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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: muzzy bear on Wednesday 12 March 14 05:15 GMT (UK)
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Anyone help me find info on Thomas HILL from when he landed at Port Phillip Bay on the Suffolk in 1857 as a 15y/o, to marrying Elizabeth HUNT in Gunnedah 1864?
He was born in Rochdale 1842 to Robert HILL & Hannah CHADWICK.
I found a 20y/o Thomas HILL crewman on the Aladdin whaling voyager arriving in NSW from Tasmania 1862, but don't know if it's him(nationality Tasmanian).
Cheers Murray
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;D
Reg 3130 Yr 1864 HILL Thomas
To HUNT Elizabeth
At TAMWORTH
;D
Sue
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Hi there,
May I please ask what NSW BDM documents you have already obtained regarding your Thomas HILL or your Elizabeth HUNT?
May I also learn where you have found his nationality?
Anyone help me find info on Thomas HILL from when he landed at Port Phillip Bay on the Suffolk in 1857 as a 15y/o, to marrying Elizabeth HUNT in Gunnedah 1864?
He was born in Rochdale 1842 to Robert HILL & Hannah CHADWICK.
I found a 20y/o Thomas HILL crewman on the Aladdin whaling voyager arriving in NSW from Tasmania 1862, but don't know if it's him(nationality Tasmanian).
Cheers Murray
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
May I please ask what NSW BDM documents you have already obtained regarding your Thomas HILL or your Elizabeth HUNT?
May I also learn where you have found his nationality?
Anyone help me find info on Thomas HILL from when he landed at Port Phillip Bay on the Suffolk in 1857 as a 15y/o, to marrying Elizabeth HUNT in Gunnedah 1864?
He was born in Rochdale 1842 to Robert HILL & Hannah CHADWICK.
I found a 20y/o Thomas HILL crewman on the Aladdin whaling voyager arriving in NSW from Tasmania 1862, but don't know if it's him(nationality Tasmanian).
Cheers Murray
Cheers, JM
Hi there I have his marriage cert.-has very little info on it. Also have his death cert. - relevant info puts him in Nsw from 1862. I know he was born in Rochdale, UK in 1842.
If the 15y/o arriving in Port Phillip Bay in 1857 is mine - what happened to him between 1857 & 1864? The only info I could find is a Thomas HILL from Tasmania, boatsteerer on the whaling voyager Aladdin arriving in Nsw 1862. He married Elizabeth HUNT in Gunnedah, 1864.
Cheers - MB
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Can you give all of the information on the marriage and death certificates please?
Have you confirmed that the 15 year old arriving on the Suffolk is your Thomas HILL?.
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Can you give all of the information on the marriage and death certificates please?
Have you confirmed that the 15 year old arriving on the Suffolk is your Thomas HILL?.
Marriage Certificate - 1864 / 003130
married 27 Jan Gunnedah, NSW - Engineer. Residence: Burburgate, Gunnedah
witness signatures illegible
Death Certificate - 1918 / 014568
Dec 18 - 20 Cleveland St. Darlington - House Agent - age 76
Father - Robert HILL; Mother - Hannah
Born - Lancashire, England - 56 years in NSW
Married - Elizabeth HUNT @ 22 years
plus all the children of marriage.
Informant - Robert H HILL, brother.
Could not find any way of determining if this was my Thomas - on the shipping list the only description of him was 15 years, labourer, from England [no other HILLS on board]
NB. I couldn't find another Thomas HILL at the right age on any other ships lists right up to 1864 when he was definitely in NSW{from 1862 according to his death certificate}.
cheers
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I'm curious to know why you think he would travel 250 miles to Gravesend to board a ship when Rochdale is 40 miles from Liverpool? Which was a very busy port.
Many young lads worked their passages on ships back then & often not listed on manifests.
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Hi
Yes there are blanks on that marriage cert but I am quite sure you have not typed up all the info that is on it. Who was the clergy .... Anyone make their mark .... Is it all in the same handwriting .... have you sought the original Church register ....
Cheers JM
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Your previous threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=562983.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=563372.0
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Death Certificate - 1918 / 014568
Informant - Robert H HILL, brother.
Do you know when & what ship his brother arrived on? Did any other family members emigrate also?
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His brother Robert Hill was at home as a 5 yo in 1861 along with both parents and most of siblings.
Thomas is not on the 1861 census that I can see. To have a listing as an engineer on his MC he must have had a TRADE so unlikly he was an oarsman on a whaler.
Not all fare paying passengers are listed on indexes.
Neil
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Engine Drivers often were referred to as Engineers.
Gerry
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I'm curious to know why you think he would travel 250 miles to Gravesend to board a ship when Rochdale is 40 miles from Liverpool? Which was a very busy port.
Many young lads worked their passages on ships back then & often not listed on manifests.
It all seems odd to me that a 15y/o would do that, BUT he's the only Thomas HILL I was able to pin down at the precise age travelling to Australia
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Engine Drivers often were referred to as Engineers.
Gerry
On one of his son's birth cert. his job is Auctioneer = which he pursued right throughout his life - being called a House Agent on his death cert.
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His brother Robert Hill was at home as a 5 yo in 1861 along with both parents and most of siblings.
Thomas is not on the 1861 census that I can see. To have a listing as an engineer on his MC he must have had a TRADE so unlikly he was an oarsman on a whaler.
