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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: jesika jae on Friday 01 November 13 19:42 GMT (UK)
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On January 5 1916, James KELLY married Nellie RICHARDSON in the Mansfield Registry Office.
He was 20, a miner serving as a Private in the Notts & Derby/Sherwood Foresters Regiment, number 15846.
Home address 3 Bells Yard, Westgate, Mansfield recorded on the marriage certificate.
He died age 32, the death was registered in Pontefract, Yorkshire, in February 1927.
His father, also James Kelly, a miner, was serving in the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. (Same home address)
When and where was my granddad born?
Who was his mother?
Where was she from?
Did he have any siblings?
Who were they?
Who else lived in that house?
Where was James senior from?
Nellie was 19, born in Mansfield in 1896.
Her parents were Bertha and Thomas Arthur Richardson.
Siblings, Elizabeth Ann, Gladys, Arthur and Joyce.
Home address 57 Moor Street, Mansfield
Their children were James Arthur, Mary Teresa and Doreen Winifred.
My apologies in advance if this request is in the wrong place, this is my first posting.
I really hope someone can provide the missing link which will allow me to positively identify my granddad, I know so much and yet he remains a mystery.
Many thanks to any who read this
jj
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Did he have a middle name?
Possible 1901
77 Duchess Street, Bulwell
James Kelly 30 married, coàl miner hewer bn Shropshire Wellington
Elizabeth 29 bn Nottingham
Margaret A 6 bn Not.
James W 5 bn Not.
Ellen 1 bn Not.
We cant do 1911 look ups, sorry.
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Many thanks, I'll investigate this lead.
We thought he had a middle name but his marriage & death certificates only say James.
Thank you again for what you have done for us, it's very kind
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There is a possible marriage, which ties in with the census we cannot mention, Mar 1894 Basford 7b/310 James Kelly and Elizabeth Cutts.
A birth, which ties with son James- being 20 on his marriage, Sep 1896 Mansfield 7b/64 James Kelly
There is a medal card for the James with the number you quote. He also had another number 13010 when he was with the Machine Gun corps- a sergeant.
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Thank you so much. A "nerdy" neighbour followed your clever detective work into the National Achives.
So far there is a very good fit, we'll try to get the records in the very near future. Close examination of his medals confirm Pte & SJT (SGT) J Kelly, no second initial, but I understand that names & ages were a bit "flexible" during WW1.
It's possible he might also have had a third medal, something else to investigate.
Many, many thanks for your wonderful work, it's greatly appreciated.
j
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Victory Medal, British Medal, Star.
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Thank you again.
We have the 1914-15 Star and the Allied Victory medal. The third is lost but I believe can be replaced.
j
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lizdb and especially Larkspur, have put a tremendous amount of time and effort into finding James Kelly son of James Kelly father of James Kelly. I don't have sufficient words to express my thanks, thank you seems inadequate, but it's all I have.
Larkspur has found a compelling great granddad, but is he MY great granddad?
It may even be possible to find him through grandmother's family, someone may know about the handsome young soldier who married the gorgeous red head!
Larkspur has discovered he was also a serjeant (their spelling) in the Machine Gun Corps and has sent links.
His army/war details may be among those lost in WW2, but his medal card remains.
It is, of course, possible that I'm looking in the wrong county. He was in Notts & Derby Regiment, his father in King's Own YORKSHIRE Light Infantry, died in Yorkshire. Was great granddad a Yorkie or just "filling in" after the horrible losses of the first 2 years?
2 of his children were Yorkies, only the eldest born in Mansfield.
The search continues, with grateful thanks to lizdb & Larkspur and all who have read this posting.
j
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;) you are welcome.
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I still do not know which James Kelly was my granddad: his date and place of birth, and his mother's name remain elusive.
I now have his medal card which doesn't give a lot of information, but may be a step forward.
He entered the "Theatre of War" 5 May 1915 as a private in the Notts & Derby Regiment, married 5 Jan 1916 still a private, but became a sergeant in the Machine gun Corps some time after marriage.
Gas had been used as a weapon of war during this period, I have to wonder if this contributed to his death from TB in 1927. Opinions are divided among researchers about this.
jj
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I now know he was in western Europe, France/Belgium when he entered the theatre of war in May 1915. It doesn't really help me decide which of so many men of the same name is MY James Kelly, but every clue is valuable
j
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Found this one...
James Kelly
Birth Place:
Worksop, Notts
Residence:
Kensington, Liverpool
Death Date:
4 May 1915
Death Location:
France & Flanders
Enlistment Location:
Liverpool
Rank:
Private
His Army records do exist, his effects were sent to his father James Davenport Kelly 74 Saxony Rd Liverpool. This is the Worksop James, so rules him out of the possibles. He died of a head wound.
