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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: chinka on Thursday 20 March 14 02:18 GMT (UK)
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She was charged at Stirling Court of Judiciary & transported to Australia on George Hibbert in 1834 arriving in 1835.She was said to be a native of Ayr.Does anyone have any info on any Lochie families during this time frame in these areas.
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Hi,
It is hard sometimes to research a convicts life before they arrived here. Not many convicts have their parents names noted on their death indexes.
14273/1898 ALDERS RUBENA UNKNOWN UNKNOWN KEMPSEY
BUT i did find this in the online indexes in the Scotland archives online.
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
Hope the link opens up ok for you. Maybe contact the archives and see how you could get a copy of the trial papers. The trial files sometimes have family info such as she was a orphan, or if she lived on the streets, or even if a family member stood up as a witness to defend her. OR the file could have nothing ;D
edited to add... I just tried the link ::) Once it opens up the top you will see "search", click on that and when that page opens just type her name in and the index should come up.
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OH! :o This is interesting, i think your Robina had a sister named Mary.
Robina Lochie, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty in terms of own confession - theft, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years. Note: Tried with Catharine Mitchell and Christian Cock. Tried in conjunction with Mary Martin or McDonald. Also Ann Stean. Pannel cannot write.
Mary McDonald, wife of William McDonald, hatter, m.s. Martin, Verdict: Outlawed, Verdict Comments: Outlaw and fugitive, Sentence: Outlawed and put to the horn. Note: Tried in conjunction with Catharine Mitchell, Christian Cock and Robina Lochie. Also Ann Stean. Later page in minute book.
Christian Cock, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty, art and part - theft, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years. Note: Tried with Robina Lochie and Catharine Mitchell. Tried in conjunction with Mary Martin or McDonald. Also Ann Stean.The Advocate Depute passed on the charge of habit and repute.
Catharine Mitchell, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty in terms of own confession - theft, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years. Note: Tried with Robina Lochie and Christian Cock. Tried in conjunction with Mary Martin or McDonald. Also Ann Stean. Pannel cannot write.
Ann Stean Not called. Note: Also with Robina Lochie, Catharine Mitchell, Christian Cock and Mary Martin or McDonald.
Then
Trial papers relating to Mary Henderson, Margaret Henderson for the crime of robbery, or theft, habit and repute, and assault. Tried at High Court, Stirling
Dates 15 Apr 1833
Mary Henderson, wife of Alexander Henderson, moulder, m.s. Lochie , Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty in terms of own confession - art and part - theft, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years. Note: Pannel cannot write.
Margaret Henderson, daughter of John Henderson, late miner, and Mary Henderson or Miller, sister to Alexander Henderson, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty in terms of own confession - theft, Sentence: Imprisonment - 9 months. Note: Pannel cannot write. Pannel to serve sentence in the jail of Stirling.
This Pannel person is mentioned in both trials as is the Lochie name.
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Think i made a idiot of myself :-[
I dont think Pannel is a person but maybe supposed to be the Panel as in those judging the trial ???
I need to find a rock to hide under about now ;D
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Hi Giblet,
Thanks for your reply.Robina Lochie was my ggg grandmother.She married a fellow convict Edward Alders .I have different spellings for his name also.Their daughter Sophia married William Hudson the son of convicts who lived in Kempsey NSW.I was aware that Robina changed her name to Rubena.On some of the childrens births cert she is Robina but changes it to Rubena as she gets older hence her death cert.I realize Pannel isnt a person.I have seen some paperwork before saying Robina couldnt read or write.I havent found anything on the surname Lochie at all.Some paperwork she is called Robin Lacklin( who knows). I think she is Scottish supposedly from Ayr.
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Hi Chinka,
What age do you think Robina was when she was transported?
And do her children's names offer any clues to her origins?
Looby :)
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Christina born 1843 ,Sophia born1850,Maria born 1852, Edward born 1854 .Rubena died 1898 so she was in Australia for 63years .I havent got a lot of info.Christina born as Aldridge with parents Robina & Edward. Sophia was born as Aldris parents Rebecca & Edward.(should be Rubena its Robina on her death cert).Maria born as Aldris parents Rubena & Edward .Edward born as Aldris Parents Rubena & Edward .This family is a nightmare to trace.My Aunt found all these different names.But it is the same family.
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Ah... That is interesting that her first daughter is called Christina.
There are two people on the 1841 Census living at Alloa, Clackmannanshire at a place called Farm of Ditch (sounds lovely!)