Not all fare paying passengers are listed on indexes.
Neil
Touche' - my thoughts exactly. clutching straws here as that was the ONLY Thomas HILL I could find at the right age entering NSW
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His brother Robert Hill was at home as a 5 yo in 1861 along with both parents and most of siblings.
Thomas is not on the 1861 census that I can see. To have a listing as an engineer on his MC he must have had a TRADE so unlikly he was an oarsman on a whaler.
Not all fare paying passengers are listed on indexes.
Neil
hmmmm - point taken. My 2X grandfather Robert H HILL(his youngest brother) brought his family out here in 1910 on the Zieten & 1911 on the Corinthian.
Obviously he wouldn't be an Engineer at age 15 - is it feasible that he served his time on the ships and became an Engineer between 1862 - 1864?
As I have stated on other posts, this is the ONLY Thomas HILL I could find travelling from England to Australia between 1851 - 1864 being the correct age.
MB
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Death Certificate - 1918 / 014568
Informant - Robert H HILL, brother.
Do you know when & what ship his brother arrived on? Did any other family members emigrate also?
His youngest brother Robert H (my 2X grandfather) brought his family out much later in 2 moves - some on the Zieten 1910 - others on the Corinthian 1911.
As far as I'm aware, they were the only family members to follow Thomas out here - their parents Robert & Hannah both died in Rochdale.
MB
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Hi there,
May I please mention that NOT ALL shipping lists have survived. If your chap arrived in the 1850s, it is possible that you may not ever find the exact details of his arrival. Afterall, many of the shipping clerks simply quit, and went off to the gold fields too, just like the incoming passengers, crew, and the locals.....
Have you searched for Thos HILL, rather than Thomas HILL as a passenger? As your Robert Hill did not arrive until decades later, may I suggest that the info about "How Long in the Colonies" from Thomas' death cert,may not be as accurate as you would want it to be.
Re the 1864 marriage certificate. (Please do post the name of the clergyman, or at least the denomination)
The bride and the groom provided identifying details about themselves to the clergy (eg where born, their parents names, father's occupation etc). The clergy recorded that information. So it is first hand information, and should be more reliable than say info from a death cert.
The NSW BDM may not have received ALL that recorded information. It is not at all unusual for there to be blanks on the NSW BDM records for the decades 1856-1895, and NSW BDM itself gives you clues as to how to overcome those hurdles on their webpages. Here is a thread I did up to help RChatters re those blanks...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Here is part of a statement from the NSW BDM website re those blanks.
""The Registry took this opportunity to request access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers. Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.
The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate....."
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
You mentioned that the witnesses signatures are hard to decipher. If you take a snip of a scan of the mc, and upload it to RChat, there's a decipher board that is fantastic ....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=425.0
I have a number of offline hardcopy NSW resources, particularly for the 19th Century. I am happy to help, but I need more clues from you.
ADD
Here's a link to RChat's Australia Resources Board. There's child boards for each state/territory. There's live links to passenger and passenger/crew lists on those boards.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=399.0
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
May I please mention that NOT ALL shipping lists have survived. If your chap arrived in the 1850s, it is possible that you may not ever find the exact details of his arrival. Afterall, many of the shipping clerks simply quit, and went off to the gold fields too, just like the incoming passengers, crew, and the locals.....
Have you searched for Thos HILL, rather than Thomas HILL as a passenger? As your Robert Hill did not arrive until decades later, may I suggest that the info about "How Long in the Colonies" from Thomas' death cert,may not be as accurate as you would want it to be.
Re the 1864 marriage certificate. (Please do post the name of the clergyman, or at least the denomination)
The bride and the groom provided identifying details about themselves to the clergy (eg where born, their parents names, father's occupation etc). The clergy recorded that information. So it is first hand information, and should be more reliable than say info from a death cert.
The NSW BDM may not have received ALL that recorded information. It is not at all unusual for there to be blanks on the NSW BDM records for the decades 1856-1895, and NSW BDM itself gives you clues as to how to overcome those hurdles on their webpages. Here is a thread I did up to help RChatters re those blanks...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Here is part of a statement from the NSW BDM website re those blanks.
""The Registry took this opportunity to request access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers. Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.
The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate....."
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
You mentioned that the witnesses signatures are hard to decipher. If you take a snip of a scan of the mc, and upload it to RChat, there's a decipher board that is fantastic ....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=425.0
I have a number of offline hardcopy NSW resources, particularly for the 19th Century. I am happy to help, but I need more clues from you.
ADD
Here's a link to RChat's Australia Resources Board. There's child boards for each state/territory. There's live links to passenger and passenger/crew lists on those boards.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=399.0
Cheers, JM
Thanks for info. I have tried with just surname HILL also.
Even if the death cert. was inaccurate, Thomas married in NSW 1864 - 46 years before Robert came out.
I will try that snippet scan of the witnesses and the clergyman's signatures, thanks.
Add following - "rites of the church of England".
