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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: chrishicks on Tuesday 17 September 13 14:46 BST (UK)
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I found quite a lot of info on my great grandfather John Albert Sydenham Eyre born 1864 and his wife Fanny Eyre nee Morgan born 1866 but have lost track of both of them after 1891 census can't find any records of deaths etc any suggestions???
chris
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Just to confirm are they the couple with 3 daughters in Lambeth in 1891?
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Yes that is correct Fanny,Lilian and Florernce, they went on to have three more children I think.
Chris
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Sorry mean to say that I have traced some of the girls down to a school in Essex in 1901 census
Chris
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Found a marriage for Lilian Edith Eyre 24 father John Sydenham Eyre in 1913.
Groom is James William Hicks 22.
Brides father is down as deceased so he must have died between 1891-1913.
One of the witnesses is Maud Elizabeth Eyre.
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There's a Maud Elizabeth born 1894 * could be the sister on the marriage witness.
If they had another 2 before parents died that narrows it down.
Which girls did you find in 1901?
* yes she is baptised daughter of John Albert and Fanny 11 May 1894.
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Thanks for your reply
The girls I found at the school were Lilian,Florence and Daisy. The names I have found out that could be their daughters are Lilian(as above married James william Hicks) Fanny,daisy,florence and Maud Elizabeth there is supposed to be a Violet and either James Albert or Albert James
Chris
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Baptisms with parents John Albert and Fanny
Lillian Edith 11 June 1889
Florence Margaret 6 Jan 1891
Albert James 17 Jun 1892
Maud Elizabeth 11 May 1894
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What kind of school was it does it say? I wonder if they were orphaned before 1901 :(
There are two Violet Eyre baptisms 1883 and 1904 but with different parents.
Sorry I can't find the girls in 1901 - is the surname spelt any different?
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The school was South Metropolitan District School in Sutton Surrey(sorry I thought it was essex) I think it was a school for poor or orphaned children. If they were orphaned why can't I find a death record for either John or Fanny, this is what is so confusing. The other childs name ie Violet was by word of mouth so I know it is correct.
Chris
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Right got it thank you but can only see 2 of them Lily 10 Daisy or Florence 11. I think Daisy was a nickname for Margaret so Florence Margaret Daisy are all the same person.
I agree the deaths are elusive but the name is easy to misrepresent so could be under something else.
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also Fanny - the oldest child in the 1891 is there .... the written page says Daisy or Florence - which matches the Florence in 1891 ...
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I also thought that the name could be wrong in the death records but for it to be spelt wrong twice, for John and Fanny, seems strange....Looks like it will probably stay a mystery.Thanks Chris
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What sort of school is it? Doesnt look like a workhouse type set up. Maybe John and Fanny were went abroad and the girls are in boarding school. What was John's occupation?
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The school was set up for the poor children/orphans of the East End of London as far as I can find out. I have spoken to the people who have the archives and I am going to have to pay them a visit to get a copy of the records I might then have a clue as to why they were there. I think the most likely event is that either the Father or Mother died and they were sent off to the school, I am sure that if the parents had gone abroad it would have been known in the family history.Johns occupation was a floor cloth printer.
Chris
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One possibility might be that they died together in an incident that resulted in no bodies being recovered, for instance by drowning, and thus no death certificates were possible. It seems far-fetched, but it's one of those statistical possibilities that has to happen to someone!
In 1891 John was a wood turner. I doubt that this would mean that if he was deceased, he left an estate to support the daughters.
Lily and Daisy/Florence were in an institution operated by South Metropolitan District Schools in 1901. This was indeed one of the publicly operated institutions for children of deceased or impoverished parents:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/SouthMetSD/
THE SOUTH METROPOLITAN INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS AT SUTTON, SURREY.
The act of Parliament under which Schools of this kind are constituted was passed some years ago, yet little progress in carrying out its provisions was made until recently — the City of London Union Schools, at Norwood, and the North Surrey Schools, at Anerley, having been the first in operation near the metropolis. They are for the maintenance, education, and industrial training of the pauper children appertaining to any particular parish or union of parishes, in a mode whereby it is deemed that much moral, physical, and economical advantage will be obtained by bringing the children together in an out of-town locality, and under a special discipline, instead of rearing them within the confined walls of an ordinary workhouse, where the means of suitable education are limited and imperfect, and where also the demoralising influences and associations are very great. ...