William Lochie aged 55 Farmer born Clackmannanshire
Christian Lochie aged 35 born outside Census County
There are 2 female servants Janet McLachlan (20) and Janet Ferguson (15 with them.
There is nothing on the 1841 to give the relationship between the couple (i.e. husband/wife, father/daughter etc).
Just thought I'd bring them to your attention as Alloa is approx. 7 miles , I think from Stirling and the name Christian (Christina).
Where do you have the suggestion that Robina was from Ayr?
Looby :)
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Don't know about that couple now :-[
Think they are man and wife and married in 1827. So too late to be parents of Robina -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTLL-SLS.
Of course William could have been married before?? (Grasping at straws)
It would still be interesting to know where the reference to Ayr comes in to the story.
Looby
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My Aunt had it written in documentation Robina was from Ayr.I will get in touch with her & find out exactly what info she has & get back to you.What does it mean in the court proceedings m.s. Lochie next to Mary Henderson.It seems Stirling is a long way from Ayr in my calculations.I havent found the name Lochie before.What are its origins.If this family were related & had servants why would Robina need to steal.I havent found a marriage for Robina so dont know if she was single when transported.Thanks,
Chinka
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NSW SRO CONVICT INDEXES http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/collection-search
I wonder if there’s a connection between Robina/Rubena LOCHIE and Mary LOCHRIE, (alias Mary CLANCY, so perhaps Mary was wife of a Mr CLANCY ) tried Glasgow CJ, ex the George HIBBERT of 1834, T of L Braidwood District 43/638, CP 1 March 1848, (CP 48/762).
Cheers, JM
She was charged at Stirling Court of Judiciary & transported to Australia on George Hibbert in 1834 arriving in 1835.She was said to be a native of Ayr.Does anyone have any info on any Lochie families during this time frame in these areas.
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My aunt has info saying Robina was from Ayrshire,but doesnt say whereabouts.She was 18yrs when transported.She married Edward Alders in 1836 .He was from Leith ,Scotland .He was transported on Eliza 1 in 1819 when he was 18 yrs old .They had 11 children.10 daughters .Margaret was the eldest born 1837,Sarah b 1838,Ann b 1840 ,Jane b 1841,Christina b 1843,Agnes b 1845 ,Helen b 1847,Sophia b 1850,Maria b 1854 and Edward b 1855 then Amelia 1856 . There is that many different spellings of the names. Four different spellings of the surname Alders . I am sure Maria was pronounced Mariah with emphasis on the I like Mariah Carey the singer.
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Robina /Rubena Lochie /Lockie whichever way her name was spelt was illiterate .She wouldnt have known how to spell her name.She signed with a cross.Who really knows how her surname is spelt.I have found that many different spellings of her maiden & married surnames each of her children spell it differently.I really dont know what her name really is.
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What does it mean in the court proceedings m.s. Lochie next to Mary Henderson.
m.s = maiden surname
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As you say, Chinka, spellings were fluid and not relevant really in those days.
I have seen other sources which quote Robina's birth place as being Edinburgh (New South Wales, Australia, Gaol Description and Entrance Books, 1818-1930)
However, another database (Australian Convict Index, 1788-1868) quotes Ayrshire.
Monica :)
Added: Can't see anything for a birth/christening for her (or a Mary) on the index here www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk On one of the convict databases, her religion is given as Presbyterian which can be easier to find records for in this period, rather than Roman Catholic for example. However, not helping here :-\
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So we have Robina Lochie being born about 1814-15 who was charged with Mary Henderson whose maiden name was Lochie.Maybe her sister or some other relation .of sorts.And she may have been born in Edinburgh.At least we have something as her parents names arent on her death certificate.I now know she was Scottish.I ve made some headway.
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In court proceedings what does tried and put to the horn mean.
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Details of Scottish criminal cases (where available) can be searched for here www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
The trial of Mary Henderson/Lochie was some months earlier on 15 Apr 1833 (ref JC26/1833/258). For Mary there is also a reference to 'precognition' (gathering and documenting of evidence prior to trial) which states:
Margaret Henderson, daughter of John Henderson, late miner, and Mary Henderson or Miller, sister to Alexander Henderson, Age: 18, Address: New Sauchie, Clackmannanshire, with mother
Mary Henderson, wife of Alexander Henderson, moulder, m.s. Lochie, Address: New Sauchie, Clackmannanshire, with husband
Given the location/timing etc., don't know if we can connect Mary and Robina at this stage :-\
Robina's shows on 12 Sep 1833 (ref JC26/1833/362). Couldn't see a precognition for her.
chinka, have a search on the Catalogue. Relatively easy to navigate. The spelling of the surname I used was Lochie (there might be further details under variants).
