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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Limerick => Topic started by: teejay on Friday 18 April 14 16:45 BST (UK)
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Hi Annie May was born in Co Limerick c 1893 / 1894 but I have drawn a blank in finding her birth.
These are the facts that I have. She married George Henry Wilson during October 1913 in Eastleigh Hampshire in a Roman Catholic church. They lived at the same address. She was 20 years old and her occupation was domestic cook. Her father was Peter O'sullivan a road steward. She died in July 1941 aged 47.
Her eldest son, now deceased, spoke about the times in the 1920's and 1930's when he travelled to Castle Connell Co Limerick to visit her family and how he used to go fishing in the river Shannon. He never went into any other details about his mother or Ireland.
The house that Annie May was living in when she died was called COOLBAWN which I believe is an area near Castle Connell
I have recently found a family named O'sullivan living in Richhill in the Irish 1901 census who could be her family but the girls name is May aged 7, father Peter a shopkeeper. On the 1911 census the family is living in Ballynacourty, without May, but Peter is now a road labourer (road steward !!!). I cannot find Annie May on any UK or Irish 1911 census
Peter nor Annie May O'sullivan is a common name in Co Limerick and continuous searching draws a blank
Can anybody offer any help please
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I'm assuming and posting these as the 1901 / 1911 census records you referred to:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Ballyvarra/Richhill/1494091/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Castleconnell/Ballynacourty/622820/
The 1911 census record for Peter O'Sullivan in Castleconnell shows 30 years married. A quick search of the marriage index in the RootsIreland website for Peter O'Sullivan in County Limerick brings back only one Mary (wife's forename in the 1901 / 1911 census records), a church marriage to Mary Griffin in 1881.
A quick search of the RootsIreland baptismal/birth index for parents Peter O'Sullivan and Mary Griffin in County Limerick brings back a number of hits, critically these include:
- a civil birth and church baptism for a Christopher O'Sullivan in 1892;
- a civil birth for a Catherine O'Sullivan in 1893;
- a civil birth for an 'Anne Mary O'Sullivan' and a church baptism for an 'Anne My O'Sullivan' in 1894;
- a civil birth and church baptism for a Clare O'Sullivan in 1896;
- a civil birth and baptism for a Bridget Mary O'Sullivan in 1898; and
- a civil birth for a Mary Ann O'Sullivan in 1907.
All of which ties in nicely with the children in the 1901 Ballyvarra and 1911 Castleconnell census records for Peter and Mary O'Sullivan. The search of the RootsIreland index brings back other baptismal/birth records for this couple, but the 1911 census record points to this possibility anyway (15 children born, only 6 children living).
All record content is 'pay to view'.
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Searching the RootsIreland website county index for Limerick, I can say that the 1881 marriage of Peter O'Sullivan to Mary Griffin took place in Doon RC parish, which is in east County Limerick, close to the border with County Tipperary.
On that basis, this looks like the civil record for the marriage registered in County Tipperary, should you wish to order it up:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYW7-7Y3
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYWW-368
The RootsIreland website cites the parish/district for this civil record as Cappagh, County Tipperary, the content of the transcribed record is 'pay to view'.
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Just to add, the RootsIreland website county index for Limerick shows the parish/district for the 1894 civil birth record of 'Anne Mary O'Sullivan' as Annacotty, and the parish/district for the 1894 church baptism of 'Anne My O'Sullivan' ('My' probably mistranscribed) as Castleconnell RC parish.
This is the best fit for the civil record, should you wish to order it up:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBFM-CZ5
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Thank you very much gaffy for your excellent help. Although the Christian names do not match all the other clues certainly give me the feeling that you have highlighted the correct person. Annie May was the grandmother of my wife but whilst searching for my own ancestors I have found on more than one occasion that Christian names given at birth were changed, especially by the ladies.
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This is the latest information that I have on Annie May. With the information supplied by gaffy I obtained the civil birth certificate for Ann Mary O'sullivan which gave me the following information.
Born 4th July 1894 place of birth Mount Shannon, father Peter O'sullivan occupation steward , mother Mary Griffin. Now another problem arises , would Mount Shannon be the big house or that area of Limerick. In the 1901 census there were only 3 houses in Mount Shannon and only 1 was occupied.
Peter's occupation also causes a problem . Steward in 1894 ,shopkeeper in 1901, road labourer in 1911 and road steward on Annie May's marriage certificate. Would steward refer to a position in the big house.
With all this information I am convinced that Ann Mary O'sullivan is my Annie May.
Through Roots Chat and another forum I have made contact with the granddaughter of Bridget the younger sister on the 1901 census. Bridget fled to England between 1920 and 1923 and never returned to Ireland or spoke about the family. She only said that the Mount Shannon house featured in her life. The granddaughter is as much in the dark about the family as I am. We do know that the big house was burnt down by the IRA in 1920 to stop it being occupied as a barracks by the British Army.
