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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: jimmain on Wednesday 12 March 14 20:28 GMT (UK)
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I recently reviewed the testament of Robert Salmond, Balquhatstone farm Slamannan, 1777. It states that his parents were Patrick Salmond/ Ann Baird, and that he was the only son. However, I found Patrick Salmond/ Ann Baird married 1757, Slamannan, and in IGI, they had Patrick 1758, William 1763 and Agnes 1765. This is obviously confusing, as Robert would have been a young man, born about 1760. The Waddells owned Balquhatstone for many years, and about 1650, George Waddell 5th of Balquhatstone, married Christian Salmond. There were numerous Salmond portioners of Balquhatstone, beginning with Johne Salmond 1598; Christian Salmond, (wife of George Waddell of Balquhatstone) 1663; Peter Salmond 1671; Johne Salmond 1674; Robert Salmond 1685, and Elizabeth Salmond, daughter of Robert 1685. I would appreciate any help with the Balquhatsone Salmonds. My particular interest is the Main connection. David Main married Elizabeth Salmond 1741. John Salmond married Jean Main about 1742. Finally, in Robert Salmond’s testament, in which there is an extensive inventory of both home and farm items, he bequeaths farm implements to David Main and John Main.
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Jim, I think the First Minister's Salmond's are from the Slammanan area?
Skoosh.
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You're right. The furthest back I could go was to Peter Salmond/ Isabel Boyd who had their children in Slamannan, the First Minister's forbears. I'm not sure how they fit in with the line of Salmonds I'm researching who were at Balquhatstone (Slamannan).
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There seem to have been two couples of those names, one in the 1690s and the other in the 1770s to 1790s. Which one is the First Minister descended from?
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Christian Salmond, daughter of (possibly) Patrick Salmond in (not of) Balquhatstone, married George Waddell of Balquhatstone in July 1661. They had one son, Patrick, and Christian died in 1663. There is a testament dative to this effect.
The index to the Register of Sasines is not very informative. It mentions Robert S, portioner of Balwhatston and his relict Elizabeth Manuel, who were married on 25 September 1681. (Robert must have died not long afterwards because Elizabeth married Robert Howie, portioner of Easter Glentore, on 16 May 1686 and became my 6th-great-grandmother.) The relevant sasine is (RS42) VIII.86, which is between 1685 and 1688. I probably have a copy of it, filed under 'illegible'.
Peter Salmond of Whitrig, formerly in Balwhatston, is mentioned in (RS42) VIII.106 and 301, which are from the same period.
Peter Salmon of Balquhatstan is mentioned in (RS42) XIII.376 (1721-1729)
Various other Salmon(d)s who may or may not be connected
John S and Patrick S in Whitsyd (RS42) VIII.300 (1685-1866)
John S of Whiteside (Whitsyd), son of Patrick S, portioner of West Craigs, (RS42) XIV.528 (bis); XV.189; XVIII.103; XX.43 and Jean Main his spouse, daughter of William M of Meadowhead (RS42) XIV.528 (bis); XX.43. (1729-1778)
Peter S of Whin and his son, also Peter (RS42) XIII.339 (1721-1729)
Patrick S, portioner of West Craig (in Craigs) (RS42) XIV.528 (bis); XV.189 (1729-1745) features in some of the same sasines as John above.
William S in Auchengria (RS40) IVA.350; (RS42) II.126; XII.90 (1631-1719) looks unlikely in fact to be the same person throughout, but XII.90 and William S in Auchengray (RS42) XIV.518 (1729-1745) may be the same person.
William S in Whyteside (RS42) XIII.619 (1721-1729)
A word of explanation. The Sasines are gathered in volumes, which are numbered in Roman numerals. The Arabic numbers are the page on which the particular sasine starts.The dates I have added in brackets are the year of the start of the first volume and the year of the end of the last volume containing the named person(s). Vol XIV, for instance, runs from 2 July 1729 to 8 Feb 1745. You need to get the original document to get the exact dates.
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Alex Salmond’s gggggggrandfather was Peter, born 1704, Slamannan to Peter Salmond/ Isabel Boyd (m 1770 Slamannan). Peter had two sisters, Jane 1690, and Kathrine 1697. Peter married Agnes Russell 1736 Slamannan. Alex Salmond’s great-great-great grandfather, John, born 1781, continued to live in Slamannan for the early part of his life, and like his forefathers, he worked the land, as a ploughman and a labourer. By 1841 when the first Census records emerge, he has moved his family a few miles east to the West Lothian village of Torphichen, where his 13-year-old son, John, has left to live with another farmer as a farm hand.
