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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: Lizzy Drippin on Saturday 26 October 13 18:43 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me with this? My great great grandmother Hannah Hall lived in Weedon Bec and in 1865 she married Thomas Butler, who was a soldier in the 83rd regiment of foot ( I believe he could have been Irish) she had two children. On the 1871 census she is living with her parents and I can find no sign of Thomas Butler. In 1872 she marries again, using her maiden name and stating she is a spinster. This time she marries at the parish church, her first marriage was at the register office. This time she marries Edward Birch, also a soldier. Any ideas anyone?
Thanks Lizzy Drippin.
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Hello Lizzy
Do you have the marriage cert for Hannah's marriage to Thomas Butler? Have found the 1871 census and she is a Hannah Butler 26, but has 3 children, Thomas, Mary A and John. I have checked her place of birth and it says - Kingston on Tharney. Does that mean anything to you?
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Hi.
So the 1st marriage was at Daventry Register Office? and the 2nd at Northampton
St.Sepulchres.
On the 1871 census the last child is named as John R Hall aged 2, whilst the other
children are named as Butler.
On freebmd both of the last 2 children are born in the Mar Qtr as Mary Ann Butler
and John Richard Hall.
Sandy
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Looking at the 1881 cenus for Burton on Trent
RG11-2762, Folio 48, Page 10, Sch 36, 9, Barn Yd
The household is Edward a Labourer, 40, Dublin, Hannah 35, Kingston, Surrey
Thomas, 14, Labourer, Mary Ann, 12, Scholar, Henry, 9, Scholar, all Weedon,
Richard, Wife's Father, Wid, 72, Shoemaker, John Hall, Grandson, 12, Scholar.
Therefore is John the son of one of Hannah's siblings.
Sandy
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Hi, I am assuming That John is Hannah's brother's child, but I am not sure. Mary Ann Butler was my great grandmother. Hannah was born in Kingston upon Thames. They did move to Burton on Trent. I assume after Edward Birch left the army.
When I saw that she married Thomas Butler at the register office I though maybe he was catholic, but now I wonder if he was already married, which would account for her being a spinster on the second certificate. I have not been able to find Edward on a census either.
lizzy.
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Hi Lizzy.
Are you able to say what the 2nd marriage certificate to Edward Birch says
then please so we may find some other clues.
I don't quite get the reason for the 2nd marriage Hannah noting herself as a Spinster
as she may not have declared her 1st husband.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy, I couldn't make the name of the church out until you told me, so I suppose you know the area. Do you know how near to Weedon Bec it is? She was married on the 2nd of November 1872, she is 27 and a spinster. Both her and Edwin are living at what looks like Silvin street, her father is Richard Hall shoemaker and her brother Joseph is a witness Ann I can't read the second name is the other witness. Not much help really.
Lizzy
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Morning Lizzy.
I will take a look at it next week if no one does it sooner.
It would have more than likely been Silver Street.
Weedon is near Daventry which is about 10 miles from Npton.
Here is a link to a Northamptonshire map showing you.
http://www.wmcarey.edu/carey/maps/northants1787-2.jpg it is near
the word Warwick on the left hand side.
Just click on the Map and it will en-large it.
Sandy
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Good morning Sandy, thank you for your help. The reason I asked how near the church was to Weedon Bec is, If Thomas Butler had taken off and she just decided to marry again, would people have known that she was already married.
Thanks again Lizzy.
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Hi Lizzy.
As Hannah moved to Northampton which was so much bigger than Weedon obviously
her neighbours may not have known she was previously married.
Folk often said they were married when they clearly were not, but in Hannah's case she did
marry Edward/Edwin as you already know.
Have you looked in the papers to see whether Thomas was ever in trouble.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy, I've only looked on Find My Past, but I can't see anything.
Lizzy.
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Hi Lizzie.
The marriage details are as below.
Northampton St. Sepulchre's P.C. After Banns
Pg. 81, No. 162
November 2nd 1872
Edward Birch, 32, Bachelor, Soldier, Silver Street, father Edward, Labourer
Hannah Hall, 27, Spinster, Servant, Silver Street, father Richard, Shoemaker
Both signed their marks.