Any help about how to further our research would be really appreciated
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Hi Teejay,
I'm not sure how old this post is but I'll answer it anyway in the hope you may find some of the information new and relevant.
I am a great grandson of Peter and Mary (Griffin) O'Sullivan and I live in the west of England near Bristol. My grandfather was Christopher (Christy) O'Sullivan of Casleconnell and he was the only surviving son of Peter and Mary O'Sullivan.
Peter O'Sullivan may have been born in Casleconnell in the early 1840s. This is an assumption made from his army record which gives this as his place of birth. He joined the 47th foot (the Lancashire regiment) on 27th December 1870 aged 25 and was given the rank of Coporal. This would suggest that he was given immediate responsibility for a section, possibly because of his age or alternatively his level of education. Peter O'Sullivan, unusually for that period of Irish history was literate and well educated.
He returned to Castleconnell approximately a decade later and Married Mary Griffin in Doon (East Limerick) in 1881. Peter was about 40, Mary was 20 and over the next 20 years they had 15 children of which only 6 survived, they were Christopher (known as Christie), Kathleen (known as Kitty) Annie May (known as May), Bridget (known as Breda), Clair (known as Clara) and Mary Anne. I have to admit that I had not known that May's first name was Anne but it helped to solve a mystery in my family. My mother and her five sisters were all named after family members of the previous generation, also her 2 brothers and I could identify all with the exception of my aunt Anne one of the only 2 surviving children of Christopher O'Sullivan. It now makes sense that she was named after Annie May her father's sister. It is a revelation to me that Annie married an Englishman but I have to say, not a surprise. It would appear from old family stories that the O'Sullivan family was very pro British. Kathleen (known as Kitty) married an English soldier in Limerick in 1914 just before the outbreak of the 1st WW. His name was James Henry Hatcher and they settled in Islington, North London after the war, eventually moving to the Farnham area in Surrey to be closer to James' family. They had two daughters Kathleen and Clara. Unfortunately Kitty died young aged 45 in 1935, which suggests her birth year was 1890. I am in contact with her great granddaughter.
Clara O'Sullivan also married an Englishman by the name of Cecil Norris and they had one son William (Billy Norris) who died aged 21 riddled with cancer. My mother used to regularly visit them in Romsey, Hampshire when she came to England to nurse in the London hospitals and she said that they never got over the death of their only child.
That Annie May also married an Englishman is therefore of no surprise to me but it is a surprise that Bridget also came to England. I had no idea what became of her because after the 1901 census she disappeared, but the fact that she "fled" Ireland again could have a bearing on family legend.
My aunt who was the authority on family information told me that grandfather Peter was a very heavy drinker, one might say probably an alcoholic who would spend pretty much every evening in the pub returning home often in a dark mood when he would turn physically violent on his wife and children, including his daughters. This continued throughout their childhood until Christie grew to be a well developed young man. On the final occasion of Peter's violence towards his wife and daughters Christie turned on his father and gave him such a severe beating he never raised a hand to a family member again. Maybe it was this domestic violence that Bridget was turning her back on. Peter O'Sullivan was known as the village scribe. He made a small sideline in writing letters for village folk who were largely illiterate, reading and writing letters for them in exchange for a small fee. He may have been a fisherman but I have no real evidence for that other than to say that my grandfather Christie was a keen and regular fisher on the mighty Shannon. My mother remembered him often turning up from a fishing trip with a fine Salmon tucked under his arm. His old fishing rods are still on display in the old homestead my mother grew up in, Sallymount, Lisnagry, near Castleconnell. They have been on display in the same place in the old living room for well over 80 years now. I have no interest at all in fishing but my son is mad for it. Perhaps he gets it from his Irish great grandfather. I think it quite probable that May's eldest son may have been taken fishing on the Shannon by his uncle Christie.
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Part 2 (I exceeded the 5500 characters)
The connection with Mount Shannon also has it's roots in family legend.
From a story my uncle Sean told me, Peter's mother and father were in service to the Massey family of Mount Shannon. His father who I think may have been Dennis O'Sullivan (but I need to do more research in his direction) is thought to have been the valet to Lord Massey and while away on a trip to Paris with Lord and Lady Massey his new wife was "preyed" upon by their eldest son left at home to run the estate. Whether he forced himself on her or seduced her isn't know but family legend has it that Peter's mother told him on her deathbed that he was not the son of the man who raised him but the son of the present Lord Massey. This family legend according to uncle Sean was told to him by his father who claimed that it was told to him by his father Peter. I always used to think to myself, what a wonderful story but I bet it's told in various forms by every Irish family from Dingle to Donegal. However, when I recently had my DNA analysed on Ancestry I was surprised to discover that I was only 43% Irish, suggesting that my mother was not 100% Irish. It does now make me wonder if there may have been some truth in the family legend. It may also account for Peter's heavy drinking. If his mother did tell him about his alleged paternity it may have had a profound effect on him and caused him to become quite morose.