I'll be back tomorrow morning - cheers MB
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I don't know how deeply you have assessed the passenger lists, but I did so again this morning and from 19 separate Thomas Hill's that arrived between 1842 and 1862 none are your chap. Seems a common name now that I have looked. :P
Neil
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Just an aside re his brother Robert H HILL. I see his arrival and death but NSW BMD index shows his parents as Fredrick and Elizabeth. ??? Judith
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Snap Judith .... ;D
I have been looking at the Unassisted Arrivals to NSW 1842-1855 and matching up the "ships" with the mariners in Au waters images...
Have you eliminated the "18" year old :
NSW SRO Index to the Unassisted Arrivals NSW 1842-1855
Thos HILL, 18, London Packet, C, 27 Jun 1854, Whaling, Seaman, Sydney, shipped at Sydney…
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-immigration-and-shipping-records/index-to-unassisted-immigrants
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/documents/pastkeys/UAIntro3.pdf
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1854/06/scan.asp?filename=056lon.gif
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1854/06/056lon.htm
I cannot actually confirm from the online image that his given name is Thos, but I can see that the transcriber has :) The stated Ages for Crew is often considered as a moveable feast.
Cheers, JM
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The Gunnedah C of E parish records are likely archived via the Diocese offices. Here is the link to their website. May I encourage you to send a brief email enquiry to them, perhaps attaching your NSW BDM certificate, and asking them to advise you about the missing information. You may need to be patient as it is likely their archives are managed by volunteers who may well be involved in many parish activities for their local congregations, particularly this time of the year.
http://www.armidaleanglicandiocese.com/
Cheers, JM
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May I also learn where you have found his nationality?
Aladdin whaling voyager arriving in NSW from Tasmania 1862, but don't know if it's him(nationality Tasmanian).
Answering one of my own questions….
Likely it is from an image of the crew and passenger list for the Aladdin, a barque of 287 tons, of Hobart Town, with Nichols as her Master, into Sydney 8 Sept 1862 after a Whaling Voyage…
Thomas HILL, a Boatsteerer, aged 20 (one of three Boatsteerers on that vessel) of Tasmania. May I note that other crew were of Isle of Wright, of New York, of North Wales, of Sydney, of Manchester, of London, of Georgia US, of N Zealand, etc etc etc, so I would expect that 20 year old chap to be of “ Tasmania”, and not of Rochdale, Lancs, England. There were two other crew who were also of “Tasmania”. I would expect the ship's Master to know all the different accents and even the different languages spoken by the crew....
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1862/09/scan.asp?filename=024ala.gif
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1862/09/024ala.htm
I am well be wrong, but I think that record is showing that THAT Thomas Hill was of Tasmania, and not of Rochdale, England....
Cheers, JM
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I had dispensed with that Thos Hill 1854 as he would have been a bit young at 12 to even be a cabin boy, I would have thought JM ???
But stranger things have happened. my other thought was what would he have done with himself in Sydney as a 12yo, maybe signed back on perhaps to learn his trade as an Engineer ::) Although from my knowlege, scant as it is, no engines were fitted to Packets, aren't they are a strictly sailed vessel ???
Hmm, read a bit more, hybrids were utilised from the 1850's.
So engines were fitted :-[
Neil
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Just for a minute consider that the 12 year old in 1854 may have been a strong tall lad, growing taller and stronger by the day ...
Cheers, JM
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NSW Electoral Roll 1870 LIVERPOOL PLAINS
For the (large) police district of Tamworth,
And with the surname HILL:
Daniel, residence, Manilla
Edward, residence, Manilla
Richard, of Bason Creek, residence, near Wallabadah
Thomas, residence, of Boggabri
And with the surname HUNT:
Arthur, residence, Gunnedah
Frederick E, residence, Gunnedah
John Frederick, residence, Gunnedah
John, senior, residence, Gunnedah
Robert, residence, Boggabri
Samuel, residence, Boggabri
NSW ER 1878 LIVERPOOL PLAINS, and for the police district of Gunnedah
Thomas HILL, of Rocky Glen, freehold, Boggabri (no others surnamed HILL in this section of this roll)
ALL with HUNT :
Arthur H., , residence, Gunnedah
Frederick E, residence, Gunnedah
John Frederick, of Crindle Creek, residence, Goolhi
John, senior, freehold of Gunnedah
Robert Eastway, freehold of Crindle Creek
Samuel, residence, of Garrawilla
John J, residence, of Gunnedah
James, residence, of Gullendaddy
Cheers, JM
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GREVILLE 1875 Post Office Directory
BOGGABRI
Thomas Hill, Storekeeper, Rocky Glen
He is also listed in 1872, under Boggabri…
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=11
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hcastle/grevilles/grevilles.html
Cheers, JM
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Snap Judith .... ;D
I have been looking at the Unassisted Arrivals to NSW 1842-1855 and matching up the "ships" with the mariners in Au waters images...
Have you eliminated the "18" year old :
NSW SRO Index to the Unassisted Arrivals NSW 1842-1855
Thos HILL, 18, London Packet, C, 27 Jun 1854, Whaling, Seaman, Sydney, shipped at Sydney…
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-immigration-and-shipping-records/index-to-unassisted-immigrants
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/documents/pastkeys/UAIntro3.pdf
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1854/06/scan.asp?filename=056lon.gif
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1854/06/056lon.htm
I cannot actually confirm from the online image that his given name is Thos, but I can see that the transcriber has :) The stated Ages for Crew is often considered as a moveable feast.