I recently reviewed a testament of Robert Salmond of Balquhatstone, 1777. It states that he was the only son of Patrick Salmond of Balquhatstone and Ann Baird. Ann Baird’s father was John Baird, Muckroft. Robert’s daughter Agnes was married to John Ingles (Inglis). A place called New-fel-dyk was mentioned, but I am not sure of the context. There were bequests made to the following people: James Shaw; John Hastie; John Rankin; David Main; John Hay; Archibald Stuart; Robert Arthur; John Miller; Allan Arthur; John Main; John Waddell; ?James Steel; George Waddel; John Ingles; John Russell; Matthew Steel; Edward Heggan?; Andrew Storie?; Agnes Dick; James
Shaw.
Myrla Birch a Salmond descendant who lives in Sasakachewan Canada wrote two books: "The Salmonds: where we came from and where we are now! 1736-1998", and "Alex Salmond: Cattle Dealer". See the following link: http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=2248
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A couple of questions related specifically to the sasine information you've provided:
1. Elizabeth Salmond married Robert Howie 1686. I have a Susanna Howie born 1692 married to John Gartshore 1712, New Monkland. Is Susanna the daughter of Robert/ Elizabeth Salmond?
2. John Salmond, Whiteside, married to Jean Main, daughter of William Main, Meadowhead.
Is Jean the daughter of William Main/ Janet Roberton who married 1711, New Monkland. Witnesses at their marriage: John Main of Ballochney & Matthew Roberton of Shank. William and Janet lived at Meadowhead farm, next to Ballochney farm. They had the following children at Meadowhead farm: John 1713; Janet 1714 (William Forrest); William 1717; Agnes 1718; Agnes 1719; Jean 1721; Ann 1723 (Andrew Thomson); Agnes 1724; Mary 1726; Margaret 1728; Elizabeth 1730; John 1734.
The other possibility is William who married Janet Waddell 1749 and had their children at Ballochney, near Meadowhead? They had a daughter Jean born 1757.
Would you have access to that sasine, as it would be an important one for my research?
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A couple of questions related specifically to the sasine information you've provided:
1. Elizabeth Salmond married Robert Howie 1686. I have a Susanna Howie born 1692 married to John Gartshore 1712, New Monkland. Is Susanna the daughter of Robert/ Elizabeth Salmond?
I don't know - but I wish I did!
2. John Salmond, Whiteside, married to Jean Main, daughter of William Main, Meadowhead.
Is Jean the daughter of William Main/ Janet Roberton who married 1711, New Monkland.
I do not know.
The other possibility is William who married Janet Waddell 1749 and had their children at Ballochney, near Meadowhead? They had a daughter Jean born 1757.
Would you have access to that sasine, as it would be an important one for my research?
Which sasine do you mean?
I don't have access to any sasines without going to General Register House. I do have access to some of the indexes to the Registers of sasines.
There are no sasines in the 1720-1781 Lanarkshire index mentioning William Main and Janet Waddell.
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The sasine in which I was particularly interested was the following:
John S of Whiteside (Whitsyd), son of Patrick S, portioner of West Craigs, (RS42) XIV.528 (bis); XV.189; XVIII.103; XX.43 and Jean Main his spouse, daughter of William M of Meadowhead (RS42) XIV.528 (bis); XX.43. (1729-1778)
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Ah.
That's actually five different sasines, three of which mention Jean Main.
I don't have access to the original documents - you'd have to get print-outs from the National Records of Scotland.
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Elizabeth Salmond married Robert Howie 1686. I have a Susanna Howie born 1692 married to John Gartshore 1712, New Monkland. Is Susanna the daughter of Robert/ Elizabeth Salmond?
It's actually Elizabeth Manuel, widow of Robert Salmon(d), who married Robert Howie. Not Elizabeth Salmon(d) - Salmon(d) was only her temporary first married surname.
Susanna's husband John Gartshore was the son of John Gartshore and Elizabeth Wood. Their first two sons were both named John, then there was a Robert. Assuming the first John died in infancy, that might hint at Susanna's father's name was Robert. Their eldest daughter was Elizabeth, which might hint at her mother's name being Elizabeth, but the water is muddied because his mother was also Elizabeth. There are further complcations because in some of the baptism records her name is given as Ann(e) instead of Susanna.
Do you have a reliable date of birth for Susanna, or have you found it somewhere online, or is it a guesstimate based on her being married in 1712?
The problem is that (Sus)anna Howie, wife of John Gartshore, is not mentioned in the indexes to the Registers of Sasines, but there are four children of Robert Howie and Elizabeth Manuel mentioned. So if she was their daughter, why is she not included in sasines along with them?
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This is what I have re John Gartshore/ Elizabeth Wood, some from IGI, some from Gartshore family research, so obviously a little suspect:
John Gartshore married Elizabeth Wood 4July 1673, Kirkintilloch. They moved from Kirkintilloch to New Monkland after the marriage.