You may also be interested to know that Mary O'Sullivan was widowed in 1925 the year that Peter died aged 84 (inscription on his headstone which implies he was born 1841). She was a widow for 39 years and died in April 1964 just a few weeks off her 104th birthday. She was claimed to be the oldest living person in Ireland for the last few weeks of her life.
I hope you have found this information of some use and I would concur with you that May O'Sullivan of Castleconnell is beyond all reasonable doubt the Annie May you're trying to identify. I have photographic image of Peter, Mary, Kitty Christie and Mary Anne (who was a life long spinster) but unfortunately not of May. Please let me know if your interested in copies and I shall email them to you.
With my regards, Matt Wood
PS My mother once told me that two of her father's sisters died young, both from bone cancer. I suspect one was Kitty, could the other have been May? Do you know what she died from?
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Hi Matt
This post from you has come at a complete surprise to my wife ( I do the research on her behalf ).
The only firm evidence that I have is that Annie May O'sullivan married George Wilson in Eastleigh Hampshire on the 11 November 1913. She was a spinster and domestic cook living at the same address as George in Eastleigh. On the marriage certificate it states that her father was Peter a road steward . Her age was 20 yrs . She had two sons Harry and Ronnie Wilson born in Eastleigh.
Harry my father in law was born 15 Feb 1915 but is now deceased. Annie and George moved to Holt Pound Wrecclesham Farnham Surrey before or in the early part of the 2nd world war.
Annie died in Guildford hospital 9th July 1941 aged 47 from cancer and is buried in Eastleigh .
Would the name or place COOLBAWN mean anything to you ??? . My father in law never spoke about his family except to say as a young boy he used to visit family in Castleconnel
Teejay
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Hi Teejay,
So much of what you and I know of the O'Sullivan's of Lisnagry, Castleconnell seems to dovetail together including the date of birth for Annie May, and as I can't find any other O'Sullivan families in Castleconnell at this time I would say it's pretty certain you've identified the correct family. I also know that Christie O'Sullivan worked most of his life on road maintenance. In the 1911 census aged 21 his occupation is given as a steam engine driver. For most of his working life he operated the heavy roller that compacted the chippings into the road. I guess his father's employment on the road as a labourer was probably all he could get at his time of life. When you consider he was still doing a hard physical job at the age of 70 that's really quite shocking. I also know that the term steward was often used in place of the word labourer, a word that could be construed as having negative connotations.
Coolbawn was a farm on the edge of Castleconnell comprising some 40 acres approximately but I am unaware of the family having any connections with the place. How does it fit into your research?
I hope to speak with my Aunt Anne in the next few days and I will see if the names Harry and Ronnie Wilson are familiar to her. As she was born in 1930 it's possible that she didn't know them, despite them being her first cousins. As Harry was born in 1915 I guess when he returned to Castleconnell it would have been to the home of his Grandparents at Ballinacourty and he probably knew his grandfather Peter O'Sullivan in his childhood. A further clue pertinent to your information is the mention of Peter O'Sullivan's extend family in England on his tombstone. I'm guessing this is a reference to May and her three sisters who had all made there homes in England.
I will get back to you when I have spoken to aunt Anne. In the meantime if your interested in receiving the family images I hold please let me know how to get them to you. Do you know if it's possible to send image via this site?
With my regards, Matt Wood
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BTW
How much do you know of Bridget O'Sullivan and her descendants? I would be very interested to make contact with her granddaughter. Could you please do me the favour of passing on my email to her and letting her know I would be very pleased to hear from her. I will pass my email on to you tomorrow.
Many thanks, Matt
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Matt you can't post your email address on a thread, (for your own protection) use the Private Message system, see the small page icon under the persons username.
You can remove your email by using the modify top right of you post.
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Hi, Castleconnell comes under Limerick and the district is Annaholty.
Fishing... I remember reading about a guy in Catleconnell named Enright who designed a fishing Rod and Reel, very popular, he or his son eventually moved to Dover and opened a shop,.....Sharp and Enright.
(there's a bit of useless knowledge for you!)
This is her birth record
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02233/1841834.pdf
This is Clair or Clare's birth
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02144/1814174.pdf
These next children below are also listed, in the 1911 census it say that some children did pass on.