Cheers, JM
I did discount that one because he would have been only 12 years old - thanks MB
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GREVILLE 1875 Post Office Directory
BOGGABRI
Thomas Hill, Storekeeper, Rocky Glen
He is also listed in 1872, under Boggabri…
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=11
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hcastle/grevilles/grevilles.html
Cheers, JM
Thanks everyone for your input. I think my next action will be to contact the Gunnedah C of E as suggested. Apart from that I think I'm only guessing as to which Thomas, if any of those, could be mine. Cheers for now - MB
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Hi there,
Re the "18" year old lad .... I am not sure that he can be ruled out. I am suggesting that the ages for the crew may be "moveable feasts" .... that is, there was NO system of checking if the information on these lists was actually factually correct. A strapping lad of 12 years of age could well have passed himself off as several years older, particularly if his beard was growing , his voice had matured, he stood say 5 ft 10 or so and he carried calluses well ;D .... There's many a boy sailing half way around the world in the 1850s, suffering gold fever, coming without parents or other family. In my own tree, I have two brothers arriving in 1854, aged 11 and 13. They could not read or write.
I think you should keep the "18" year old on the horizon and perhaps give him a greater consideration than say the lad on the Aladdin.... Just my own speculations of course ..... :)
With the gold rushes, even the locals ... the shipping clerks, the storekeepers, the clergy, the draymen, basically caught gold fever and took off, expecting to make their fortunes.... And of course, there were so many stranded ships without crew.... abandoned at their moorings.... Any crew signing on for a Whaling trip would have been hard to find in 1854, so it is entirely possible that there's some 'creativity' in the info provided on those passenger and crew lists that have survived....
Cheers, JM
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May I also learn where you have found his nationality?
Aladdin whaling voyager arriving in NSW from Tasmania 1862, but don't know if it's him(nationality Tasmanian).
Answering one of my own questions….
Likely it is from an image of the crew and passenger list for the Aladdin, a barque of 287 tons, of Hobart Town, with Nichols as her Master, into Sydney 8 Sept 1862 after a Whaling Voyage…
Thomas HILL, a Boatsteerer, aged 20 (one of three Boatsteerers on that vessel) of Tasmania. May I note that other crew were of Isle of Wright, of New York, of North Wales, of Sydney, of Manchester, of London, of Georgia US, of N Zealand, etc etc etc, so I would expect that 20 year old chap to be of “ Tasmania”, and not of Rochdale, Lancs, England. There were two other crew who were also of “Tasmania”. I would expect the ship's Master to know all the different accents and even the different languages spoken by the crew....
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1862/09/scan.asp?filename=024ala.gif
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1862/09/024ala.htm
I am well be wrong, but I think that record is showing that THAT Thomas Hill was of Tasmania, and not of Rochdale, England....
Cheers, JM
Please bear with me on this. If I had the right Thomas on the Suffolk 1857 arriving at Port Phillip Bay, wouldn't it be possible for him to immediately embark on the whaling ships based in Tasmania, and if he resided there for the next 5 years be considered a Tasmanian?
cheers MB
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Hi there,
I am not a TAS centric RChatter. I am NSW centric. But I share the following and of course I am hoping you will 'bear with me' too ;D :
The Island of Van Diemens Land (a British Colony with a Lieutenant Governor) became the British Colony of Tasmania when it was renamed in 1855 (shortly after transportation of convicted persons ceased). There is approximately 250 miles of ocean between the British Colony of Tasmania and the British Colony of Victoria. Port Phillip Bay is in Victoria.
Please bear with me on this. If I had the right Thomas on the Suffolk 1857 arriving at Port Phillip Bay, wouldn't it be possible for him to immediately embark on the whaling ships based in Tasmania, and if he resided there for the next 5 years be considered a Tasmanian?
cheers MB
To me, the heading reads “Of What Nation” ….
The crew members of “Tasmania” on that voyage into Sydney 8th September 1862 are:
Thomas HILL, 20 a Boatsteerer
John HANNEY, 23, a Seaman
Thos Geo Chas LUPTON, 19, a Boy.
Over quite a number of years, I have transcribed passenger lists and other archived material. I understand that I am of the last generation who were taught the style of handwriting at NSW Primary schools as used in those 19th Century shipping records.
I recollect that HILL can be read as MILL and as WILL and as HALE and as HALL and quite a number of other variations, all depending on the scribble of the person who originally wrote it down, the quality of the conservation of the record, (damage through usage of the original records, ink bleeds, how it has been stored etc) and of course the ability of the transcriber to READ what is written without imposing their own bias onto those words.
I clearly read Thomas Hill under the heading Seamen’s Names.
I clearly recognise ----do ----- to read “Boatsteerer under the heading Station (meaning his role on that voyage),
I clearly read he was 20 (years also being understood) and
under the heading “Of what Nation” I read Tasmania.
