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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: themightysrc on Friday 23 August 13 23:14 BST (UK)
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Hi,
My wife's great grandfather was Greek and came over to Liverpool (UK) some time around 1901 to 1917 (he's absent from censuses). Once here, he did the decent thing and changed his name to Lewis and married a jewish woman from the Liverpool area in an Anglican church!
That's the preamble, here's the issue: the family that remain don't actually know the original Greek family name of this chap, and thus I'm stumped as to how to find out who he was. I know that his Anglicised/adopted name was Anthony Lewis, so maybe his first name was Adonis (?), and I know his age when he married, but that's about it.
Can anyone suggest a way that I can track down this bloke's real identity, as I'd like to be able to carry the search for Greek family back to Greece itself to find out where my wife's forebears actually came from.
Any help will be gratefully accepted.
Cheers,
Simon
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Hi Simon
Welcome to Rootschat!
If he was in the UK 1901 and or 1911 - he may not be absent from the census. It's possibly just you don't know what name he was under :-)
How old was he when he married and when?
And the most obvious question is, what did the marriage certificate say regards his Father's name and occupation?
Cheers
AMBLY
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"Welcome to Rootschat!"
Thank you very much - you were recommended by Bury Library's archives service.
"If he was in the UK 1901 and or 1911 - he may not be absent from the census. It's possibly just you don't know what name he was under :-)"
Well, that's possible. I guess he could have been using his Greek name, or even another English surname before finally settling on Lewis. I'm wondering if there are ships rosters and passenger lists that might help me spot those who got off in Liverpool from Greece in the years? Surely somebody was keeping track...
"How old was he when he married and when?"
He was 27, married 24/1/1917 at Seacombe Church (Wallasey/Birkenhead way) and his profession was shown as engineer.
"And the most obvious question is, what did the marriage certificate say regards his Father's name and occupation?"
His father was one George Lewis, deceased, occupation as sampler (cotton). That's realistic, given the area, but I'm tempted to think that the father was never present in England (due to census information of the time) and that was simply put down as a convenience, rather than putting Yiorgos Whateverapopolis and shepherd (not unrealistic, if Greek).
I'm pretty certain that if this was all around the time of the First World War (as I suspect), then a Greek diaspora wouldn't be unexpected, particularly given that the 1st and 2nd Balkan wars took place between 1911-1913. If I'd been Greek, I'd probably have left the country. Once in the UK, of course, having a Greek name would stand out like a sore thumb - and I don't imagine that people were too fussy who they victimised between 1914-1918.
The final striking thing is that he's down as an engineer - just the sort of thing for crewing a ship - and that Seacombe is absolutely in the dock areas of the Wirral. All the circumstances, to my mind, point towards him shipping in (possibly as crew) and staying in an area that would have probably resembled Piraeus, well, at least on a Greek winter's day...
The only other info I have is that he had 2 brothers, who continued on to America, allegedly, but that's all the family folklore gives on that point.
"Cheers
AMBLY"
Well, thank you AMBLY, and if you can suggest where I might look, that would be helpful.
Thanks,
Si
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Unfortunately, passenger lists were not routinely kept for ships coming in from European ports.
Do you have any later information on his occupation? There were some records of crew members/merchant seamen but he would only be listed, I think, if he worked on British ships after coming to live in the Liverpool area. If he continued to work as a merchant seaman after his marriage, then there are some records we might be able to track down.
I wonder if this could be his naturalisation?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C11202198
The name Λούης (Louis, Loues) does exist in Greece, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyridon_Louis
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"Unfortunately, passenger lists were not routinely kept for ships coming in from European ports.
Do you have any later information on his occupation? There were some records of crew members/merchant seamen but he would only be listed, I think, if he worked on British ships after coming to live in the Liverpool area."
I can check with my wife's great aunt (one of the few left) and see what she can remember of him. I know that his son (another Anthony) was a docker in Wallasey, and my wife's dad a ship's carpenter/shipwright prior to getting in draughtmanship, so it makes me wonder. Certainly, this Greek chap had a son in 1921 - one of 4 eventually - and I'm guessing that that might mitigate against working onboard as merchant crew, but as I say it's a guess.