Monica
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In court proceedings what does tried and put to the horn mean.
Sorry, missed your question. 'put to the horn' I believe just means outlawed. See Chambers Dictionary: Put to the horn: (obs. Scots law) to outlaw by three blasts of the horn at the Cross of Edinburgh http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Chambers%27s_Twentieth_Century_Dictionary_1908/Holywell_Hurry
Monica
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There must have been a family of Lochies at Clackmananshire living there in 1833.see Mary & Margaret Henderson some connection to Lochie.
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Hi again,
The reason I quizzed you on the location of Ayr as being Robina's birthplace was Alloway/ Alloa ???
Had wondered if there could have been a mix up on Australian certs between the 2 places.
Then again it could still have happened by word of mouth :-\ over the years.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby :)
Warming up to Clackmannanshire for Robina ;) It is a pity that there doesn't seem to be a precognition document to be found so far. We need all the info we can get at this stage on Robina. This document may have had more personal info on her.
I started to try and see if we could find anything further on the women who were also charged and transported with Robina, given they acted together, thought they might be from the same place.
Apart from Robina, tried were:
Christian Cock - transported
Catherine Mitchell - transported
Mary Martin or McDonald - not sure what happened with Mary
Ann Stean - looks like charges were dropped?
I think Christian Cock shows on Convict registers in NSW as being born in 1813 in Clackmannan and then Gallowayshire ( :-\ different counties).
Monica
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Hi Monica.
Already been looking at the other girls/ladies.
There is a Christian Duncan Cock born in Alloa 1812 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKQ-4RP. Wonder if this could be the girl in the dock with Robina,
Looby :)
Amended- Spelled the Surname Cox when it should have been Cock ! Sorry!! I could crack a joke but I won't.
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I have found that when doing family history there are many discrepancies.In spelling of names,of people & places.My Irish great grandfather was born in a place that doesnt exist.But it is well documented here in Australia.I think I have found a likely place sounding similiar with similiar spelling.But no one previously researching has found our family yet.I think different accents make the spelling of certain places difficult especially if those involved were illiterate.Well I do know I have a celtic background.
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Marriage of a Mary Martin to a William McDonald in Alloa, Clackmannashire in 1833 which would fit https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTLL-QHC
Monica
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My Aunt had it written in documentation Robina was from Ayr.I will get in touch with her & find out exactly what info she has & get back to you.What does it mean in the court proceedings m.s. Lochie next to Mary Henderson.It seems Stirling is a long way from Ayr in my calculations.I havent found the name Lochie before.What are its origins.If this family were related & had servants why would Robina need to steal.I havent found a marriage for Robina so dont know if she was single when transported.Thanks,
Chinka
Just realised we hadn't addressed your query re the 2 servants with the Lochie couple, chinka.
More than likely these women would be farm workers helping the farmer Robert Lochie on the land. I don't think the Lochie would be rich people with personal servants.
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RE: Mary Lochie - Henderson
Mary Lochie
Aliases Henderson (Alias)
Stirling Court of Justiciary
Sentence term 7 years
Ship Amphitrite
Departure date 21st August, 1833
Arrival date 21st April, 1834
Place of arrival New South Wales
There isnt much to check out from the Australian side for her as they never arrived. They were shipwrecked.
http://artuccino.com/Allan_Cunningham_Botanist_1839/index.php/31st-august-1833/
Edited to add more..
Less often still did the crimes of woman involve violence, like the robbery of four pounds and four shillings committed by Mary Lochie and Margaret Henderson. The charge was that " they did wickedly and feloniously attack and assult Alexander Wright, feuar [land tenant] and weaver, residing in Alloa by striking him one or more blows with a iron poker and did knock him to the ground and otherwise maltreat him. In her defense Lochie claimed that Wright deserved the beating. Drunk after dowing more than a mutchkin [ and imperial pint] of whiskey, he had tried to enter her bed and she struck him in defense of her virture. Unfortunately Henderson, Lochie's sister in law, didnt corrobrate the story. Lochie got seven years transportation. Henderson got nine months in prison.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uYC-X01xa4EC&pg=PT81&lpg=PT81&dq=convict+lochie&source=bl&ots=X0EsvyD1ud&sig=pOYSZnXvbNBs0T-nRlr0034CBGY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7SorU-_tIYSckAXV74G4Cg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=convict%20lochie&f=false
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Heck...shipwrecked :-\ Well, that likely stops that line of enquiry.
There are so few Lochies in Clackmannan (in fact, it is an uncommon surname in Scotland, even with the possible variants, such as Lockie, Leckie etc.).