I do not know if that means he was born in Tasmania, or if he signed on for that voyage when it called into a port in Tasmania, or if he had grown up in Tasmania. But if you look down the transcribed list you will see there’s quite a number of chaps you could research as you have their names, ages, and “Of what Nation” …. For example, John Branson, 24, a Seaman of Manchester…. If he was born in 1838ish, then likely you should find his civil birth registration in the GRO records. So you should be able to devise a test to apply to your own research to decide if your speculation as to how a person became a Tasmanian back in the 1850s.... (If born in Tasmania then from a legal/constitutional perspective he was automatically a British Subject, by birth... ( often written as "natural born B.S." )
Re Tasmania records,
Census were undertaken in VDL in 1837, 1838, 1842, 1843, 1848, 1851, 1857. Most records have NOT survived But those that have, are digitised and free to search at the website for the Tasmanian Archives
See the following link http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=10 (Census) I am fairly certain that you will find quite a number of households for the surname HILL, and that these include male children, so Thomas Hill of Tasmania may well be a child born in Van Diemens Land. Civil registration for births dates from 1838, but there’s scant information on those early records,
http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/research/browse-by-category/familyhistory2/lifeevents/birthsoutsidetas
"Another source of birth, death and marriage information is the Colonial Tasmanian Family Links database, which can be accessed online. This index is not a direct index to records but contains a large amount of information (not necessarily verified) about Tasmanian families. Any information located in this index will need to be crosschecked with the Tasmanian pioneers index and other Church and family records."
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8 (JM has highlighted significant words red)
http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/global/aboutlinc/information/collections/archives
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2125029
Tasmania is one of the six foundation British Colonies that were federated in 1901 to form the Commonwealth of Australia.
Fingers crossed all this is helpful, and I am not typing up info that you already are very familiar with. If so, please accept my apologies.
Cheers, JM
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Thomas is very young on arrival in 1857.
Have you accounted for the siblings of Thomas HILL, parents Robert and Hannah, in case Thomas HILL travelled to Australia with a married sister and her family?
Thomas HILL is son of Robert HILL and Hannah CHADWICK. On Suffolk arr. Port Phillip Aug 1857 is this family -
CHADWICK, Edward 33, Sarah 27, Ashworth 7, Arthur 6 and Emma 1...possibly relatives?
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Hi there,
I am not a TAS centric RChatter. I am NSW centric. But I share the following and of course I am hoping you will 'bear with me' too ;D :
The Island of Van Diemens Land (a British Colony with a Lieutenant Governor) became the British Colony of Tasmania when it was renamed in 1855 (shortly after transportation of convicted persons ceased). There is approximately 250 miles of ocean between the British Colony of Tasmania and the British Colony of Victoria. Port Phillip Bay is in Victoria.
Please bear with me on this. If I had the right Thomas on the Suffolk 1857 arriving at Port Phillip Bay, wouldn't it be possible for him to immediately embark on the whaling ships based in Tasmania, and if he resided there for the next 5 years be considered a Tasmanian?
cheers MB
To me, the heading reads “Of What Nation” ….
The crew members of “Tasmania” on that voyage into Sydney 8th September 1862 are:
Thomas HILL, 20 a Boatsteerer
John HANNEY, 23, a Seaman
Thos Geo Chas LUPTON, 19, a Boy.
Over quite a number of years, I have transcribed passenger lists and other archived material. I understand that I am of the last generation who were taught the style of handwriting at NSW Primary schools as used in those 19th Century shipping records.
I recollect that HILL can be read as MILL and as WILL and as HALE and as HALL and quite a number of other variations, all depending on the scribble of the person who originally wrote it down, the quality of the conservation of the record, (damage through usage of the original records, ink bleeds, how it has been stored etc) and of course the ability of the transcriber to READ what is written without imposing their own bias onto those words.
I clearly read Thomas Hill under the heading Seamen’s Names.
I clearly recognise ----do ----- to read “Boatsteerer under the heading Station (meaning his role on that voyage),
I clearly read he was 20 (years also being understood) and
under the heading “Of what Nation” I read Tasmania.
I do not know if that means he was born in Tasmania, or if he signed on for that voyage when it called into a port in Tasmania, or if he had grown up in Tasmania. But if you look down the transcribed list you will see there’s quite a number of chaps you could research as you have their names, ages, and “Of what Nation” …. For example, John Branson, 24, a Seaman of Manchester…. If he was born in 1838ish, then likely you should find his civil birth registration in the GRO records. So you should be able to devise a test to apply to your own research to decide if your speculation as to how a person became a Tasmanian back in the 1850s.... (If born in Tasmania then from a legal/constitutional perspective he was automatically a British Subject, by birth... ( often written as "natural born B.S." )
Re Tasmania records,
Census were undertaken in VDL in 1837, 1838, 1842, 1843, 1848, 1851, 1857. Most records have NOT survived But those that have, are digitised and free to search at the website for the Tasmanian Archives
See the following link http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=10 (Census) I am fairly certain that you will find quite a number of households for the surname HILL, and that these include male children, so Thomas Hill of Tasmania may well be a child born in Van Diemens Land. Civil registration for births dates from 1838, but there’s scant information on those early records,
http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/research/browse-by-category/familyhistory2/lifeevents/birthsoutsidetas
"Another source of birth, death and marriage information is the Colonial Tasmanian Family Links database, which can be accessed online. This index is not a direct index to records but contains a large amount of information (not necessarily verified) about Tasmanian families. Any information located in this index will need to be crosschecked with the Tasmanian pioneers index and other Church and family records."
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8 (JM has highlighted significant words red)
http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/global/aboutlinc/information/collections/archives
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2125029
Tasmania is one of the six foundation British Colonies that were federated in 1901 to form the Commonwealth of Australia.