Regiment:
King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Battalion:
10th Battalion
Number:
3330
Type of Casualty:
Died of wounds
Theatre of War:
Western European Theatre
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Thank you for this. A huge sorrow for his family, but I am here so he was definitely not MY James Kelly. I suppose this is detective work, finding clues and eliminating as I/we go along. His secret will be revealed one day. I don't want to know about his dreadful experiences, where he was, just WHO he was, James Kelly MY James Kelly.
Many thanks,
j
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I have asked for this thread to be moved to Armed Forces WW1 to see if anyone there can add anything to the great work already done here.
Milly (Armed Forces Moderator)
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Thank you very much, Millymcb, for moving my search for granddad to the WW1 board.
My thanks also to those who have helped before, especially Larkspur (Nottinghamshire) and Cashew on this board.
I know about his marriage, his death, his children, his father, but not his mother and date/place of birth.
There are strong links with Nottinghamshire (where he lived and married), Derbyshire (where grandmother was born and his regiment, Notts & Derby) and Yorkshire (where he died & 2 children were born).
Any clue which would help in my search for this missing information will be received with grateful thanks.
I don't want to know where he went, what he saw, what horrors he faced, I just want to be able to say, "Happy birthday, granddad."
j
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I have contacted the Sherwood Foresters' museum in Nottingham and although I still don't know my granddad's date of birth, I do know more about him
He was in the 1st Battalion, Notts & Derby Regiment, and landed in France 3 May 1915
He returned to England 26 September 1915 in 3rd Battalion. Was he wounded? No evidence so far. Was it for training purposes? He appears to have remained in England for several months, at least until his marriage in January 1916.
He was in the Machine Gun Corps 21 February 1916 and promoted to sergeant. Was he then sent back to France/Belgium? I doubt he would have been promoted only to stay at home.
I am waiting for possible clues about my great granddad from the KOYLI museum in Doncaster. I have only his name, home address in January 1916, rank and regiment, but his age could well help them find him - assuming he didn't deduct a few years! If there is information about him and his wife was next of kin, the mystery of my granddad might finally be solved.
Both men were miners, I think a protected occupation, perhaps they volunteered to join the army, but I don't understand why Great Granddad was in KOYLI and not Notts & Derby unless casualties were so great and he was simply sent where needed.
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As he was in France before 31 Dec 1915 then he would have been entitled to the 1914/15 Star.
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Thank you. We have his "Pip, Squeak & Wilfred" medals. We thought the search would be so easy when we saw the medals and the numbers. How wrong we were...
Many thanks
j
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Do you have medals for both father and son? I can't see if/where you posted the details off the rim of medals (name rank, regt, number etc). Are they for Notts & Derby or Machine Gun Corps?
Do the medals match the marriage info you gave? And is this definitely the right marriage?
On January 5 1916, James KELLY married Nellie RICHARDSON in the Mansfield Registry Office.
He was 20, a miner serving as a Private in the Notts & Derby/Sherwood Foresters Regiment, number 15846
And what about James Snr - do you have his medals too?
Just checking in case there is anything we have missed
Milly
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Thank you, Milly.
Pte J Kelly, Notts & Derby R 15846 1st and 3rd Battalions was awarded the 1914-15 Star.
The Victory medal was awarded to Sjt J Kelly, MGC 13010 after his transfer and promotion 21 Feb 1916
We had to replace the missing British War medal.
Verified through his medal card and the limited records at the Notts & Derby Museum, who provided dates of his movements between May 1915 and February 1916. These dates tally with the wedding and the birth of their son and the marriage witnesses, grandmother's father & sister.
So far there is little knowledge of James snr, but hopefully there will be more information from the KOYLI museum. They have his home address, rank and regiment (as of Jan 5 1916) and former occupation to work from. He would have been older than many of his fellow soldiers, his son was 20 at marriage. If any details exist, such as his date or place of birth or preferably his wife's name, it should be possible to determine which James Kelly of many is mine.
I only want his date and place of birth and his mother's name, I have no desire to know exactly where he went and what he experienced.
I offer thanks to all who have shown interest and offered help in this frustrating search.
j
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An update on my search for Granddad Kelly, the "motherless" James Jr.
A very clever researcher was looking for his wife's grandmother and fortunately, they have a lot of family history documented. Jeff discovered that his wife's gran was my granddad's sister! I had an auntie Catherine ;D.
More skillful detective work revealed quite a lot about GREAT granddad, James Sr. Like his son, he survived WW1, but unlike his short lived child, died age 76 in Nottingham. There is a possibility he remarried at some stage and had a child, Margaret.
We await 2 certificates which may or not, reveal the identity of my great gran.
Many thanks to all who helped before and especially to Jeff for contacting me after his brilliant work
j
250215
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Granddad James Kelly update
During his brilliant detective work, Jeff in Melbourne, seeking his wife's grandmother, Catherine, found my search for granddad James Kelly.