"If he continued to work as a merchant seaman after his marriage, then there are some records we might be able to track down."
Very handy indeed, if you're right about him continuing to work/starting work as a ship's engineer. I'll check out what he did in the years after 1917, if anyone can remember.
"I wonder if this could be his naturalisation?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C11202198 "
Now that sent shivers down my spine! The date would fit perfectly - he was 27 when he got married. I've naturally fired off an FOI request, so let's see... I can check the birthday - 1st of December 1889 - if U get hold of his death certificate (the next step I think).
"The name Λούης (Louis, Loues) does exist in Greece, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyridon_Louis "
Brilliant stuff - thanks very much. The family thought that it was an Anglosized version of Lewis, and recalled (badly) 'Lucrianos'. I'd checked that against known Greek family names and it wasn't there. It pops up in Italy, Sicily mainly, but despite its ancient Greek links that looked a non-starter, to thank you immensely for your revelations in your post.
Just waiting now for that FOI request to come good (crossed fingers).
Cheers,
Si
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Now I've had a chance to think further, after showing my wife the naturalisation page record, I'm wondering why 100 years? Why 1948? Is that normal/standard?
If it is, then I fail to see what's so embarrassing that it can't be shared 65 years on with the family now. If it's not, then what did he do to be rewarded with such a status?
Can anyone shed any more light?
Thanks,
Si
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Hi & welcome from me also.
Researching in Greece is not that easy and without really knowing where people were born is going to make things pretty difficult.
This is a good link for Genealogy in Greece (once you get that far).
http://www.greekgenealogy.org/
Now going back to the UK.
1891 census has this following family living Kirkdale, Liverpool.
George Lewis 52 head cotton porter (port) born Greece.
Jane Lewis 33 wife dressmaker born Ireland
Eugene Lewis 14 son port errand boy born Ireland
Florence Lewis 14 dau born Liverpool
Helen Lewis 3 dau born Liverpool
Antonio Lewis 1 son born Liverpool
RG12/2966/31/3
Sharon
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1901 has the family transcribed as Hayes and still in Kirkdale Liverpool.
Jane Hayes 42 wife dress maker born Ireland
Helena Hayes 13 dau born Liverpool
Antonia Hayes 11 son born Liverpool
RG13/3469/8/7
Sharon
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Are you sure he was born in Greece?
This seems to be the birth for the Antonio mentioned in above posts.
Antonio Lewis Apr-Jun 1889, West Derby, Lancashire
(8b 392).
Sharon
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"He was 27, married 24/1/1917 at Seacombe Church (Wallasey/Birkenhead way) and his profession was shown as engineer."
Who were witnesses to the marriage?
Sharon
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"Who were witnesses to the marriage?
Sharon"
Hi Sharon, and thanks for reading. As far as I can tell - the handwriting is difficult - a Maggie Edwards and Thomas Ineson (close family I guess).
Thanks to everyone else for the sudden welter of information. My previous hunches and assumptions have all been turned upside down, and I'm being forced to rethink everything I thought I'd uncovered. Thank you to you all. You've managed to discover more about the family than I and my contact in Bury Archives have managed in two months.
I hasten to add that my contact is a great bloke who's done work as a favour to me and my wife and in his spare time, so it's no reflection on his abilities in any way whatsoever; in fact, I would never have found this site without his input.
I'll be showing this thread to my father in law tomorrow. I think he'll be more than a little surprised, and I look forward to being able to startle him a little further in due course!
Thanks all,
Si
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"1901 has the family transcribed as Hayes and still in Kirkdale Liverpool.
Jane Hayes 42 wife dress maker born Ireland
Helena Hayes 13 dau born Liverpool
Antonia Hayes 11 son born Liverpool
RG13/3469/8/7
Sharon"
That's simply weird. Might she have remarried perhaps after George's death (and I don't know when that actually was)?
There's so much to piece together. I'm no longer sure of the family's story of 3 Greek brothers who emigrated (or travelled) in the first decade or so of the 20th century; in fact, I'm really not terribly sure at all of what the story actually is, but I'm still determined to get to the bottom of it.