That article is illustrated and has a huge amount of information that you will find interesting.
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Thank you so much for that information I will read the article. Hopefully when I receive a copy of the records it might say why the girls were put in there.
Chris
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I wonder whether this might be Albert James's death in WWI:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/255478/EYRE,%20A%20J
Identified only as AJ Eyre, died 6 November 1918 -- imagine ... 5 days before the war ended. (My mother's uncle died 5 weeks before it ended, and it just makes the pointlessness of dying in the pointless war seem all the more horrible.) No age is given, but he was a sergeant, so not a very young person likely. Your Albert James would have been 26.
No next of kin information is shown, either, which could be consistent with your Albert James if he wasn't married and his parents were deceased.
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Here's another marriage with father John Sydenham Eyre to narrow down his death.
*Fanny Evelyn Eyre age 20 marriage 29 Sept 1906 father deceased.
Groom Henry Robert Groves 30.
That couple are together in 1911 in Poplar.
* baptism 28 May 1886.
Interestingly one of the witnesses is Albert Hopkins who I think was a witness on the other marriage we found.
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Oh my gosh Janey you seem to be spot on with this army record. Thank you so much for that.I had heard from one of my cousins that Albert (known as James) had died in the war but we assumed it was WW2 I agree that war is such a waste of good honest people who believed they were doing the best for their country!!!
I have seen the marriage record for Fanny Eyre and have uploaded the details to my tree.Could I ask Milliepede where you saw the image as I haven't seen the record that shows the witness's. I think that Arthur Hopkins was a relation but haven't had a chance to investigate this yet.
Once again a very big thank you for all of your help.
Chris
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It is OK Milliepede I have found the marriage record and the other witness was Eliza Isabella Spillman, haven't a clue who she is.....but I will have a good look.
Chris
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Right you are :)
There's an Eliza Isabella Spillman born Poplar 1885.
Parents Charles and Charlotte.
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Yes I have just found her probably the right one as my family are from that area.
Chris
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Just for info, Eliza was with parents Charles and Charlotte in 1901 and 1911, married Albert C Holman in 1931, and died in 1871 in Waltham Forest. I had wondered whether she might be a fellow pupil in the industrial school, but apparently not.
The parents were Charles Spillman and Charlotte Short, so no apparent connection there.
It will be interesting to see what the school records say for the two girls!
I wondered also whether something like a house fire might account for the lack of death records for the parents -- if bodies were not technically identifiable, for instance. But I think there would have been an inquest and an identification made some way.
Is there still one child unaccounted for -- Maud Elizabeth? Witness at Lilian's marriage and then nothing?
And you had thought there were 3 children after 1891 -- we have Maud Elizabeth and Albert James, but there could be one more?
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Hi Janey thanks for the info.I do not think there is a connection with Eliza, she may have just been a friend as I haven't come across the names at all.
According to my cousin there was Florence,Maud,Daisy,Violet and Arthur.She did not know about Fanny I found her via searching the records. Florernce married which we thought was Frank Emery but the marriage records show a John Emery I think.
So it seems that Florernce and Daisy were infact two sisters not the same person as in the school record.
Chris
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This is what I have found out:
Fanny born 1886 married to Henry Groves
Lilian born 1889 married James william Hicks - my Nan and Grandad
Daisy Louisa born 1891 Married Arthur Walford
Florence born 1891 married John Emery
Albert James born 1892
Maud Elizabeth born 1894
Then there is Violet who I cannot find any trace of whatsoever but she did exist.
Chris
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According to my cousin there was Florence, Maud, Daisy, Violet and Arthur. She did not know about Fanny I found her via searching the records. Florernce married which we thought was Frank Emery but the marriage records show a John Emery I think.
So it seems that Florernce and Daisy were infact two sisters not the same person as in the school record.
The child in 1901 is called "Florence or Daisy". As mentioned in this thread, Daisy is a traditional nickname for Margaret. (The name Marguerite is the French word for a daisy.)
Florence Margaret, who is in the 1891 census, was 4 months old at the time of the census (birth reg Dec Q 1890 in St Olave -- must have been born in December). The Daisy Louisa Eyre birth was registered in June quarter 1891 in Camberwell. Even if she was born prematurely at the end of June 1891, that seems to be less than 7 months after Florence's birth. That really is cutting it a bit fine!
Do we know the father named on Daisy Louisa's marriage?