James & Catherine were siblings, their home addresses at marriage, only 3 months apart, and their father's name & occupation confirm this.
Jeff discovered that James Kelly Sr (gt granddad) had married Ellen Slattery (gt grandmother) in 1897 in Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire. Their children soon followed.
Catherine was born in Mexboro, Yorkshire 1898
Thomas was born in Whitwick, Leicestershire in 1900
Margaret was born in Whitwick in 1908
Winifred Cecelia was born in 1911 in Mansfield Nottinghamshire
Donald Thomas was born in 1914 Mansfield
William was born in 1918 in Mansfield.
According to the 1901 census, when the family was living in Glass Houghton, Yorkshire, James was born in 1897 in Whitwick. This is the earliest reference to him. I can find no record of his birth in any of the websites I am able to access. GRO anticipate up to 6 weeks turn around for confirmation or further frustration!
I think I now know both his parents and his year of birth, 2 years younger than stated on his marriage & death certificates, but still not his date of birth. Perhaps he added a couple of years to go to war, he has the 3 WW1 medals. Or maybe there is another mysterious mystery waiting to unfold.
As ever, my grateful thanks to those who have contributed to my knowledge, especially Jeff.
j
200415
So near and still so far away
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"According to the 1901 census, when the family was living in Glass Houghton, Yorkshire, James was born in 1897 in Whitwick"
His Parents married 1897, could James have been born before this event? His surname would then not be Kelly.
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Good afternoon, Larkspur. I'd thought of that. My distant family ladies had a tendancy towards brief pregancies. Must have been the mining village air!!! LOL
I cannot find any trace of his birth and strangely I can't find the family in 1911 census either. Ellen would have pregnant with Catherine and I don't think out of country family holidays existed for ordinary people, but gt gt granddad, John was from County Mayo.
I doubt they failed to register him, it was compulsory after 1875 and there was a hefty £2 fine. A young miner wouldn't have had that much spare money.
The mystery continues to confound.
But many thanks for the suggestion.
j
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One year ago, Granddad Kelly's birth remained a mysterious mystery, indeed until less than one WEEK ago. Australian Jeff had uncovered many family members, but Granddad's birth date eluded us. We knew he was supposed to have been born 1896/7 in Whitwick, Leicestershire if the 1901 census was correct, but there was no record of a birth.
I decided to approach the Leicestershire forum and clever researchers uncovered Arthur Slattery born April, May or June 1896 to Ellen Slattery. Baby Arthur then "disappeared". Ellen had a 7 year old brother Arthur when baby Arthur was born.
James Kelly was the son of James Kelly & Ellen Slattery of Whitwick. Ellen Slattery is an unusual name. James Kelly sadly not!
I have ordered birth certificates for Ellen & baby Arthur in the hope that I shall have at last a date for my Granddad's birth, believing that Arthur Slattery became James Kelly Jr when Ellen & James Sr married March 8 1897.
I still cannot find any record of the family in the 1911 census but know that they were in Mansfield in Nov 1911 when another baby was born.
As ever, I give thanks to all who have helped so much in the search for my Granddad. If I ever have another Granddad, I want one with a very uncommon name which has not been recycled through generations!
jj 090416
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Solved, the mystery of my elusive granddad, by the Leicestershire forum! (James Kelly 189? 1927)
It is impossible for me to thank individually each person who has contributed to finding James Kelly 1896-1927.
If you read this, you know who you are and that I am deeply indebted to you.
The major breakthrough came when Australian Jeff was searching for his wife's grandmother, Catherine Kelly 1898. She was confirmed as the sister of James Kelly in the 1901 census which also revealed the first mention of a place and approximate birth year for James.
James remained elusive. I accepted that he was almost certainly illegitimate, maybe even born to another family member, “adopted” by James Kelly (1874) & Ellen Slattery as they were getting married and then known as James Kelly.
Baby Arthur was born to Ellen Slattery, May 22 1896 and Willsy (Leicestershire forum) found his baptism record in Holy Cross RC church, Whitwick, 26 July 1896. She also found baptism records for James & Ellen's other children, Catherine, born in Mexborough, Francis who I assume died as I have no knowledge of this baby, and Thomas.
The evidence is compelling, the only caveat being the spelling of Ellen's name. In all the records I have found, she is Ellen but in 3 of her children's baptism records she is Helen.
I am unclear about RC baptisms but John Kelly & Ellen Wall were born in County Mayo in 1839 & 1841, marrying in Staffordshire 20 years later which may explain that.
I offer my thanks those who thought sideways & found baby Arthur Slattery & to Willsy who found baptism records.
Many, many thanks to all who have made it possible for me
On May 22 2016, I'll be able, for the first time, to celebrate Granddad Kelly's birthday.
