he's not?
Was the fact that someone was deceased not noted on all future records ie, children's marriages? Just a thought - because I'm struggling to find his death with even such a small window.
Tracey.
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If the question wasn't asked or the information offered then William would appear on Elizabeth's marriage certificate as "colormaker".
It could be that William died when the children were very young with his wife dying much later. :-\
Nanny Jan
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I've found a burial at Christchurch Spitalfields on 21 Sept 1828 - William Hatchison - aged 57. I think Spitalfields was within the Tower jurisdiction. This is on the NBI.
Jay
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Sorry Jay, you need to speak s-l-o-w-l-y to me....... What is the NBI??
Good detective work, thanks. Illiteracy rates were high. I thought of Aitchison and Atkinson, but not Hatchison.
Tracey.
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NBI is The National Burial Index. I bought the latest edition on CD thinking that it would help me track down some of my relatives burial places, but I think I have found more of my friends ancestors than I have mine.
It doesn't give much more info just that it is from the City of London Burial Index Parish Register. I don't know if the original will have that last address of this William or his occupation, so that you could ascertain if he is yours.
Jay
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If the question wasn't asked or the information offered then William would appear on Elizabeth's marriage certificate as "colormaker".
It could be that William died when the children were very young with his wife dying much later. :-\
Nanny Jan
Anything is possible Nanny Jan, however neither parent was said to be "deceased" at the baptism of daur Mary Ann on 17th Oct 1834 whereas both were dead when the other girls were christened on 20 July 1835. It may have just come down to the fact that one vicar recorded a parent as deceased and another did not. It is advisable not to assume too much I suppose. :)
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Hi, I'm hoping to contact Laceytreigh. My son is a direct descendant of John Christian Try. I have only just found your post. I can tell you that Elizabeth Ann Atchison's father was a collar maker as I have her marriage cert when she married Angelo Duvry in 1857. I am interested in chatting about the family and am hoping you could tell me who now has Thomas Try's diary as I only have an exert written by Ernest Scarlett and I am very keen to see anything written about the Try family. Hope to hear from you. Just Jen
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Hi Jen, I'm here! If someone could tell me the best way to contact privately, I'll message you. I'm amazed! Thank you for getting in touch! Tracey.
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I figured it out!
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Hi Jen, I'm here! If someone could tell me the best way to contact privately, I'll message you. I'm amazed! Thank you for getting in touch! Tracey.
Tracey, Jen has to make a couple more posts before you can contact her via Personal Message. Just click on her name to send a PM. All Jen needs to do is reply on this thread a couple more times to activate the PM system.
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Great, I would love to get in touch. how do we do it?
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I really need help to contact Laceytreigh by personal message. we have information that we need to share. can anyone tell me how to do it. Just Jen
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Thanks Ruskie,
We've been in touch and plan to have a chat on the phone over the weekend. I can't believe after all these years, I've found someone on this branch of the tree! It's always exciting to make connections.
Thanks also to everyone who contributed information to this thread.
Tracey.
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Hi Jen, I'm here! If someone could tell me the best way to contact privately, I'll message you. I'm amazed! Thank you for getting in touch! Tracey.
hi to both of you.. I am also a direct descendant of John Christian Try and Elizabeth Ann Atchison (they are my 2 x GG grandparents). TBH I just joined this forum this evening solely so I could make contact with you (albeit, I may have to do a few more things so as to qualify to be able to make direct contact?
Anyhoo, my apologies for being somewhat late to this 'party'... however, here's hoping I may be able to help fill in some gaps for you or perhaps even the other way around?
David