Fingers crossed all this is helpful, and I am not typing up info that you already are very familiar with. If so, please accept my apologies.
Cheers, JM
hmmmm - I surrender! I get the gist that the TH on the Aladdin is probably not mine.
JM - I appreciate the amount of work you've put into this one - thanks.
I'm familiar with the geographical and historical aspects of Tasmania - just couldn't find any other TH that fitted the bill, nor could I find any corroborating proof.
I'm taking on board the suggestions put forward = will let you know if I get anywhere.
Cheers - MB
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Thomas is very young on arrival in 1857.
Have you accounted for the siblings of Thomas HILL, parents Robert and Hannah, in case Thomas HILL travelled to Australia with a married sister and her family?
Thomas HILL is son of Robert HILL and Hannah CHADWICK. On Suffolk arr. Port Phillip Aug 1857 is this family -
CHADWICK, Edward 33, Sarah 27, Ashworth 7, Arthur 6 and Emma 1...possibly relatives?
Yeh I did think of those Chadwicks - could be distant relatives - I'll research them. However, parents Robert & Hannah plus all the other children were still in Rochdale in 1861 Census.
cheers - MB
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Thomas is very young on arrival in 1857.
Have you accounted for the siblings of Thomas HILL, parents Robert and Hannah, in case Thomas HILL travelled to Australia with a married sister and her family?
Thomas HILL is son of Robert HILL and Hannah CHADWICK. On Suffolk arr. Port Phillip Aug 1857 is this family -
CHADWICK, Edward 33, Sarah 27, Ashworth 7, Arthur 6 and Emma 1...possibly relatives?
Yeh I did think of those Chadwicks - could be distant relatives - I'll research them. However, parents Robert & Hannah plus all the other children were still in Rochdale in 1861 Census.
cheers - MB
Not necessarily distant relatives, if Edward was the brother of Hannnah then he would be the uncle of Thomas. Have you researched Hannahs family?
Andy
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Thomas is very young on arrival in 1857.
Have you accounted for the siblings of Thomas HILL, parents Robert and Hannah, in case Thomas HILL travelled to Australia with a married sister and her family?
Thomas HILL is son of Robert HILL and Hannah CHADWICK. On Suffolk arr. Port Phillip Aug 1857 is this family -
CHADWICK, Edward 33, Sarah 27, Ashworth 7, Arthur 6 and Emma 1...possibly relatives?
Yeh I did think of those Chadwicks - could be distant relatives - I'll research them. However, parents Robert & Hannah plus all the other children were still in Rochdale in 1861 Census.
cheers - MB
Not necessarily distant relatives, if Edward was the brother of Hannnah then he would be the uncle of Thomas. Have you researched Hannahs family?
Andy
Very good point Andy - no, I didn't give Hannah's family the attention I should have.
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;D Hoping this will help too :)
The Suffolk passenger list of 21 May 1857 reads for the Chadwick family (travelling steerage):
Embarked Gravesend,
Edward, 33, Merchant, English, (for) Melbourne (all his family were recorded as English, for Melbourne)
Sarah, 27, wife
Arthur, 7,
Ashworth, 6
Emma, 1
And on another page of that 21 May 1857 passenger list :
Hill, Thomas, 15, Labourer, English, (for) Melbourne (travelling steerage)
The Suffolk arrived 19 August 1857 :) http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88001172 Bendigo Advertiser 20 August 1857 :) :)
Cheers, JM
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Just adding this comment which appears on an Ancestry family tree:
According to my Dad, * , Thomas left Rochdale in the UK to take up a posting in Australia as an engineer to oversee the running of a new Wool-Scourer sent over from England.
Debra :)
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Just adding this comment which appears on an Ancestry family tree:
According to my Dad, * , Thomas left Rochdale in the UK to take up a posting in Australia as an engineer to oversee the running of a new Wool-Scourer sent over from England.
Debra :)
Thanks Debra & JM - all those details have been noted for reference
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Some good finds - well done. Some additional questions though.
Firstly the 1851 census (as I'm finding it tedious to look it up all the time ;D ) The image is so poor that it is almost illegible, unfortunately and I can't make out Robert's occupation.
At Butterworth, Lancashire
Robt Hill 39
Hannah Hill 38
Elizabeth Hill 14
Adam Hill 12
Alice Hill 10
Thos Hill 9
John Hill 7
Ann Hill 4
Alfred Hill 9 Mo
And 1861 at 3 Whatmough? St, Castleton, Rochdale
Robert Hill 50, book-keeper at colliery?
Hannah Hill 50
Elizth Hill 24
Adam Hill 22 blacksmith, b Oldham
Alice Hill 20
John Hill 17 blacksmith
Ann Hill 14
Alfred Hill 11
Sarah Hill 7
Robert Hill 5
Robert's occupation in 1841 was listed as 'publican'
Now - at least one anomaly, re the CHADWICK family on the Suffolk:
FreeBMD lists only one registered birth of the name "Ashworth CHADWICK"
Sep qr 1847
Ashworth CHADWICK, reg Haslingden Vol 21, p 423
There is only one Ashworth CHADWICK indexed on censuses in 1851 and later. His parents are listed as William and Ann CHADWICK. His marriage and death are listed in UK.
