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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Essex => England => Essex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Rachel Williams on Saturday 11 January 14 08:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi all:
Hoping I can get a marriage Banns entry or a baptism record---
Here's what we know:
Born 1811 or 1814 Great Coggeshall---- the 1881 Census lists him as being born in Germany! No where else does this appear.
Marries Pheebe (Phoebe Harris) at some point????? she appears as wife to a John Harris in the 1841 census.
Marries Elizabeth Nichols in 1856 (This marriage is better substantiated but still lacks the banns)
Dies 08 Jan 1890 (in his bed--- nicely substantiated in the records)
So hoping an 18811-1814 Baptism record exists---names of parents
Also hoping marriage banns can be found for Pheebe (Phoebe) and Elizabeth in hopes that we can identify his parents.
He is buried in an unmarked grave in Coggeshall at St Peter's Plot G grave 90
Thanking everyone in advance...
Rachel in Canada
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From FreeBMD:
Marriages, December qtr 1856
Witham district (which includes the parish of Great Coggeshall) vol 4a, page 583
Harris, John
+ and on the same page +
Nichols, Elizabeth
If you were to buy this certificate, you would get both father's names and occupations. ;D
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Thanks so much--- I have that record and you are right--- but when building a family tree I am trying to be circumspect with the $$ I spend. I subscribe $$ monthly to Ancestry.ca so I am putting some money out and the freely available http://www.coggeshallmuseum.org.uk/familyresearchers1.htm has been a tremendous help to me. At any rate I know I have the correct Harris so I might have to cough it up for this one. He is my great great grandfather :)
Rachel
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Can't see anything on FreeReg or FamilySearch?!
Maybe you should try SEAX? (Essex Archives)
Try here: http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/EssexAncestors.aspx
(Needs a subscription!)
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I'll take a look :)
Rachel
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Hi Rachel
I've had a scratch around the Coggeshall registers and can confirm the following;
John Harris was buried in Coggeshall on 12th January 1890 aged 76.
His marriage to Elizabeth Nichols didn't take place at the Parish church in Coggeshall in 1856.
There are no marriage entries from 1830 to 1837 at Coggeshall for John Harris at the Parish church.
At least you can eliminate things and know that you've got to look elsewhere!
:)
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That is excellent! The details surrounding his death I have --- Elizabeth comes from Coggeshall so not having the marriage performed at St. Peter's is a surprise. If I can find the banns for both marriages I can hopefully ID the father on both and contrast/compare
For Elizabeth, the marriage appears in the Witham registrar so I need to see what churches were under its jurisdiction
Rachel
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So St. Nicolas in Witham seems the obvious choice. I believe John and Elizabeth were buried in consecrated sections at St. Peters in Coggeshall. A quick search reveals that their are records for the period in question but they are not as yet available on-line.
So next step seems to be contact with the St.Nicolas Parish directly
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If you've seen Witham on FreeBMD, then it refers to the Registration District.
The RD consisted of some 17 parishes - which can be seen here:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/witham.html
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hi Rachel
I,ve just looked at the parish register for st Nicholas in witham and there are only 2 marriage entries for dec 1856 1 on the 24 dec and one on the 25 dec neither for a john harris the register entries jump from 10 nov to 24 dec also mixed in there are marriages for all saints in this book as well .
regards
trevor
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Hi Rachel,
My earliest known ancestor is Joseph Harris who claims he was born in Little Coggeshall c1806.
I descend from his son Joseph bap 1835 Gt Coggeshall, this Joseph had a brother William who married Anne Nichols in 1858 at Coggeshall, the Nichols surname has me wondering if my Harris line might be linked to yours.
Regards.
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Thank you all---- the English Wales Free BMD has the following entry:
Name: John Harris
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1856
Registration District: Witham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume Number: 4a
Page Number: 583
Records on Page:
Name
Maria Everett
John Harris
Frederick Lawrance
Elizabeth Nichols
Not sure if that helps ---
Hi T MO--- we're a large family---it's possible we tie in at some point. I and others have traced the Harris part of our lineage back to John but no further at this point.Hopefully by breaking that 1811-1814 barrier we can find a point of commonality
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There's a John Harrison baptised April 10th 1814 in coggeshall? Parents John and Amelia.
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Oh interesting--- the date is certainly right--- and we all know names get muddled in Census data but Harrison vs. Harris seems a bit of a stretch albeit a small one
Thank you, NannyJ :)
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A couple of ancestry trees say the marriage of John Harris and Elizabeth Nicholls was at Witham Register Office on 2 Nov 1856. One of the trees (sdyer453) doesn't list John's father which is interesting because they list Elizabeth as their Great Great Grandmother. The other tree (spratcliffe) lists John's father as Samuel, but no mother is listed on the tree for him. I'm afraid the only way you will be able to confirm this is to purchase the certificate because there is no other way to obtain the information for Register Office marriages.