Witnesses: Joseph Hall and Ann Quelch who both signed their marks.
Sandy
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I can not obviously see the earlier marriage but I have found the children
baptisms at Weedon Bec.
Weedon Bec P.C.
Pg. 103, No. 824
July 29th 1866
Thomas Joseph to Thomas and Hannah Butler, Lower Weedon, Private 83rd Regt.
Sandy
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Weedon Bec P.C.
Pg. 117, No. 934
Feby 7th 1869
Mary Ann to Thomas and Hannah Butler, Lower Weedon, Labourer
Sandy
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Weedon Bec P.C.
Pg. 118, No. 940
Mar 28th 1869
John Richard to John and Sarah Hall, Lower Weedon, Shoemaker
This is more than likely the child with the family on the 1871 Census.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy, Well thank you for all that. John Hall was a witness to Hannah's marriage to Thomas Butler.
I assume everything appeared above board how odd.
Lizzy.
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Hi Lizzy.
Not sure if you know of the book on line.
It mentions them being stationed at Weedon on page 75.
You can use the slider bar on the bottom of the page to get there quickly.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wng/
Sandy
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Good morning Sandy, thank you for that. I'm assuming Thomas must have left the army just after Mary Ann was born, because on her birth certificate he's a Chelsea pensioner, but her baptism you sent me he's a labourer.
Thanks again Lizzy.
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Good morning
So excited to see all the information on Thomas Butler and Hannah Hall I am at the very beginning of my search, and a complete novice, Thomas Joseph Butler born in Weedon in 1866 was my Grandfather and Mary Anne appears to be his Sister Thanks to your info I have quickly been able to fill in a few gaps regarding Thomas and Hannah. Any assistance you can give me would be much appreciated.
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Hi butlersearch.
Welcome to Rootschat. :)
Glad to see that you have found information relating to your relatives here.
Also good to note information by Rootschatters so all can benefit
as you have now found it.
I bet Lizzy will be pleased to have contact with another rellie. :)
I wondered if you could say what kind of information you need.
Sandy
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Hi again butlersearch.
I thought I would confirm for you Mary Ann's lineage where I can.
On the 1881 census the family are in Burton upon Trent as noted previously
with the surname of the step-father BIRCH.
Then in 1888 Mary Ann married Thomas Lakin in the Jun Qtr R.D. Burton upon Trent
and can be on Freebmd.
The family is on the 1891 census RG12-2202 Folio 5 Page 3 Burton upon Trent
Thomas Lakin, 24, Mary Ann, 23, Fanny Eliz: 2, Henry 6 mo.
Also with them is Thomas's father William, a Widr, 55, and a brother William, 16
Sandy
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Sadly Mary Ann dies in the Mar Qtr R.D. Burton upon Trent aged just 25.
On the 1901 Census RG13-2645 Folio148 Page 20 Horninglow
Thomas and the family are with his brother-in-law, sister and daughter
James Goodhead, 46, Annie, 22, Olive E, 5 mo,
Thomas Lakin, Wdr, 34, Fanny, 12, Henry, 10, Thomas, 7.
Sandy
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There is a possible death for Thomas Lakin on freebmd
Sep Qtr 1909, R.D. Burton agd 43.
I can see 2 of the children with the Aunt after that date.
Fanny Elizabeth marries in the Dec Qtr 1907 R.D. Burton to William Staley.
This web site maybe of help to you.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wop/
Sandy
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Good morning Sandy, Thank you for that, Mary Ann's child Henry is my grandfather. Mary died from childbirth problems after having Thomas. Both Henry and Thomas moved to Yorkshire on the 1911 census, presumably to work in the coal mines. I have been unable to find Fanny though. My grandfather joined the army in 1914 and he names his sister next of kin, under the name fanny Lakin.
Lizzy.
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Morning Lizzy.
I am going to link butlersearch's other topic here in case you can assist her also.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wp4/
Sandy
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Thank you for the reply the information I am looking for is the marriage of
Thomas Joseph Butler b 1866 Weedon to Mary Field born Dublin 1872
I note that Thomas's mother remarried and they are on the census as Birch but as my fathers name was Butler I am assuming this was not an official change.