Nor do I see an Ashworth CHADWICK on Oz records.
I cannot see a suitable Edward and Sarah CHADWICK family on the 1851 census either. :-\
Judith
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It would be really helpful to have all the information on the marriage certificate 1864, better still, an image of the certificate.
FREEBDM
Edward CHADWICK m. Sarah BUCKLEY Sep Q 1850 Rochdale 21 / 613
Robert HILL, at 1918, gives 56 years in NSW for brother Thomas. If he said 50 I might think he was rounding a number. I would be guided by that information until you know otherwise...only reference you have to the arrival of Thomas in Australia, and no mention of Victoria. Thomas HILL is a very ordinary name, just needs a transcription error for him to be Thomas HALL/HALE etc. and not to be found in passenger list, if he ever was on a passenger list.
I cannot imagine that he would be sent alone to Australia as a 15 year old to establish a family enterprise?. If he came to Australia at that age I think he was travelling with relatives. If he travelled alone I think he is older than 15 at arrival.
IGA marriage
Robert HILL m. Hannah CHADWICK 8 Apr 1833 Rochdale, Lancashire, England
From 1851 census, oldest child is Elizabeth b. ~1837. Maybe one or two born before her, and working away from home or married by 1851? Census 1851 and 1861 name five sons and four daughters to Robert and Hannah......a son named Robert, after father..........should there be a daughter Hannah?
Can you see this family on 1841 census?
Is there a second marriage for Thomas HILL....death notice SMH 8 Jun 1918 has wife Margaret and daughter Ruby 20 Cleveland St.
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Here are Robert and Hannah in 1841
At LaneBottom?, Butterworth, Lancs - all born in county
Robert Hill 30, publican
Hannah Hill 25
Elizabeth Hill 4
Adam Hill 2
Alice Hill 5 Mo
Judith
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Here are Robert and Hannah in 1841
At LaneBottom?, Butterworth, Lancs - all born in county
Robert Hill 30, publican
Hannah Hill 25
Elizabeth Hill 4
Adam Hill 2
Alice Hill 5 Mo
Judith
H.i I know Hannah Chadwick's parents were Joseph & Ann - could not find an Edward born to them.
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It would be really helpful to have all the information on the marriage certificate 1864, better still, an image of the certificate.
FREEBDM
Edward CHADWICK m. Sarah BUCKLEY Sep Q 1850 Rochdale 21 / 613
Robert HILL, at 1918, gives 56 years in NSW for brother Thomas. If he said 50 I might think he was rounding a number. I would be guided by that information until you know otherwise...only reference you have to the arrival of Thomas in Australia, and no mention of Victoria. Thomas HILL is a very ordinary name, just needs a transcription error for him to be Thomas HALL/HALE etc. and not to be found in passenger list, if he ever was on a passenger list.
I cannot imagine that he would be sent alone to Australia as a 15 year old to establish a family enterprise?. If he came to Australia at that age I think he was travelling with relatives. If he travelled alone I think he is older than 15 at arrival.
IGA marriage
Robert HILL m. Hannah CHADWICK 8 Apr 1833 Rochdale, Lancashire, England
From 1851 census, oldest child is Elizabeth b. ~1837. Maybe one or two born before her, and working away from home or married by 1851? Census 1851 and 1861 name five sons and four daughters to Robert and Hannah......a son named Robert, after father..........should there be a daughter Hannah?
Can you see this family on 1841 census?
Is there a second marriage for Thomas HILL....death notice SMH 8 Jun 1918 has wife Margaret and daughter Ruby 20 Cleveland St.
Hi. Thomas remarried to Margaret Laverty after Elizabeth died in 1896.
I managed to get more info from the M/C - witnesses - Arthur Henry HUNT & Maria STYLES
Officiating minister - T. H. SHAW
Number of M/C - 288 . Reg # 1864/003130 Thomas - bachelor Elizabeth - spinster
That is ALL of the information on M/C - I contacted the Anglican Diocese of Gunnedah and they were unable to help as all those records pre-1900 were transferred to Sydney "somewhere".
As for older children - Elizabeth was born 1833/1834 and died 1834.
Joseph was born 1835 but died 1837 - therefor no surviving elders pre-1837
cheers - MB
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I believe the young Thomas arrived to take up the position as Engineer on the wool scourer he may have had some prior training in it's operation in England, even at only 15 years old. He could then have worked at this until he moved to NSW where he married in 1862 at Gunnedah. In fact his position at Gunnedah may well have been at the time still working for the same company.
With the family of Chadwicks arriving same time they may have been connected to the Manufacturing somehow? Finding the connection to Edward Chadwick seems a priority? There is no real reason why this family was in England at the time of the 1851 census in fact they could have been in Australia and returned to England.
I am interested though as to why a young Thomas secured a position as a start up Engineer for this wool scourer?
Neil
MODIFIED TO ADD....Muzzy could you cease copying all the posts to your answers it makes the whole thing long and tedious and is unneccesary. TA Neil
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Neil, if the family recollection is correct then Thomas may not have been the start-up engineer, rather helping with or just looking at the set-up. He is on the immi record as a labourer. It's a pity that I can't make out his father's occupation on the 1851 census; by 1861 he says he is a book-keeper.