Interestingly, another ancestry tree lists John's parents as Samuel Harris and Amelia nee Windall with a marriage date of 4 Nov 1806 in Great Coggeshall. They don't though list a birth or baptism date for John, although they appear to be a direct descendant of John and Elizabeth living in Australia.
.
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Thank you so much. Yes--- it seems we're headed that way. Sdyder is my 3rd cousin and we are currently chatting almost daily with regards to the family tree. So really I am asking on her behalf as well. Our great grandparents were brother and sister :)
Rachel
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Does Sdyer have a copy of the marriage certificate or have they relied on the other ancestry trees? If not, the only way you will confirm John's father's name is to obtain a copy of the certificate. The other trees could have relied on third hand information too.
Although there are non-conformist chapels in the area, I haven't been able to find any sign of John in the various indexes suggesting if he was baptised, it was most likely Church of England even if not in Coggeshall, then in one of the surrounding parishes.
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Yes I have their grave locations and actually have photographs they are located in the consecrated areas... SDyer just came online via FB and I am pointing her here. The 1881 census lists John as being born in Germany sooooo the search may end up there
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Ok, not meaning to appear rude, but judging by the evasive response to the subject of the marriage certificate, I'm assuming neither of you have it? Can I suggest somebody purchases it to confirm Samuel's father's name. You won't be able to confirm anything without this.
Also, since he seems to state Coggeshall on all other census, I doubt very much he was born in Germany. As John would also appear to be an agricultural labourer, again I doubt very much the family had any connection with Germany. The marriage certificate should also confirm his father's occupation, if he too was an ag lab, he ISN'T likely to have ever been to Germany. The 1881 Census entry is most likely an error on the part of the enumerator or, as John was getting on in years, whoever gave the information provided it incorrectly.
So far I can see one child was baptised to Samuel and Amelia Harris in Coggeshall, Samuel baptised 26 Jun 1808 (born 14 June). Interestingly, Amelia was baptised as an adult in 1811 suggesting that the family may not have been averse to late baptisms which may explain the lack of them in Coggeshall at the expected times. In light of this, the marriage certificate is your most useful piece of proof as one of the witnesses may also be a relative.
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No offence taken at all --- I'll purchase the document :)
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Interestingly there is a baptism in Dec 1811 of an Elizabeth Harris widow aged 66 years, so the Harris family may have been non-conformist but the records for whichever chapel they used perhaps don't survive. Alternatively, Amelia and Elizabeth Harris may just not have been baptised as children or were unsure if they were baptised as children, rather than being non-conformist.
I've been doing some research for a friend in Essex in and around Debden and a couple of her direct ancestors' baptisms are missing, although the ancestor's brothers were baptised. In that situation, it looks like the females weren't baptised/christened but the male children were, then later on they starting attending the local parish churches. So it's possible that your Harris family could have been non-conformist but latterly started attending the Church of England parish churches. Before 1837 they would have had to marry in CofE anyway. I've some lines in London that varied between non-conformist and CofE for baptisms, depending on where they were living at the time so cross-over between the two isn't unusual.
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Possibly so--- I have a great grand aunt buried in the unconsecrated section of St Peters as well
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There are a large number of years between the baptisms of Samuel and Amelia Harris' children, nothing between 1808 and daughter Eliza's baptism 23 Jun 1816. There is also Emma Harris baptised to Samuel and Amelia on 13 Feb 1820. They are listed on both entries as being of Great Coggeshall and he's a fisherman. Seems a bit of a distance from the sea to be a fisherman, so perhaps they were living nearer some coastal waters in the intervening period? If the family had moved around a bit, John may not have known he was born elsewhere.
Interestingly Samuel himself appears to have been baptised late with brother Robert and sister Sarah:
Great Coggeshall
30 Jun 1816
Robert Harris (born 17 Sept 1795)
Samuel Harris (born Jul 1789 - although seems a bit young for someone who married in 1806, although not impossible, so he may have been unsure of his age as just month and year listed)
Sarah Harris (born 21 Sept 1798)
all baptised to William and Elizabeth Harris, fishman. They were all resident in Great Coggeshall at the time.
In fact there are four pages of baptisms for 30 Jun 1816, many of them not infants, suggesting either the vicar was offering a discount on baptisms to get people to be baptised or he'd been chasing up the families.
