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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: dragonlady403 on Sunday 30 March 14 21:28 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am going around in circles here.
George Ainslie (B 1814, St Cuthberts, Midlothian) Married (Dec 10 1836) Ann Oughton and had a couple (that I know of and are confirmed) daughters Janet and Margaret.
In 1851 his wife Anne is living with her mother and two daughters. No sign of George and she eventually marries one of her mother's workers David Neil in 1852.
George seems to have disappeared. There is a George Ainslie in Kentucky who marries a Mary Thirwell in 1844. He dies in Kentucky in 1878. But I have not been able to confirm if this is the same George.
If he lived and emigrated he would likely have left Scotland for the States sometime before 1851 (or even prior to 1844 if it is the correct person).
I am not sure if George and Ann would have divorced? Perhaps he wanted to go to the States and Anne decided to stay in Scotland with their two daughters? Or whether he died in Scotland and she simply moved in with her mother as a result.
Any assistance with either a death certificate, or immigration records or another avenue I might pursue would be very much appreciated!
Thanks in advance, Carol
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Hi Carol
Why do you think that father George may have disappeared? The 1851 census shows wife Ann as widowed:
Margaret Oughton 55 Inkeeper & Farmr 100 Ac Emp 5, widowed b. Lasswade
Anne Ainslie 35 daughter, Farmers Daughter, widowed b. Lasswade
Gavin Oughton 25
Robert Oughton 24
Margaret Ainslie 13 granddaughter b. Roslin
Janet Ainslie 11 granddaughter b. Roslin
Margaret Mcivor 22
David Neil 21
Robert Stedment 18
James Liddle 13
Thomas Stracham 21
Address: College Hill Roslin Inn, Lasswade
Monica :)
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As an aside...in case you haven't seen it. Anne's mother, Margaret's Inventory entry after her death:
Margaret OUGHTON 2 March 1863 MRS, alias WILSON, Relict of JAMES OUGHTON, Farmer and Innkeeper at Roslin - INVENTORY EDINBURGH SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES SC70/1/115
Monica
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I am not sure if George and Ann would have divorced?
Very unlikely. See http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/divorce/
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Why do you think that father George may have disappeared?
Maybe Carol is using one of the transcription web sites that don't include all the relevant information?
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Hi Monica - I had most of that information you listed EXCEPT the part about her being widowed! It seemed highly unlikely they would have divorced in that day and age.
Thanks very much for that. Saves me a lot of time and energy and I can now focus on the actual family rather than the "possible" family. Much appreciated.
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Thank for that link Forfarian. I knew it was a long shot, but was having much success anywhere else.
Regards, Carol
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Glad you are there! Divorce in those days was next to impossible...and so expensive and legally difficult to arrange.
Have looked on the Scotlands People database for death/burials (pre 1855 database). Cannot see anything for Ann's husband, George Ainslie, unfortunately. Nor can I see anything on the Wills & Testaments database.
Monica
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I know that's what has me worried. I keep wondering if he just took off and she called herself a widow. Keep hoping a death cert will turn up for him somewhere.
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If he died before 1851, there is no possibility of a death certificate ever turning up, because statutory civil registration did not start until 1855. The best you could hope for would be a mention of a payment for hire of a mortcloth in the minutes of the kirk session.
The kirk session minutes are in the National Records of Scotland. They have been digitised, but are not available online (yet?) so you would need either to hire a searcher or to get someone who is planning a visit there to look at them on your behalf.
As for her lying about being a widow
- she was living with her mother and two brothers in 1851
- she was living in the parish where she was born
- her mother kept the local inn so most of the parish would know, or know of, the family
- if her husband had simply absconded, it would have been the talk of the parish
- the enumerator was almost certainly resident in the parish and would be aware of local gossip
- she would have had to get her mother to lie, because her mother, as head of the household, was responsible for giving the information to the enumerator
She could hardly have married her mother's employee from her mother's home if she were still married, unless her husband had disappeared more than seven years previously and she had gone to court to have him declared legally dead. This too would have been difficult and costly in the 1850s.