I am not seeing an Edward CHADWICK (that I can be sure of) of the right age on any English site prior to the immigration in 1857. I note the marriage posted by Wivenhoe and there are others in Lancashire which are possibles - and do we know that Edward CHADWICK and his family were from Lancashire?
Judith
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Hi
The occupation of Robert Hill in 1851 census is possibly Schoolmaster. Some of the childrens baptisms are on LancashireOPC, the fathers occupation is Weaver for the first few, then Beer Seller for Thomas, back to Weaver for John Hill in 1844 and finally Schollmaster for Ann Hill in 1847. The later children are not on LancashireOPC.
Whilst the 1857 arrival for the Suffolk fits the age of Thomas there were about 60 registrations a year of the name Thomas Hill around 1842 (and no doubt more not registered) so whilst it is a possibility it is far from probable. I think you need to be cautious about concentrating on this Thomas too much unless you can connect the Chadwick family on the Suffolk to Hannah.
Andy
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From the OP.
Anyone help me find info on Thomas HILL from when he landed at Port Phillip Bay on the Suffolk in 1857 as a 15y/o, to marrying Elizabeth HUNT in Gunnedah 1864?
He was born in Rochdale 1842 to Robert HILL & Hannah CHADWICK.
I found a 20y/o Thomas HILL crewman on the Aladdin whaling voyager arriving in NSW from Tasmania 1862, but don't know if it's him(nationality Tasmanian).
Cheers Murray
Maybe we could all get a little more from MURRAY? The dribble of information needs to be turned a little further on and this would save us all going over a lot of family history already in the hands of the OP.
2nd quote from MURRAY
"Thanks Debra & JM - all those details have been noted for reference" Do you mean Murray that all these details are at hand?
Also what someone was doing for a period of 5 years in the early colonial days is practically impossible to find, unless 1. they ran foul of the law or 2 made advertisements in newspapers or 3 passed away or married or had children?
Neil ???
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Neil, you are quite correct - it is most unlikely that anything will be found for Thomas prior to his marriage.
However, I think we have established most of the relevant information for Thomas in UK - parents, grandparents, siblings. There may, or may not, be a connection with the CHADWICK family who arrived on the Suffolk which also carried a Thomas HILL. I would have thought it unlikely that muzzy would have many more details. There is very little extra on public trees.
Judith
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Hi Judith, No more info....I did try and find a connection back in England, but Edward Chadwicks are a little thick on the ground, the Tom Jones of Lancashire :P
Will see what Murray thinks?
Neil
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Sorry forgot to mention a find that may or may not tie in with this whole saga. On the 1881 census there is a Edward Chadwick in a Workhouse as a pauper widower in Lancashire. His occupation is listed a Screw and Bolt Manufacturer. This as I said earlier may tie him to a Wool Scourer as he would be an Engineer (Engineering Manufacturer). His birth is down as 1825 and age 56 so he is very close to the one on the one on the Suffolk in age?
Neil
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Sorry if I've made this thread tedious for you - I'm still trying to get used to using this wonderful site. I want to thank all those who've contributed in attempting to find out how my Thomas HILL got here to Aus. I've resigned myself to the fact that I now have all the information on him that I'm going to get. One thing that bothered me more than others is the fact that right through his married life and up to his death his occupation was for the most part a Real Estate Agent [house agent] - a far cry from the line of an Engineer.
P.S On his son Adam's birth certificate (1879) his occupation was Auctioneer.
cheers MB
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Not at all, muzzy. I've certainly enjoyed the chase. It's good to have a search to get one's teeth into ;D
Judith
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Hey Murray, don't apologise you are a "NEWBIE" on Rootschat :D That's just me in my usual jackboot way :-[ Tedious was probably the wrong word, it must always be born in mind that a lot of the more experienced Rctrs have more than one post going at a time and it makes it more difficult to get to the point if there is a lot in each reply.
Your first post with your question should be the longest, with every bit of info you can think of. Then the replies will be more to the point and get to the answers much quicker.
It has been interesting, lets hope you are more advanced in your family tree.
Neil
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Thanks - that's very helpful info - I'll know in future to come out with ALL the details I have on the subject instead of having you guys trying to second guess everything, and search for some details that I already have. P.S. I've just learnt how to "reply" to the various posts to speed things up.
Here's looking forward to my next search with you ;D
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My interest in my family tree is starting to get the better of me again after some time away it as I found difficult to know where to look and sorting out who is who? From what has been discussed is an interesting read, even if I am coming in real late.
This Thomas Hill is my g.g.g.father I have a copy of his death cert. Elizabeths death cert. Adams birth, marriage and death cert's with my grandfathers (Thomas) death cert as well.
We are having a family reunion in April and I would like to have a Tree that other relatives can add their relevant info to what I have. Thomas Hill and his father Robert (1811-1879) are far as I can go without getting totally lost, I think Robert's father is Adam 1782-1842 not really sure after that I have no clue. My tree is;
Adam Hill 1782-1842???
Robert Hill 1811-1879
Thomas Hill 1842-1918
Adam Hill 1879-1952
Thomas Hill 1907-1985
Barry Hill 1941-living
Gordon Hill 1963-living
Nathanael Hill 1987-living
Jasper Hill 2018-living
Just how do find out for sure if Adam (1782) is Roberts father and also to see if I can go back further in history.
Thanks,
Gordon