I looked between 1808 and the end of 1825 and there is, as I'm sure findem is aware, a distinct lack of Harris baptisms in Coggeshall over that period, suggesting that the families were either elsewhere or using a non-conformist chapel at that time. I wonder though, as mentioned, if perhaps Samuel and Amelia at least were elsewhere in light of his occupation and then returned. There are also a few sparse baptisms to a Robert, George and William Harris in there over that period who could be relatives.
Hopefully, the marriage certificate should give at least some clue to John's parents' identities. ;D
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Thanks again ---- as I am learning with genealogical research each new exctatic discovery gives birth to a dozen new frustrating questions :)
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Hi. I agree with all of above. Maybe there'll be more luck finding Elizabeth nicholl's side? If you purchase the marriage cert, go straight to GRO site, as cheaper than ancestry. You will have to wait longer for it though. If they can't find it, you'll get an email and refund from them.
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There's a John Harris baptised in Feering (only short distance away from coggeshall) 14 August 1818 to a Mary and William Harris, husbandman?
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It's a possibility but most of the census data points to an 1814 birth rather consistently--- as to the Nichols--- more luck there we can trace that branch of the family back to John and Mary Ambrose around mid 18th century
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John was quite a few years older than his second wife so may well have lost a few on the Census. Wouldn't be the first person to do that. ;)
Anyway, it's all really speculation without the marriage certificate to confirm his father's name. ;D
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Yes we'll update this thread once we get a marriage certificate . Thanks again for taking the time and effort to help us out everyone :)
Rachel
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Hi
Like Smudwhisk I too noticed that there were several Adult baptisms suddenly recorded and wondered if there was a new vicar who was being very thorough. However on the 24th Decemebr 1815 there is a record of a marriage between William Harris of St Leonards Colchester to Sydney Emery of Coggeshall. It clearly states that Sydney made HIS mark......was this the first Gay Marriage in Coggeshall and also does it mean the Harris family could have come from Colchester There were lots of fishermen there too.
I did not find the birth in 1814. The only one similar was a very feint record either James or John to john and Amelia Harrison
Any help?
Regards
Ronnie :)
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I think all the information we can collect is helpful. All the census data save that of 1881 lists the birthdate as ant. 1814 and identifies Coggeshall as the place. The 1841 census has the marriage to Pheebe and points to a birthdate of 1811. Again, I think it all points to getting hold of the marriage licence
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Just as a matter of interest.
When I searched the Coggeshall baptism registers some years ago (unsuccessfully) for my c1806 Joseph Harris, I came across several instances of 'mass' baptisms', the ages in the baptisms ranged from infants to adults. Being puzzled why this was so I made some inquiries, apparently it is thought that one reason is most likely because Coggeshall was considered to be "a hot bed of dissenters".
It's a crying shame that most of the Coggeshall Congregational Baptism registers are not held by the ERO and the only way to check them is at the National Archives, it's high time they were held by the ERO where they belong. A straw I'm clutching at is that Joseph who claims he was born at Little Coggeshall will be in the Congregational baptisms but there is no way I can check it out in the National Archives.
Had my rant now for a cuppa.
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Coggeshall Congregational Church records I believe have been digitised and are now available on ancestry as well as thegenealogist. That is assuming it is the Stoneham Street Independent Chapel, which ancestry have indexed it as. Quick look on google suggests that is the case.
There aren't any Harris entries appearing in the index.
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Coggeshall Congregational Church records I believe have been digitised and are now available on ancestry as well as the genealogist. That is assuming it is the Stoneham Street Independent Chapel, which ancestry have indexed it as. Quick look on google suggests that is the case.
There aren't any Harris entries appearing in the index.
Many thanks smudwisk and damn, I had hopes pinned on Joseph Harris c1806, who claimed he was born in Lt Coggeshall, being baptised in that chapel, seeing as I can't find him in the registers of St Peter ad Vincular, still he might have been born there but baptised elsewhere I suppose. >:( :)
I'm pretty sure that the Stoneham Street Chapel is the Congregational Chapel, would have been handy for my Harris, Potter, Dalton and associated Coggeshall families, most of them at some time lived in Stoneham Street (aka Back Lane) or nearby.
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Hi Rachel,
My earliest known ancestor is Joseph Harris who claims he was born in Little Coggeshall c1806.
I descend from his son Joseph bap 1835 Gt Coggeshall, this Joseph had a brother William who married Anne Nichols in 1858 at Coggeshall, the Nichols surname has me wondering if my Harris line might be linked to yours.
Regards.