Thanks to Sharon for the most recent updates.
Cheers,
Si
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Now that sent shivers down my spine!
Wow - me too! I just have to say, Rootschat is a MAGICAL place ;D Si, you have some of the best on your case, jorose's Archive find is so intriguing - Sharon's census - right down to the occupation of the father George, and so on. I'm also waiting with bated breath for the next revelation!
Re: 1948 - If that is your man, I wonder if it's anything to do with the naturalisation status of the father, which impacted on his children and if this Act had any bearing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_Act_1948
Cheers
AMBLY
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"Are you sure he was born in Greece?
This seems to be the birth for the Antonio mentioned in above posts.
Antonio Lewis Apr-Jun 1889, West Derby, Lancashire
(8b 392).
Sharon "
Really not sure at all Sharon! It's an odd coincidence to find an Antonio Lewis born in the same year as an Anthony Lewis, unless they're the same people. If your lead is correct, then I'm guessing that a look at the 1911 census will yield an Antonio/Anthony Lewis/Hayes.
Immensely interesting if you're a spod (like I am).
Cheers,
Si
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. If your lead is correct, then I'm guessing that a look at the 1911 census will yield an Antonio/Anthony Lewis/Hayes.
Immensely interesting if you're a spod (like I am).
Cheers,
Si
1911 does produce the same family.
Also this seems to be George Lewis' death.
George Lewis Oct-Dec 1892, Liverpool, Lancashire
Estimated Birth Year abt 1839
Age at Death 53
(8b 19).
Just wanted to add that the surname Λουης or Λουις is not a very common surname here in Greece.
Sharon
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Hi Simon
Re: the family of the 1891/1901 Lewis/Hayes:
Looks like Eugene died Sep Qtr 1899, West Derby, age 22
The daughter,
Helena LEWIS may have Married Jun Qtr 1897 to William BIRCHALL as I think (by googling) I have found the other two as a couple.
On Rootschat, we're not permitted to do 1911 Census lookups, but there are tools we can direct you too - and of course you can post what you may find (in your own words, not a cut/paste):
Search here:
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?4
make use of the advanced searches - for example search for BIRCHALL who are in Location :Lancashire West Derby & who have HAYES or LEWIS is same household, or search for HAYES who have BIRCHALL in same household, or search for LEWIS who have BIRCHALL in same household. Less is more, just search with surnames.
There is this too:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWT6-MQP
Anthony HAYES
What address did your Anthony get married from?
Cheers
AMBLY
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There is a possible Jane Lewis marriage to a Patrick Hayes in West Derby 1898 (8b 782) & a few possible deaths for a Patrick Hayes between 1898 & the 1911 census in Lancashire.
Sharon
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As AMBLY has pointed out Helena Lewis did marry William Birchall.
William Birchall bachelor (carriage cleaner) married Helena Lewis Spinster on 27/01/1907 at St Timothy Everton
Father's names were John Birchall (woodturner) & George Lewis (cotton porter)
Witnesses were Joseph John Wittle & Jane Birchall
Abode for both was 38 Jenkinson Street
Sharon
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The LEWIS / HAYES Marriage is indexed on Lancashire BMD - it was in Kirkdale ;D
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/marrind.cgi
Cheers
AMBLY
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Oh Gosh..... there is another researcher out there, who has a tree on A**** - it looks to me as if she is descended from of of Anthony's sisters (I'm picking Florence, but could be Helena). She has all this same info re the census etc. Including that:
Patrick HAYES age 44 widower, mariner fireman (father Jeremiah, Labourer Deceased)
married:
Jane LEWIS 39 widow, (father Patrick McAuley (deceased, soldier) both of Rockingham St
The researcher has no information on (or online, at least) for Anthony (Antonio), except for the Census 1891, 1901, 1911 . Similarly nothing else for George LEWIS - thought she does say George LEWIS and Jane McAULEY married 1879 St Aidens Liverpool ( but I can't find that on indexes? and I'm doubting it because of the older children's birthplaces and age gaps from Florence to Helena etc) . There are a couple of tree errors (A** 'hints' added in by mistake, which are not right - Florence's supposed baptism being one of them...