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If he died before 1855, and it looks likely given wife's marital status in 1851, then it was before the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855. You are unlikely to find a death or burial entry in the Old Parish Registers. Only about a third of events were recorded in the Old Parish Registers before 1855, and records of deaths and burials were not great - see www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&1353
....However, I can see one death showing on the OPR database for a George Ainslie in Lasswade in 1847. Have you viewed this to discount it? Remember, OPR entries are not like entries in the statutory registers. You may find it is no more than a one liner. Personal details such as spouse's name were very seldom included and I don't think I have ever seen any mention of the parents' names for the deceased.
Monica :)
Added: Sorry, Forfarian, missed your last post until I posted this.
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Added: Sorry, Forfarian, missed your last post till I posted this.
No worries, we are singing off the same hymn sheet :)
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Hi Forfarian/Monica -
Thanks for all that information!! I will see what I can do about the "Kirk" records in a separate post. I am still learning about the various options available in Scotland as I have been working in the English/NZ records up to now.
Forfarian - I take your point about everyone knowing everyone in a small community. That being said, I think my caution here is somewhat founded in that one of Anne's grand-daughter's in NZ was a) supposed to be married b) had two daughters under the "husband's name".
As it turned out she had never married and her two daughters were registered under her maiden name. But in that case they moved from the South to North Island and simply "assumed" her common-law spouses name. This was a well kept secret until I started ferreting around in ancestry a few months back.
Anne married George in 1836
She had Margaret in 1838 and Janet in 1839 (George was obviously around then)
She didn't remarry David until 1852 and her family seem to have had some means given her mother's business.
That being said, the listing for a death for a George Ainslie in 1847 seems most probable since they were from Lasswade. I will continue to pursue that.
Thanks again to you both for all the information/assistance!
Regards, Carol
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Carol, Scottish records are some of the best in the world. Ask here always when something puzzles. People on RC have such a wide range of experience and knowledge which always blows me away.
A few help posts here on Scottish Research. Also, lots generally available online by googling. On RC:
The Scottish Way of Birth and Death... www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=578172.0 Covering the period post the start of official registration 1855-1939
Lots of specific links by County here on RC. Just look to the top of the page of that county.
Many resources and links for the whole of Scotland provided by RC members here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=367.0
Just checking. You have the 1841 census entry for George, Ann and their daughters?
Monica :)
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You folks are GEMS!! Yes I will spend some time trying to get up to speed on the various resources and how to use them. Personally I think it will require a trip back to Scotland in the not too distant future --- just to get a real feel for it all you know:)
Yes I have the 1841 Census and seem to be back on the right track (after a botched side trip to the USA!).
I also went to Scotslandspeople and printed off the OPR for George.. precious little info on it, but I did learn both date of death and age at death which helped.
He was in his 40's when he married Ann Oughton.. I wonder if it was his 2nd marriage?
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Carol, just adding the 1841 entry here for background for others:
Geo Ainslie 45 farmer https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRG-TJC
Ane Ainslie 25
Mary Ainslie 3 should this be Margaret https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRP-FRP*
Janet Ainslie 1 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRP-2F9
Janet Ainslie 84...is this George's mother?
Elenora Ainslie 20...do you know who Elenora is?
Mary Ross
Address: Moat, Lasswade
* Sometimes Marg. is transcribed in error as Mary
There was also a daughter Ann born after the 1841 census it seems https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRP-FVM
Monica
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Hi Monica - I have printed that info off, and was trying to figure out the Mary/Margaret situation. I will put one name in brackets.
I wasn't sure if Janet (age 84 would be George's Mother or Grandmother).
Yes I picked up the daughter Ann born 1841 from that census.
I am wondering if Elenora would be a daughter from a previous marriage? He was already in his 40's when he married Ann Oughton.
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Not sure how deep you want to go into records (that cost money :-\) but some Will & Testament entries to follow up on at some point.
George's father William I would guess:
William AINSLIE 3 Nov. 1830. Farmer at Moat, near Roslin. Inventory; Disposition ; Settlement EDINBURGH SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES SC70/1/43
Ann's father:
James OUGHTON 4 June 1834. Innkeeper and Farmer at Roslin. Inventory; Trust Disposition; Settlement. EDINBURGH SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES SC70/1/50
Monica
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Hi all,
Interestingly there is an Elenora Ainslie born to a William Ainslie and a Margaret Oughton 1st Feb 1852 at Lasswade - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRP-XJM
Surely these people must be connected to George's family!
Looby :)
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I can't easily see a marriage for George in Lasswade so far. No reason to suspect he travelled far from there if his father also farmed at Moat.