The Camberwell birth place is interesting though. I've been looking at stray Eyres in 1901 born 1891-1901. There are:
- Annie Eyre, c1894 Peckham (place of birth is a ditto), adopted daughter of a Roberts couple in Camberwell (who were not well off; he was a chimney sweeper -- but may have been childless; they have a nephew with them as well). (There was no formal adoption process, so her surname could not be "officially" changed.)
- William Eyre, c1894 Camberwell, Inmate, in household of foster mother under Camberwell Board of Guardians, Camberwell.
- Harry Eyre, c1895 London, Patient, Brighton Borough Sanitorium, Preston, Sussex
There were quite a few Eyre births in Camberwell in the 1890s, but none of the above.
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Probably not relevant but just to throw this in - there is a Violet Louise who marries a Richard Eyre in 1911 so she would have become Violet Eyre.
It is confusing with all these girls names two apiece!
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I think you can really rule out Daisy Louisa Eyre 1891 Camberwell now.
1891 census in Camberwell
(she was born just before the census and registered early in the June quarter, it seems)
James W Eyre c1857 Manchester
Louisa Eyre c1864 London
Mary Eyre c1890 Peckham
Daisy Eyre, under 1 month, Peckham
1901 census, same household is in Camberwell.
Not your Daisy!
So the findings now are:
Fanny born 1886 married to Henry Groves
Lilian born 1889 married James william Hicks - my Nan and Grandad
Florence born 1891 married John Emery
Albert James born 1892 (possibly died 1918 in WWI)
Maud Elizabeth born 1894
Fanny is likely Frances Maud born in 1888 in St Olave, I would think.
So I wonder whether she isn't actually the Frances Maud Eyre who married in 1907 in Southwark, to Charles Daniel Hill or ... well, it's hard to tell; the list at FreeBMD shows three women and one man.
-- oops, sorry, the marriage is confirmed by the name of the father stated on the certificate, given earlier in the thread:
Fanny Evelyn Eyre age 20 marriage 29 Sept 1906 father deceased.
Groom Henry Robert Groves 30.
Maud Elizabeth was born in St Olave as was Florence Margaret so that seems reasonable -- but note that other Eyres were born there during the 1890s who were not of this family.
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Yes I agree with Janey on ruling out Daisy Louisa.
Florence Margaret born St Olave Dec 1890 is your Daisy one of the girls at the school in 1901.
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No luck with the elusive Violet.
The other 5 are pretty evenly spaced so maybe she was the youngest. Then again they did pop them out with regularity in those days.
Baptisms found (and for me to get a handle on the names again!) are
Fanny Evelyn 28 May 1886
Lillian Edith 11 Jun 1889
Florence Margaret aka Daisy 6 January 1891
Albert James 17 Jun 1892
Maud Elizabeth 11 May 1894
Any other marriages we could find to help us?
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I am sorry but there was infact two girls one was Florence and one was Diasy,(I double checked with my cousin) could they have been twins and Daisy was not there when the census was done.....I honestly can't get my head round that one.
There was definately a Violet as well.I was wondering if Fanny was known as Violet as my cousin did not know about her???? or even Daisy???
Chris
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Maybe Albert was known as Violet (sorry Albert) :D
None of the births or baptisms found so far have been for twins.
Anything else known about Violet? Presume she grew up and did she marry have a family?
Unless she and Daisy were squeezed in between the other births - in which case I think we would have found baptisms at least - then they must have been born after Maud in 1894 and before 1906 when we know father is deceased :-\
It's a head scratcher alright!
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I have just had another thought.........Could it be that John died and good old Fanny married again? I have had a quick look but haven't found anything yet.
I hate to admit it but the family tree has been like this all the way through and there are other questions I was going to ask at a later date, but on reflection I want to carry on being a member of this forum LOL
Chris
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My Dad used to refer to Aunt Vi but I am not sure if she married or when she died.
Chris
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Could she be Albert's wife?
That would make her "Auntie Vi"
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Unlikely but could she possibly have been born to one or other of the parents before they married but brought up as a proper sister.
Impossible for you to answer I know but fitting her age in with the rest, she was younger she was older, would be super ;D
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Hi Millipede I have sent my cousin a message and asked her if she knew what pecking order they came in, hopefully she can come back to me with something. I have looked on the marriage records but haven't been able to find Fanny marrying anyone else.
I do not think that Albert married.
Chris