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Hi again, Thomas Joseph and Mary Ann Butler (my great grandmother) were brother and sister and they were called Butler. Their father was Thomas Butler I have Hannah Hall and Joseph's marriage certificate in 1865 He was a soldier in the 83rd Regiment of foot, which I understand is an Irish regiment, so he could also be Irish. In 1872 Hannah marries again Edward Birch, but she calls herself Hall and states she is a spinster. How could she do this? Edward is also Irish and a soldier. They then have a son Henry Richard in 1873.
I have looked for a marriage for Thomas Joseph, but no luck and I can't find them after the 1901 census, either.
Lizzy
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Hi Lizzy
I am a bit confused now you say you have a marriage certificate for Hannah and Joseph I thought he was Thomas Joseph Butler .
We are going to our local history centre tomorrow which has lots of resources and lots of kind people willing to help with searches, will let you know how we get on.
Regards
Clive Butler
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Hi Lizzy
Just to let you about our search yesterday not a lot to report still unable to trace the Butler/ Field marriage our guess is that it took place in Ireland which I am told is difficult to research.
I did however find a military history sheet for Thomas Butler (Mary Anne's brother) he served from 1888 to 1892 unfortunately he went on trial and was imprisoned for theft (oh dear) and was discharged from the army ! His next of kin is shown as Hannah living in Burton on Trent at the address that appears on the 1881 census. I hope I am not besmirching him but it does look like our Thomas. My problem now is that his first child was born in 1893 and I am wondering why he is showing his mother as next of kin . Surely not another Thomas Butler to leave a family. I wonder if this is the way for Thomas Butler senior trying to trace his military record.
Regards
Clive Butler
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Hi Lizzy
Regarding my last reply I got completely muddled with my dates so realise it does all tie up, in fact in narrows down my search for the marriage.
This research is hard work and dates get very confusing.
Regards
Clive Butler
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Hi Lizzy,
Have been doing some more research on Thomas Butler and now have copies of his discharge sent by the Royal Ulster Rifle Museum.
He joined the 83rd regiment from Liverpool and served in India and was medically discharged after 9 years. If I am reading it right he was last at the Richmond Barracks in Dublin in 1865.
His birth is shown as Ballybuck County Mayo he is shown as being 21 in 1856 when he enlisted.
I now need to find his birth and establish how he ended up in Northamptonshire and where he disappeared to.
The younger Thomas butler marriage to Mary Field I still cannot find.
Regards
Clive Butler
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Hi
Just thought I would try once more to see if anyone can help me trace this missing marriage
Thomas Joseph Butler Born Weeden Northants in 1866 to Mary Field born Dublin 1872
Thank you
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Hello,
Did you ever check the Dublin South marriage See reply #3 here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673116.0;topicseen
I know it says Henry Butler and they may not have married each other but in the absence of anything else, it could be worth a try.
Heywood
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Good morning
Thank you for your reply I have not checked that marriage how would I do that.
I know that Thomas Butler was discharged from the army in Northamptonshire in 1892 and the first child Elizabeth was born in 1893 and she and her siblings were all born in Burton on Trent . I have Thomas on the 1881 census and 1901 but not yet managed to locate them on the 1891 maybe because Thomas was in the Army and Mary Field was still in Ireland. Thomas father also Thomas was born c 1835 in County Mayo so there is an Ireland connection on his side of the family.
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Hello again,
You can obtain a copy here http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx
If you do so make sure to order a photocopy at 4 euros.
There will be others on the same page so of course, it may not be them but they do have as son Henry, so the name may have some relevance.
Best wishes
Heywood
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Hi
I am still unable to confirm a marriage for Thomas Butler and Mary Filed , but have just noticed that I do not have all their children On the 1911 census it states 8 children 5 living, it took me a while to find this as Mary Butler states here birth place as Burton on Trent and not Ireland,
I have these children
Elizabeth 1893
Thomas 1896
Henry 1900
George 1906
Richard 1904
Frederick 1912
Isabella 1910
I know that Isabella and Henry died as infants so who am I missing ?
Many thanks
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Good morning
I have been working on the butler family for some time but lots still remain a mystery to me.