Hi Everyone,
I am Rachel's 3rd cousin. I have just joined RootsChat so I can follow this conversation. There isn't more to add until we get the marriage certificate of John Harris and Elizabeth Nichols which should be arriving soon.
I just wanted to say to Findem.....so far, we have 22 Harris and 26 Nichols names in the our tree and all from Coggeshall. I am sure we must have a connection somewhere! :)
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Hi Sarahd,
I think there could be a link considering the marriage of one of my Harris ancestor's sibling William Harris to Anne Nichols in 1858 but it could just be a coincidence of course, my Coggeshall Harris line goes from my grandmother Annie Harris born 1871 to Joseph Harris circa 1806/9.
If at any time you wish to compare Harris names etc let me know.
By the way in the Coggeshall Censuses I checked a good many years ago I noted some Harris people stated as being born in Woodham Walter, you may have already seen them but just in case not I thought I'd mention them. I haven't by the way linked them to my Coggeshall Harris line.
Regards.
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Just looked on woodham Mortimer. Found John Harris, of Joseph and Sarah Harris, but born oct 12 1816.
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No woodham Walter, woodham Mortimer or woodham ferrers marriage to a phoebe though :-(
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Hi,
Checked some old notes of mine yesterday and came across the following.
Joseph Harris bap 21 Apr 1810 the son of John & Hannah Harris, other children John 6 Nov 1791, Marian 23 Feb 1798, all at Woodham Walter.
I can't recall where I got that info from, I do know I once checked the Woodham Walter PRs but whether or not that info is sourced from those PRs I cannot say with any certainty.
I've made a note to buy some credits, hopefully some time soon, to search the ERO's SEAX Essex Ancestors Essex Ancestors and check if that particular Joseph Harris married or was buried in Woodham Walter. In the 1851 Coggeshall Census Joseph put his birth at around 1806, in the 1861 Census it was about 1809, a glimmer of hope there. :)
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Found a Joseph Harris who died in 1871 in woodham Walter. Aged 56 though.
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No other Joseph Harris deaths there up to 1909 :-(
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Thanks for that info nannyj, I'll have to have a think about the Joseph Harris who died in 1871, his age of 56 would see him born about 1815, unless of course whoever supplied his age made a guess and underestimated it. At least I've only to check marriages for him, by the way hope you don't mind me asking but at what year did you start the burial search?
Had a look at the online Coggeshall Congregational baptism registers yesterday, thanks to Smudwhisk's post, no Joseph Harris but was able to gain data regarding one of my Norfolk/Essex Dalton associated families, the Anthony family.
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Started about 1817! There's a Joseph Harris born to Joseph and Sarah feb 11 1816. Can't make out the place name. It's not well written. It ends in ting. Looked on google maps and couldn't find anything nearby that fits. Presumably the one who died in 1871. Maybe Joseph senior remarried? What dates are you looking for marriages and what names?
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Started about 1817! There's a Joseph Harris born to Joseph and Sarah feb 11 1816. Can't make out the place name. It's not well written. It ends in ting.
Can you give me a idea, however rough, please how many letters were in the place name?
The marriage search I had in mind was for a Joseph Harris born say around 1810 in Woodham Walter, I usually start when the person would be 16 and finish when they would be 30 so in this case 1826 to 1840, it can be a long search depending on the size of the parish, which is why I haven't requested a lookup.
Regards.
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Joseph Harris m Elizabeth Pratt 14/10/1840 woodham Walter. John Harris and Ruth Pratt witnesses. All wrote own names.
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I've had a quick look at that baptism entry in Woodham Walter and think that the parish of abode is the neighbouring parish of Ulting. :)
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Yes ... That would look right :-)
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Thank you nannyj for that info and the time you've spent on my behalf, much appreciated, so, it looks like exit Woodham Walter Joseph Harris from the scenario, oh well them's the breaks I suppose, it was clutching at straws I know.
Thanks Diblet for that deciphering, just trying to recall if I ever went to, or through, Ulting, I lived in Essex for the first 40 years of my life, I can recall going to Woodham Walter and Woodham Mortimer.
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Hi Everyone,
I have the marriage certificate now of John Harris and Elizabeth Nichols. Hopefully you can see it on this link - http://postimg.org/image/q4sw0y88l/
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Exciting. I've lost the thread of where you were going. Is there anything you want to find now that you have this? Best wishes. Jacqui
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Definitely seems to suggest that John was the son of Samuel and Amelia and perhaps was never baptised. ;D
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With all the catch up 'baptisms of the masses' at Coggeshall St Peter ad Vincular I would think it likely that some slipped through the net and were never baptised, my Joseph Harris for one.
Regards.