But guess who Florence LEWIS definitely married in 1900, Liverpool.... Arthur INESON !
Cheers
AMBLY
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1901: 2 Mason Street, Edge Hill, West Derby, Liverpool
RG13 - Piece 3496 / Folio: 92 / Pg31
Head: Arthur INESON 24, Labourer, Railway, b
Wife: Florence INESON 21,
Dau: Martha INESON 2
Son: Arthur INESON 3mths
All born Liverpool
And of course, your Anthony LEWIS married Martha A INESON - who is age 1 in 1891 in the household of her parents John & Martha with other children also, including son Arthur, age 13 ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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Liking this 1881? But if that's them, where's Eugene...
1881: 12 Richmond Row, Liverpool,
RG11 / Piece 3631 / Folio 107/ Page 24
Head: Pat'k HIGGINS 47, Labourer, b Ireland
Wife: Emma HIGGINS 37, Laundress, b Somersetshire
Dau: Elizabeth HIGGINS 13, b Seacombe, Cheshire
Dau: Charlotte HIGGINS 10,
Son: Thomas HIGGINS 4,
Son: James h HIGGINS 7 mos,
Nephew: James PRING 17,unm Labourer b Bath Somerset
Nephew: Thomas PRING 11, Office Boy b Bath Somerset
Boarder: George LEES 40, married, Publican, b Greece
Boarder: Jane LEES 24, married, Dressmaker, b Ireland
Dau: Florence M LEES 11mths, b Liverpool
Sister: Ellen BUTLER 18, unm, Barmaid, b Ireland
Lodger: Mary Ann MOOR 22, unm, Mattress Maker, b Liverpool
Lodger: Michael GARANHAL married, 30, Labourer, b Liverpool
Wife: Jane GARAHAM 27, married, b Liverpool
Cheers
AMBLY
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Check this out - all about Florence:
http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/957850
It appears that initially her descendants thought she was born in Greece too… and they thought her father might be really named: Antonio Georgius Luciarnous
(it also point out Florence was 10 in 1891, not 14 as transcribed on the index - and just checked the image, she is 10 :-)
Cheers
AMBLY
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More trees on A. One of them has:
Anthony LEWIS born 21 Apr 1889 (but nothing more and no source for this date)
Father: George LOUIS b 1839 Greece, d 25 Nov 1932,Liverpool age 53.
Mother: Jane McAULEY, b abt 1858 Ireland, d 1917 Liverpool age 59
Other facts incorrect (incl that Helena died 1901)
Cheers
AMBLY
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So was Eugene (probably Ευγενιος) George's first child? If so this could pinpoint that George's father's name was Ευγενιος as the Greek naming pattern has the first 2 children born named after the father's parents.
Sharon
Can not find a birth gor Eugene in UK.
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Wow!
I can only say thank you immensely to everyone who's pitched in thus far. I'm very humbled by your efforts for a complete stranger. What an amazing site this is.
I met up with my wife's dad this afternoon/evening and showed him all the evidence thus far. He's now vowed to get involved (hurrah!) and collect more info from rellies.
I'm still sifting through what's been posted thus far, so I apologise if I can't give individual thanks to everyone, but rest assured I will contact everyone in due course to record my gratitude.
The hunt's still on for George Lewis' original name and location, but I'm hoping that I now have a fighting chance.
Thank you all, and I'll let you know as and when any new developments occur.
Yours, most gratefully and sincerely,
Si
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One quick question - this is for AMBLY - what is the A**** reference? Ancestry.com?
I've followed the GenesReunited link, and I'll be in touch with that (re)searcher tomorrow.
Thanks again all. I'm just wondering now how to follow George Lewis back to his native Greece. Any ideas?
Cheers,
Si
PS - you chaps really are the best.
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Just a brief note to everyone as an update.
The FOI request was actioned, but sadly it's not our chap, but a Russian Jewish immigrant instead.
I'm now in touch with the Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain and laying out the known facts for them - I'll let you know how I get on.
Thanks again for the help: if you find anything else, please post it here.
Cheers,
Si