I wonder if we could get an age from any of the convict indexes, to at least try to place her on a possible timeline?
Monica
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Poor Mary Lochie - a watery grave :o! She didn't deserve that.
I agree with you Monica - Lochie and variants was not terribly common at that time. Loch was more common.
Looby
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There was also a James Lockie.
Found him in the Scotland archives, i wont post the details but he can be found on the below link.
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
Also found this.
James Lockie
Aliases: Lochie (Alias)
Jedburgh Court of Justiciary
Sentence term Life
Ship Vittoria
Departure date 26th August, 1828
Arrival date 26th April, 1829
Place of arrival New South Wales
Edited.. At last a age for one of them, not that it helps any at the moment. I think this fella was a fair bit older than the others maybe.
Lockie (or Lochie) James Vittoria 1829 1829 -
Age 43. Stocking maker and soldier from Roxburgh. Tried 24 April 1828 and sentenced to transportation for life for stabbing a man. Assigned to R.A. Rodd at Newcastle on arrival
http://www.jenwilletts.com/searchaction.php
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Lockie (or Lochie) James Vittoria 1829 1829 -
Age 43. Stocking maker and soldier from Roxburgh. Tried 24 April 1828 and sentenced to transportation for life for stabbing a man. Assigned to R.A. Rodd at Newcastle on arrival
http://www.jenwilletts.com/searchaction.php
I cant find anything in the newspapers about him stabbing a man, i did find a article but he was charged with something else. Maybe the jenwilletts site has a error.
Im just trying to find something to connect any of these other names to Robina.
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Thanks everyone for the wonderful help.Robina was 19 years old in 1835 when she married Edward Alders in Australia so she was born abt 1815 -1816 .I could never find anyone with the Lochie surname.She is called Lockie on her marriage cert.What is the origin of the surname.
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Hi chinka,
It's possible the name Lochie came originally from the name Lachlan/Lauchlin.
It's interesting that you mention earlier that Robina has been recorded as Robin Lacklin. Her pronunciation of her name would lead to varied spelling.
Looby :)
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Hi everybody, Robina and Edward were my ggg grand parents, their daughter Sophia married William Hudson, who had a daughter Maude Hudson , who had a son Stanley wheeldon, the father of my mother.. cheers..
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Hi it seems we are cousins.If you can put 2 more posts on this site .I can send you a personal msg with my email address.Sophia &William were my gggrandparents also .Thanks Chinka
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Hi it seems we are cousins.If you can put 2 more posts on this site .I can send you a personal msg with my email address.Sophia &William were my gggrandparents also .Thanks Chinka
Hi Chinka, thanks for that, would love to hear the connection .
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Also chinka if you are also on the Hudson line we had a great family reunion 5 years ago and a great book was published...( 2 extra posts complete, hope that does it)
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I have the book both volumes.I ve been to 2 reunions.Missed the last one 2 years ago .
Chinka
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I ve sent you a personal message.
Hope it goes through using my ph.
Found your grandfather in my book
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Hi to all.
I'm not sure how old this thread is... or if anyone who commented previously still checks here but....
I'm also searching info on Robina (Rubena) Lockie/Lochie married Edward Alders.
I have found some additional info to add to your thread.
In the trial transcripts Robina states she is 15, her father was William a Multurer (collects grain tax) and he was deceased at time of her trial. She also states she was residing with her sister Janet Lochie in Alloa. And prior to being apprehended she had visited her other sister who was being held at the Tolbooth in Stirling. (prision)
I searched prisoners in Stirling in 1833 around her trial dates and the only one matching I found was Mary Lochie alias Henderson.
Mary Lochie in court the panel refused to acknowledge her alias. From what I can find Mary sentenced to 7 years transportation on the Amphitrite
I see from an earlier comment someone had found the extract from the book Horrible Shipwreck. Which does speak of Mary's crime.
Robina had previously committed a crime and spent 2 months in jail in 1832?
When she arrived here (just off the ship) she was assigned to Hannah Goodsir of Botany as a house servant. She remained in her employ for a few months until 15th July 1835 when Sydney Police took her to Darlinghurst Goal where she was classed as a class 3 convict. I'm not sure exactly of her crime but I think it had something to do with absconding or at least not returning in a timely manner to her employer. From the Goal she was taken back to Parramatta female factory.
From there she was sent to Port Macquarie Female factory.
She married Edward Alders who by then was a free man in Port Macquarie.
I am currently transcribing a medical page from a DR's journal for the time she was sick while on board the George Hibbert.
Christine