There is a sasine whereby John Gartshore (Elizabeth Wood) borrowed money from Alexander Gartshore of Gartshore in December 1688, bought Middle Blairlin a week later and had paid back Alexander Gartshore by 1694.
They had the following children in Blairlin: Agnes 1674 (John Rankin); Janet 1676; Elizabeth 1677; Mary 1679 (John Lang); Thomas 1681 (Agnes Findlay); James 1685; John 1690 (Susanna Howie).
John was the only one found in IGI.
Blairlinn farm no longer exists. This farm was actually three farms (East/Mid/West); Mid Blairlinn abutted Clayslap, located between Cumbernauld and Myvot. It was part of the Shaw’s holdings, later acquired by Robert Muirhead whose granddaughter’s daughter sold it in 1886. All the land in this area was originally part of the lands of Glentore with the superior being Hamilton’s then the Fleming’s.
In the late 17th and early 18th Century, a Sommerville family owned East Blairlinn but the family resided in Glasgow. Perhaps they portioned a parcel to the Cleland family who was farming there. However, by 1785, Easter Blairlinn was occupied by James Shaw; Clelands were at Mid Blairlinn, along with the Wotherspoon, Darnly and Paterson families.
John Gartshore died 1Jan 1714, Blairlinn farm, New Monkland.
I don't have a reliable date of birth for Susanna.
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Yes, looks like you have pretty much the same as me. I am not pursuing the earlier generations of Gartshores, as they are not related to me.
Susanna Howie may be related, so I am looking at her children, and I am definitely related to the children of her son Robert, because his mother-in-law was a Waddell of Stanrigg. This Robert was born at Middle Blairline in 1727.
Susanna's son John also married a Waddell, who may be a daughter of Alexander W and Elizabeth Martin, but we have yet to work out definitely where she fits in, if at all.
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The OPR entry (John Gartshore/ Susanna Howie) notes that the witnesses at the wedding were John Craig (the younger), Middle Blairlin, and William Thome, son of Robert Thome in Easter Glentore.
They had the following children at Blairlin farm: John 1714; Elizabeth 1717 (John Jack 1746); Jean 1719; John 1721 (Janet Waddell); Susanna 1724 (James Thom 1746); Robert 1727 (Mary Mochrie); Alexander 1730; John 1732-79 (Janet Waddell 1760); Joseph 1736.
Do you agree with the above? Jim
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I didn't have spouses for Elizabeth and Susanna, or John's death date, but apart from those, yes, I have the same information.
I have yet to look at all the baptisms to make sure they are all genuine. There is an online tree somewhere that says Susanna Howie died in 1734, which is clearly incompatible with her having Joseph in 1736.
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Bye
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As I think I have already said, I have not looked into the earlier generations of Gartshores because my possible connection is via Susanna Howie. Therefore I have no opinions on the antecedents of John Gartshore, or on the names of his siblings. I think he is the son of John G and Elizabeth Wood, baptised 11 May 1690 in the parish of Cumbernauld, but I am quite willing to be corrected if there is evidence to show that he was not this John Gartshore.
Susanna Howie (also in some records Anne or Anna Howie) married John Gartshore on 29 December 1712. I think it possible, if not likely, therefore, that she was born earlier than 1695. I am not certain who her parents were, but my 5th-great-grandfather Joseph Howie of Meikle Drumgray, who married Elizabeth Hay in Annathill on 29 July 1717, was a contemporary of Susanna/Anne Howie or Gartshore. Joseph's eldest son was Robert, so I speculate that Joseph and Susanna/Anne were related to or descended from Robert Howie, Portioner of Easter Glentore. He was the first of three Robert Howies, father, son and grandson. The son predeceased the father, because in a document dated 12 December 1710 the grandson is described as a minor, the only son and heir to the deceased Robert Howie younger of Glentore and grandson of Robert Howie there.
I am also related to later generations of Gartshores via Mary Mochrie, daughter of James Mochrie and Janet Waddell, who married Robert Gartshore, son of John G and Susanna/Anne Howie, in about 1752.
As for John G being born in Cumbernauld, there is no reason to think that he was. He was certainly baptised in Cumbernauld, and the original baptism record says, "John Gartshore son lawll to John Gartshore and Elizabeth having a testimony from East Monkland". Babies were sometimes baptised in a different parish, for example if the minister of their parents' home parish was absent or ill.
Blairlin has only been in the same local authority area as Cumbernauld since the reorganisation of local government in 1975, so this 'weird' fact is irrelevant, if not positively unhelpful, for purposes of historical or genealogical research.
I am very happy to exchange notes on the descendants of Robert Gartshore and Mary Mochrie, or to discuss the likely parentage of Susanna/Anne Howie or Gartshore, but for the present I have no reason to investigate the rest of the Gartshore family.