180416
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I now have the birth certificate of Arthur Slattery who became James Kelly, my grandfather. I suppose it's no real surprise that he was born in the Union Workhouse, Ashby de la Zouch to the unmarried Ellen, but it was still very sad to read about his place of birth. There are a few little details I'd like to search out, but basically I am happy with what I have found, with the support of so many unselfish people who have given freely of their time & knowledge.
Thanks you to you all.
jj 300416
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It should have been easy.
The medals gave me all the information I needed to start my search.
James Kelly Private 15846 Notts & Derby Reg.
James Kelly Sergeant 13010 Machine Gun Corps.
He married Nellie Richardson in Mansfield Register Office, January 5 1916.
He died from TB, February 8 1927. Address 12 Council Houses, South Hiendley.
He was buried in Felkirk Church grave yard, a mile from where I spent my first 21 years, and I didn't know.
Grandmother never spoke about him. No one ever asked. A tacitly off limits subject.
In my research I found about 1700 potential James Kellys fitting his WWI record, marriage & death. This was an impossible task, so difficult a genealogist friend declined to help! Then a friend told me about the website that helped her find her grannie. Astonishingly, Jeff in Australia was searching the same website for his wife's grandma at the same time as I was looking for my granddad.
At her marriage, March 27 1916, Catherine Kelly's address, 3 Bells Yard, Mansfield, was the same as James' when he married Nellie. Their fathers had the same details, James Kelly (b1875), miner, Private KOYLI Reg. No mother was mentioned. James & Catherine were apparently siblings.
Jeff found their mother's name, Ellen Slattery, born in Whitwick, Leicestershire, in 1874, through a census search. In 1901 James & Ellen with their 3 children were in Glass Houghton, Yorkshire.
James 4, born in Whitwick -1896/7.
Catherine 3, born in Mexborough, Yorkshire 1898.
Thomas 10 months, born in Whitwick, 1900.
There is no record of the birth of James Kelly (1896/7) despite there being a hefty £2 fine for not registering.
I returned to the website, the Leicestershire forum.
Still no James Kelly even though I now knew where & approximately when he was born.
I learned that Ellen had given birth to a baby boy, Arthur Slattery, in the Ashby de la Zouch Union Workhouse in 1896. There is no further record of this child. He did not grow up, did not marry, did not die. He simply disappeared. The evidence is compelling that Arthur Slattery became James Kelly after Ellen and James married on March 8 1897, in Whitwick Register Office.
I cannot be certain that James Kelly was Arthur's father, but what Jeff & I have learned strongly supports this. Ellen & James were the same age, lived in the same street, attended the same school, got married and in the 1901 census had a 4 year old son. Ellen's husband had raised the child and replaced his birth name, Arthur Slattery, with James Kelly, surely acknowledging paternity.
Mother told me her father's name was James Arthur, but on all General Register Office records he was James Kelly, excepting birth where he was registered as Arthur Slattery.
I have been told that after her husband died, grandmother and her 3 young children had to live in a caravan. I don't know for how long, but presumably they were evicted when James died.
Maybe this is why he was never spoken about.
Maybe this is why grandmother visited her daughter Teresa's grave & not that of her husband, despite them sharing the same plot.
These are things I'll never know, but today, May 22, I can say “Happy Birthday, Granddad” for the first time, 120 years after he was born.
Addendum:
Baby Arthur Slattery was baptised in the Holy Cross Roman Catholic Church, Whitwick, as were Catherine, Thomas and Francis, who was born in Whitwick in 1899 and died before the 1901 census.
Uncle Jim (James Arthur Kelly) had told his children that he was RC and had been excommunicated. I have been unable to find any record of RC baptism in Mansfield where he was born or for his sisters, Mary Teresa (1920 -1937) and Doreen Winifred (1924 – 2012) both born in South Hiendley.
John Kelly was born in Cacon, County Mayo in 1839, died Cannock, Staffs, January 1915 (Gt gt grandfather)
Ellen Wall, his wife, was born in Kiltimagh, County Mayo, in 1841. Died January 1912 in Lichfield, Staffs.
They married in Tamworth, Staffordshire, July 1859.
James Kelly, 9th of 10 children, was born in Whitwick 1875. Died Nottingham 1951. (Gt grandfather)
Ellen Slattery, his wife, was born in Whitwick, 1874, died Rotherham 1955.
Ellen Slattery's grandfather, John, was born in County Clare, 1820, her father Michael, born Staffordshire, 1870.
But the strangest part of this search was an eerie coincidence. Something which could not have been anticipated or planned given our limited knowledge 2 years ago. Mother joined her sister and father
May 22 2014,
the 118th anniversary of his birth.
requiescat in pace
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GRANDDAD
There are too many people to thank individually, but I am grateful for all you have done to help solve the mysterious mystery of my elusive grandfather. Many, many thanks
jj 220516