Elenora could be a niece to George. Just found a listing of children for William and Janet Wright (who I do guess/think is George's mother). Let me try to find it again.
Added: Hi Looby. Good to have you onboard too ;)
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This was the list of children I saw for William and wife Janet Wright http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.ainslie/70/mb.ashx
Monica
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Moat Farm still farmed by Aislies in 1871:
William Ainslie 36 Farmer 260 Acres Arable Emp 3 Maid Serv & 40 Outworkers b. Lasswade
Anne Ainslie 25 sister b. Lasswade
Rachael D Ainslie 23 sister b. Lasswade
John G Ainslie 21 brother b. Lasswade
Eleanora Ainslie 19 sister b. Lasswade
Mark Sanderson 28 visitor
George Ferguson 23
George Lawrie 45
Janet Denholm 27
Address: Moat Farm, Lasswade
Looby would guess this is connected to your earlier comments:
Hi all,
Interestingly there is an Elenora Ainslie born to a William Ainslie and a Margaret Oughton 1st Feb 1852 at Lasswade - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRP-XJM
Surely these people must be connected to George's family!
Looby :)
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Hi Looby - thanks for helping out:) I think my brain is going to explode!
Ann Oughton (my direct descendent) had a sister Margaret born 1814. I wonder if this is a marriage of hers. She would be 38 though? Seems odd that she would also marry an Ainslie - but perhaps sisters and brothers?
I don't have enough information about George yet to know if he had siblings.
Regards, Carol
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Trying my best to help but not turning much else up - except the fact that William and Margaret Ainslie had a lot of children ;D
Found this - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/M7B1-MB1
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It looks like the mother of Elenora Ainslie was Margaret Wilson Oughton who according to that Family Tree on FamilySearch was born in 1814 and had her last child in 1853 at age 39. Elenora was born when she was 38.
I'm trying to find something else relating to the Elenora on the 1841 Census.
Looby :)
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Just so I am clear in my head - this is what I am gleaning from the info so far:
Margaret Wilson (b 1790) married (1813) James Sinclair Oughton (b 1791)
They had numerous children including Margaret Wilson Oughton born 1814 - who married William Ainslie (b) 1798 (had LOTS of kids)
and also
Ann Oughton born 1816 - who married George Ainslie (b) 1796 (Had possibly 3 daughters - Mary, Janet (my 2nd great grandmother) and Ann)
Am I correct in this so far?
Yikes! Carol
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Coincidentally - I have just been contacted by someone I had put feelers out to a while back.
He said that someone had done a pretty thorough job of researching the Lasswade families. I have just shot him an email to see what has been done and what is available.
Regards, Carol
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Carol, your post, one ago, is where I think we are at :)
With George Ainslie having died pre 1855, you are going to have to find alternative ways of confirming details. I think the 1841 census for him at Moat is really helpful in this respect. Also, the naming order of his first children's names (Scottish naming pattern when used provides lots of clues on paternal and maternal grandparents, see for example www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm). You have first born Margaret and then Janet born here. Not a science, just helpful ;)
You also have very likely his father William at Moat mentioned in William Ainslie's Will & Testament entry in the 1830s.
Lots of helpful info there.
Regarding Margaret Oughton Ainslie, did she die after 1855 I wonder? If so, her death cert and that of husband William's if he also died after 1855 would help you in confirming their parents' names.
Monica
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William and wife Margaret are at Moat for 1861 which is great news as it means they lived past 1855 and the start of official registration and those great and informative death registrations ;D
William Ainslie 60 Farmer 2 Empllying 210 Acres 6 Labourer
Margret Ainslie 46
William Ainslie 26
Janet Ainslie 22
Rachel D Ainslie 13
John G Ainslie 11
Darina Ainslie 7
Eleanora Ainslie 9
...and 3 servants
Address: Moat, Lasswade
Hopefully, you should be able to confirm family connections back to George and Ann, if we are correct thinking that sisters married brothers.
Monica
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According to that Family Tree on FS - William died 5th Nov 1860? (obviously not correct if he's on 1861 Census) and Margaret Ainslie nee Oughton died 3rd Apr 1864.