Thomas Joseph Butler b weedon northants 1866 m Mary Field born Dublin 1872 , I estimate the marriage to be around 1893 but unable to find.
Thomas Butler (his father) b county mayo 1835 m Hannah Hall 1865 , i have this certificate, she marries again in 1872 as a spinster.
All my Thomas butler info has been obtained from army records, he surfaces again , from military document in 1892 claiming a retrospective pension his residence is shown as Bradford, Yorks.
So i have no idea of where he was from the time when his marriage failed and 1892 when claiming a pension.
Was he already married ?
Did he marry again ?
Any input would be welcome, many thanks
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Hello again,
Do you mean that Thomas Butler snr was in Bradford in 1892?
When was he discharged from the Army?
Heywood
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Hi
Yes in January 1892 on the military documents I have for claiming pension he states his present residence to be Moody Street Bradford Yorks.
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Have you found him in any census-1891 onwards?
Have you found a death?
Is there a number in Moody Street or any reference to family?
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Hi
No I have not any concrete evidence on any census a couple of possible in Liverpool where he enlisted, but Liverpool, irish and the surname Butler throws up many options , the death I also cannot find.
Moody Street or indeed Bradford doesn't seem to appear anywhere else.
Thank you
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Sorry to ask, is it definitely the same person?
I have tried searching Moody Street in 1891 and 1901 but nothing, nor any suitable Thomas Butler.
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Hi
Yes I had that problem I wonder if it was just a 'passing through residence' as on the military document he is asked if anyone from his regiment can vouch for him and their address is shown as 61 Moody street his name looks like Samson Trotman , I am wondering if they are just boarding houses.
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Hi
Still searching for above marriage in 1892/1893 Just come across a marriage in West Brom
in 1892 of Thomas Butler to Mary a Thomas its the right area and year , is it likely this could be
a mistake on the entry and it should read Mary a Field or am I clutching at straws !!!
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Hello again,
Is the younger one, Thomas Joseph and was he in the army in 1891? If so, where?
Heywood
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Hi yes he was in the army have in al
dershot and dublin and discharged in 1892 with no pension
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Hi
I have at last managed to find the marriage of Thomas Butler and Mary Field in Ireland , thanks to the new records on Line. Do I need to send for the certificate will it contain any more info than in the church register.
Many thanks
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What great news!
May we ask where it is?
Heywood
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Hi
It was suggested to me some time ago that I should check a Henry Butler marriage , but funds didn't
allow me to follow that up , and I foolishly thought , no that cannot be right, How wrong I was.
In the new catholic church records I have found this.
St Andrews church Dublin January 1893
Henry Butler to Mary Field, his parents are shown as Edward and possible Ann , which is probably short for Hannah and Edward is his stepfather.
The crucial piece of eividence is his parents address Wetmore Road Burton on Trent which is an address I have the family at.
It was like winning the lottery , I am now working on Mary's parents to see what I can find.
Will the marriage certificate give me any more information ?
A lesson learnt by me follow every lead given !
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:)
I asked because I had suggested it to you a couple of times.
I am really glad that you eventually were able to confirm.
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Thank you so much I would not not have looked at Henry if you had not suggested it so very grateful
regards
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butlersearch were you not viewing the original record.?
I have seen it and it states the info you noted.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Yes it was the parish register entry I have seen, I am assuming the marriage certificate would not offer any more info.
Regards
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That's a good clear register ;)
You should get his occupation and their fathers' occupations on a civil marriage certificate.
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Hi butlersearch.
As you say the marriage took place in the Roman Catholic Church and yourself and I looked at the original certificate. :) No different than looking at a marriage certificate in the Parish Records and getting a photo-copy (price different depending on where copy is from i.e. Library or Record Office) or getting a copy of it from the G.R.O at £9.25 for English records.
Sandy
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Sandy,
The civil record should have male occupations which this religious certificate doesn't. A Photocopy from the civil register would be 4 euros - if it hasn't changed. :)
Heywood
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Sorry Heywood. I stand corrected. Thanks.
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Thank you both I will order a photocopy just to see occupations I think.
Many thanks