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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Suz73 on Saturday 01 March 14 06:01 GMT (UK)
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I'm looking for any information on John McGillvray born abt 1821 Dysart, fife married 1840 to Agnes (Keay) born abt 1815 Dysart, fife I know they came to Australia and have found most of the family after these 2 but I keep hitting a brick wall trying to find Johns parents. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I do have possible birth dates for John 1 October 1817 and Agnes 11 May 1815 but these don't match up with the 1841/51 Scotland census. Their Children are
Agnes Duncan McGillivray 28 Oct 1837 in Dysart, fife
ISABELLA MCGILLIVRAY 4 Dec 1841 in Dysart, Fife, Scotland
John McGillivray 8 Mar 1844 in Kirkaldy, fife
James McGilvray 19 SEP 1849 in Abbotshall, Kikcaldy, Fyfeshire, Scotland
Mary McGillivray 4 Mar 1851 in Abbotshall, fife
They all arrived in Australia in 1853.
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Hi Suz,
Have you looked on Scotlands People at the original marriage record? Often the Old Parish Records just record the couples names but on occassions there can be extra nuggets of information which can help.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby,
This is what I have so far:
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Baptisms were registered in 1852 Abbotshall before they left for Australia. Wondering if the last 2 aren't Mum & Dad and their parents??
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Hi Suz
The 1st daughter...was actually born abt 3 years before John & Agnes married? Perhaps she wasn't the natural child of John - the 1841 Census tends to indicate as much?
1841: Philps Close, Dysart
John McGILVARY 20, Flax Dresser
Agnes McGILVARY 30,
Agnes DUNCAN 4
If we only look at the children born AFTER the marriage we get a naming pattern to consider:
Isabella (1st daughter)
John (1st Son)
James (2nd Son)
Mary (2nd daughter)
Which very nicely fits the traditional naming pattern, per the two older persons being baptised in 1852………that is:
1st dau & 2nd son - parents of Wife
1st son & 2nd dau - parents of Husband
I do agree those 2 late-life baptisms are very likely to be your John & Agnes, getting themselves all ready to immigrate - perhaps some official proof of their birth being required.
And I still think that - even though there 'healthy' gaps in which other children could have been born, who may have died soon after birth, or pregnancies which did not go to term:
between 1 & 2 (2yrs, 3mths)
between 3 & 4 (5 yrs 6mths)
Looking at the 1851 Census (FREECEN) Agnes is 36 (born abt 1815) so no conflict there with the baptism stated birthdate. John is age 30 in the Census (born abt 1821), which is abt 4 yrs 'out', not too wildly out - what dates etc do you have for him in Australian records?
Cheers
AMBLY
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I see they arrived in Melbourne 15 May 1853, out of Liverpool, on the ship "Sea" or "Dea"
McGILLVRAY
John (b abt 1818)
Agnes (b abt 1816)
Agnes (b abt 1838)
Isabel (b abt 1842)
John (b abt 1845)
James (b abt 1850)
Mary (b abt 1852)
Both Scottish Census have Agnes a fair bit older than her husband John.
But both the baptisms of the adult John and the John on the passenger list have a birthdate around 1817/1818, slightly older only - Perhaps John needed to be under a certain age to qualify for assisted immigration?
Australian Death Index:
Agnes McGILVARY
Died 1866 in Victoria, age 55 (born abt 1811)
Father: James KAY
Mother: Arabella BRIAD
Her age at death is abt 5 yrs off, but otherwise this fits with the 1852 baptism (note, the mother is highly unlikely to be 'Arabella' - not is Scotland, in Dysart in that time !)
Cheers
AMBLY
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You have exactly what I have!! I have all the info on Son James!!
James McGilvray
Birth 19 SEP 1849 in Abbotshall, Kikcaldy, Fyfeshire, Scotland Death 17 NOV 1925 in Allan's Flat, Victoria, Australia Married Susan Withers 6 Children!!
Daughter Isabella
4 Dec 1841 in Dysart, Fife, Scotland Married Charles Elgar 10 children. The rest is a mystery!!
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Hi again,
Would agree that Agnes Duncan aged 4 on 1841 Census is most likely Agnes snr's illegitmate daughter or a daughter born to an earlier marriage.
There is another family on the 1841 which may be of interest.
High Street, Dysart,
McGULLVERY John age 50 Carter born Fife
McGullvery Mary age 40 born Fife
McGullvery Archibald age 15 Flax Dresser born Fife
McGullvery Elisabeth age 15 born Fife
McGullvery William age 5 born Fife
McGullvery Andrew age 5 born Fife
McGullvery /McGillvray could both be the same ;D
Looby :)
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Same couple in 1851-
High Street Dysart-
McGILVERY John Head age 66 Carter born Dysart Fife
McGilvery Mary Wife age 54 born Dysart Fife
McGilvery Andrew Son age 15 Currier App born Dysart Fife.