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I am having a Wills & testament frenzy (always the case with farmers and all their land) ;D
Two entries. Father William and son William? Death searches will help to establish:
William AINSLIE 5 April 1866. Farmer at Ploverhall latterly at the Moat near Roslin. INVENTORY EDINBURGH SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES SC70/1/129...is this father?
William AINSLIE 6 May 1874. Farmer at the Moat near Roslin. INVENTORY EDINBURGH SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES SC70/1/168
Monica
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William Ainslie snr is farming at Plover Hall on the 1841 Census-
AINSLIE Wm M 40 Farmer
AINSLIE Margt F 25
AINSLIE Wm M 6
AINSLIE Margt F 4
AINSLIE Janet F 2
ORMAND Agnes F 20 Female Servant
All born Midlothian.
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Looby, there is a death for a Margaret Ainslie in 1864 in Lasswade. Likely one of the remaining poorly indexed entries (missing age and likely maiden name?). Ref. 691/00 0041.
However, there is a more helpful entry for I think husband William:
1865 William AINSLIE aged 65. Mother's maiden name WRIGHT (and there is our Janet Wright, wife of William, who we have as likely mother to George) in LASSWADE, MIDLOTHIAN ref. 691/00 0092
To do with the Will & Testament entry in 1874, there is a death for a 38 yr old William Ainslie in 1872. Close fit to that age in the 1871 census entry in Moat. Years/dates showing in the Wills & Testament database on Scotlands Peoples do not match death dates. The settlement of Wills etc sometimes took place years later.
Monica
PS: That 1841 census entry you posted is a good fit isn't it to what we have.
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William Ainslie - who married Margaret Wilson Oughton apparently died around 1860 (George Ainslie's brother who married Ann Oughton).
His son William Ainslie born around 1834 - died 1872.
They must be the two records you have found?
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There isn't an 1860 death showing in Lasswade, any age, for a William Ainslie. The spelling may vary though.
Given we have a likely entry on the 1861 census and then a death in 1864, with mother's name showing as Wright, I would be inclined to look at that one first.... ::)
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Hi Monica - you are quite correct. I went back into the data and my dates just don't match up. I will keep plugging at it- I think I am getting close:)
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Hi Dragonlady,
I've been burning midnight oil and at almost 1.45 am I'm exhausted but can I say before I disappear, I think this William Ainslie snr. could be George's brother :-\. You need to look on Scotlands People at the 1847 OPR death record for George (it may have no useful info but it's worth looking) and also the death of William which must be in the 1860s but after the Census of 1861.
Good luck,
Looby :)
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Hi All,
I looked at the OPR death record for George Ainslie in 1847, It is a one-liner,
George Ainslie Moat 51 R 6 y, the age probably 51 and the last 3 characters possibly location of grave.
Tom
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Hi Looby/Monica - thanks so much for all your efforts!!! I too spent a lot of time on it yesterday.. this is what I have so far:
James Sinclair Oughton b 1791 married Margaret Wilson b 1790: They had (that I have found so far): William Ainslie 1798 (married Margaret Wilson Oughton); George Ainslie b 1796(as per his stated age of 51 in 1847 from the Scotlands people record I checked yesterday) married in 1836 Ann Oughton (b) 1816;
Margaret and James Oughton also had: James Oughton b 1818 (married Ann Taylor b 1820 and then Catherine Smith b 1832); John 1822, Gavin 1824; Robert 1827; Isabella 1829 and David 1832.
William Ainslie b 1798 and Margaret Wilson Oughton b 1814 had: William 1834, Margaret 1837, Janet 1838, Elizabeth 1841, Isabella 1843, Anne 1845, Rachel 1848, John Gavin 1849, Eleanora 1852 and Davina 1853
George Ainslie and Ann Oughton b 1816 had: Mary 1838, Janet 1839 (married Thomas Messer and emigrated to NZ - my direct ancestors) and Ann b 1841.
If I am correct two sisters married two brothers i.e. Margaret Oughton married William Anislie and Ann Oughton married George Ainslie.
I am a bit fuzzy on the generation prior to James Oughton marrying Margaret Wilson, but I think James (b 1791) had at least a couple of sisters : Jemima and Margaret ... no details on them yet.
Phew... I thought my head was going to explode yesterday, much too taxing for this grey matter.
Input very appreciated and valued! THANKS SO MUCH!
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Hi Tom - I just posted something which may help sort some of this mess out.
I too looked at George Ainslie's record yesterday... I gleaned from that an approx dob (based on his age at death); also that he was buried at MOAT (I was surprised to learn that was a place not a canal!).
The information from that record seems to fit with the rest of the info - as Monica has suggested.
Hopefully, I can pull it all together and move back to the next generation.
Regards, Carol
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Hi Carol,
I think Moat is a farm in that area. I think the last 3 characters are a Gravediggers reference, R 6 y. So I think that he maybe buried in a cemetery in that area. There maybe a headstone to look for, so may tell us or confirm some of the records we have found already.
Tom
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Please to see that there is a mention of Moat on George's OPR death entry. Every little helps ;)
Monica
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That makes sense Tom, because I believe they were farmers in Parish # 691..whatever that means?
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Hi,
Parish 691 is......Lasswade.
Tom
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OH I see TX - well that keeps it in the running as well because the family are very firmly entrenched in Lasswade:)
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I spent some time today mucking about in the Scotlandspeople site --- I am IN LOVE!!
A RCer had kindly posted information in the resources pages about how to use the site, armed with that info... I now have some really decent lists of bdm's for Ainslie's - all in a matter of minutes. I can now cherry pick through the lists to find the most likely fits.
It was all for a measly 4 or 5 credits! Could it get any better:)
Thanks everyone... onwards and upwards. If I can ever return the favor, plse let me know:)
Carol
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I gleaned from that an approx dob (based on his age at death); also that he was buried at MOAT (I was surprised to learn that was a place not a canal!).
I think Moat in the burial entry is more likely to be where he resided than where he was buried.
Also if he died in 1847 aged 51, then depending whether or not he had had a birthday in 1847 before he died he could have been born in 1795 or 1796. Always assuming that the age at death was accurate, of course.
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Thanks Forfarian, that makes sense because they were farmers at MOAT. Yes I have his DOB as an approx year.
Either way, I have so much more to go on now that I had a couple of days ago. I have learned to be a lot more cautious with my data and to take the time to VALIDATE:)
Carol
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this is what I have so far:
James Sinclair Oughton b 1791 married Margaret Wilson b 1790: They had (that I have found so far): William Ainslie 1798 (married Margaret Wilson Oughton); George Ainslie b 1796(as per his stated age of 51 in 1847 from the Scotlands people record I checked yesterday) married in 1836 Ann Oughton (b) 1816;
If James was born in 1791 and Margaret was born in 1790, they cannot be the parents of George born 1796 or William born 1791. Also I thought Monica had established that the parents of William who died in 1865 were William Ainslie and Janet Wright?
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I didn't look at the image for the death of a William Ainslie in 1865. Just mentioned what showed on the search result page I viewed:
1865 William AINSLIE. Mother's surname: WRIGHT. Aged 65 at death in LassWade - ref: 691/00 0092
Monica :)
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From this earlier link that I posted http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.ainslie/70/mb.ashx - these are showing as the children of William Ainslie and Janet Wright:
James, 29/7/1785
John, 2/12/1786
James, 30/1/1790
Janet 18/11/1791
George 9/2/1794
William 19/3/1796
William 25/8/1798
These all show on Family Search as actual extract from the OPRs, therefore, original images should be available to view on Scotlands People.
As additional support that we are on the right lines here, I think, is the 1841 census for George, Anne and their children. Included in the entry is a very possible entry for his mother Janet. We haven't as yet figured out who the other Elenora who shows in the household in 1841 belongs to.
Carol, unfortunately, the 1841 census is the most limited in terms of info. Relationships within the household were not included normally and everyone over 15 was supposed to have their ages rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
Monica
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Oh dear Forfarian - I was obviously in information overload!!! ARGH! Clearly the dates didn't match up on that last post. I should have quit while I was ahead:(
I actually got quite a bit of info from ScotlandsPeople yesterday, but haven't had time to sit down and make sense of any of it yet.
Monica - thanks again for the info... I will try to spend some "quiet" time on all this and get it sorted. I agree the information you posted for William Ainslie and Janet Wright looks to be the most likely -especially given the dob for George.
p.s. I wish someone would round my age down by 5 years!!!!
ON the plus side... I haven't entered any data in for George Ainslie's parents, siblings yet... because I wanted to validate it - so at least I didn't "pollute" ancestry with unsubstantiated data.