Ages don't match exactly with 1841 but ages on the 1841 Census can be unreliable due to the rounding down (and in some case rounding up) ages to the nearest 5 or 0 for adults over 15.
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Do you think they could be my Johns parents and younger siblings??
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I think they would certainly be worth investigating further. :D
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I think they would certainly be worth investigating further. :D
Totally agree ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks so much for the help!!!! I really don't know what Im looking for with county's and Parishes as I really don't know Scotland at all! You guys found (the small amount of information I had) In 1 night what took me weeks.
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I found dates for John Married to Mary Taylor
John McGillvray
Birth 06-October-1783 in Dysart, Fife, Scotland
Death 20 Jan 1862 in Dysart, Fife, Scotland
Married ????
Mary Taylor
Birth 1793 Fife, Scotland
Death 1852 Fife, Scotland
Don't know if they are the right ones??? They don't quite match the census records found last night!!!
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Hi Suz
Looking on Freecen's website www.freecen.org.uk at the 1841 Census. I searched Dysart in Fife for everyone with the surname beginning McG****** . There were only 17 people ;)
And of those only 11 were McGilvary/McGullvery or variations of the name - 6 members of the McGullvery family - your 2 ancestors John and Agnes - and three others 2 females and a young child.
That was why I thought John and Mary could have been John's parents. :-\ And I still think they look a good possibilty.
I found dates for John Married to Mary Taylor
John McGillvray
Birth 06-October-1783 in Dysart, Fife, Scotland
Death 20 Jan 1862 in Dysart, Fife, Scotland
Married ????
Mary Taylor
Birth 1793 Fife, Scotland
Death 1852 Fife, Scotland
Don't know if they are the right ones??? They don't quite match the census records found last night!!!
Have you looked on Scotlands People at the above deaths? Particularly John McGillvray's as he has died after Statutory Death Registration began and therefore there would be a death certificate with address, occupation, parents names,marital status. spouse's name cause of death, age and the name of the person who registered the death and their connection to the deceased. Of course, most of that info is only as accurate as the knowledge/memory of the person who registered the death.
Quite often surviving family members or friends etc. weren't really sure what age their old mum/dad had been or what their parents were called, So sometimes details can be a bit dodgy! ;D
Looby :)
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Thanks Looby. I will try Scotlands People as soon as I can get to the bank so they can authorize the debit of my visa. Where would the best place to look for marriage info on John and Mary?? I found only 1 possible on ancestry it was 1808
Name:
John Mcgill
Gender:
Male
Marriage Date:
10 Dec 1808
Marriage Place:
Kilcalmonell and Kilberry,Argyll,Scotland ( are these close to Dysart, Fife)
Spouse:
Mary Taylor
Scotland, Select Marriages, 1561-1910
Mary would have only been 15!! :-[
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Hi Suz,
I think that couple are highly unlikely to be your John McGillvray and Mary Taylor.
Kilcalmonell and Kilberry was a small parish in Argyll on the West Coast of Scotland.
Dysart , Fife is on the East Coast. They are approx. 170 miles apart and according to Google maps a good three and a half hour journey by car on today's roads.
If your John and Mary were born in Fife they probably married in Fife. Unfortunately before 1855 it was not compulsory or necessary for a record of BMD's to be kept. The Old Parish Records (OPR's) would be the records to search but you may draw a blank. It's possible that no record of their marriage exists.
Looby :)
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Hi Suz.
On Scotlands People there is a death recorded on the Statutory Deaths -
and this is the exact spelling :)
McGillivray John - year 1862 - age 81 - Fife - Dysart.
Looby :)
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Looby
I thought It was a long shot but it was the only record I could find to match for a marriage and 15 is too young!! :P And I will admit I had no idea where Kilcalmonell and Kilberry was in relation to Dysart, Fife. Will run up to the bank now so I can look on Scotlands people and see what info McGillivray John - year 1862 - age 81 - Fife - Dysart. has. Thanks so much for the help its nice having someone who knows where to look and where all these places are!!!! With out you I would be lost!!
Suzanne
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No problem ;D
Hope that death cert gives you some information. I don't know if we've definitely tied John and Agnes who went to Australia with this couple yet.
By the way I think the boy William aged 5 on the 1841 and who does not appear on the 1851 with the family, could be lodging in Fife Wemyss - He's a 20 year old miner.
Good luck with Scotlands People. I've tried for a marriage between Mary Taylor and John Mcgillvray but had no joy.
Looby :)
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Death dates a match. He is widowed!!
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No info on Mum in death info I found baptism rec for John 29 Sept 1783 lists Margaret and Thomas as parents. Found Margret and Thomas wedding rec 7 March 1777 no other names listed in it. So Family all seems to match!!