Maggsie
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01810/1709258.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01884/1732901.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01916/1742954.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01681/1668749.pdf
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Hi Maggsie,
Thank you very much for passing on the various links, they are most enlightening especially the birth record for Dennis John O'Sullivan. This may confirm my suspicion that Peter O'Sullivan's father was Dennis O'Sullivan. The discovery of a son (possibly named after his grandfather) makes this all the more likely.
Do you know when civil birth registrations started in Ireland. Were they as early as the 1830s as in England?
Are you by any chance the wife of Terry who I have been corresponding with in connection with this family?
With my regards, Matt
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Hi Matt,
No, sorry, I am not related to you in any way.
1864 Civil records were introduced, by Queen Victoria.
Before then we rely on ….
Tithe records 1823 to 1837
Griffiths Valuation 1837 to 1864.
Then Church records, if Catholic use.....
https://registers.nli.ie/
BUT,
Familysearch.org do have births in ireland up to 1958, I am listed.
My only link to Castleconnell is where my ancestors were from in the 1550's.
Maggsie
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Good afternoon
I am the surviving grand-daughter of Bridget Mary O'Sullivan, born 5 May 1898. She died, aged 99 years and 11 months, on 7 April 1998. I am, therefore, a great-grand-daughter of Peter and Mary O'Sullivan.
The story goes that she ran away from home, to join a sister in England. She never went back to Ireland and cut all links with her family. This has made researching my Irish line very difficult. She had a fiery 'difficult' personality, so the info posted about her father, Peter, would seem to give some clues.
If you visit the British Genealogy and Family History Forum and navigate to Ireland >Limerick County-wide > Christopher O'Sullivan, b County Limerick, c1891, you will find my thread on Christopher.
Thank you
The wide-eyed owl
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Welcome to this post. We have both spent many years trying to break down this brick wall and at long last the family are beginning to come together. Annie May and Bridget Mary are not the long lost members any more
Terry
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Hello Jill,
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner, it took me some time to find this message which appears to have been sent some time ago. I had no idea what became of my grandfather's sisters with the exception of Mary Anne who remained a spinster and lived close to her brother caring for their mother until she died in 1964 and Clara who married Cecil Norris in England and had one son William (Billy) Norris who sadly died from cancer aged 21. My mother visited them quite frequently when she came to England to nurse. They lived in Romsey, Hampshire.
It is, therefore, a pleasant surprise to finally discover what became of the other three sisters who all came to England and married Englishmen. It also makes sense of family legend that my Grandfather was very concerned about the blitzing of Britain in the second world war, following with interested concern on the news and in the papers what areas of the country had been bombed. His children found his concern strange and a little obsessive. Now knowing that four of his sisters were living in England makes sense of it all.
I am sending Terry copies of the photographs I have of members of the family. I hope he manages to pass them on to you.
With my regards, Matt Wood
PS If you'd like to know more about my mother and her family please let me know. With the exception of the oldest and youngest sibling they all came to England where they settled and raised families. Aunt's Claire (86) and Anne (88) are the last surviving siblings. My mother Mary Bridget Wood (O'Sullivan) died last May.
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Hi Matt
you say there are 3 houses in Mount Shannon 1901 i am unable to find them the purpose being to look at the building returns to see if any are owned by a Thomas Nevins
Thomas Nevins died 1902 at Mount Shannon Manor
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1902/05683/4601608.pdf
his wife Esther 1907 her maiden name may be Dearing/Deering married 1864
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05509/4543969.pdf
1900 New Jersey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9JZ-GKK
1901 they appear to be visiting Thomas's daughter Mary Celia wife of Henry Vincent Jackson
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Roscrea/Inane/1702495/
Thomas Nevins seems to have bought the property after 1888
Lady Louisa Fitzgibbon seems to have owned it in 1870s see page 148
https://www.failteromhat.com/lo1876/limerick.pdf
source
https://theirishaesthete.com/tag/mount-shannon/
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There is a good possibility that Peter Sullivan was a Land Steward for the Fitzgibbon family up to 1894.
Around 1895 or so the births start in Richill.
Thomas Nevins appears to have bought Mountshannon circa 1893
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2696
This may be your Griffin family John Griffin and Catherine Finnuchan
Son Michael born 1868 at Doon father John a feather monger
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03440/2263103.pdf
John appears to have died 1889 a feather dealer wife Catherine informant
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06115/4745731.pdf
Catherine 1901 not seeing any obvious births to see who is the father of the grand children
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Doon_South/Doon_Town/1514882/
Catherine died 1907
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05513/4545032.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Doon_South/Doon_Town/643621/
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Joseph Griffin a trader ,Doon married Bridget Darcey 1914
said his father was William Griffin a trader
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1914/09866/5583982.pdf
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Sorry should have posted Peter and Mary's marriage 1881
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11020/8029736.pdf
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Hello Matt
Thank you so much for this further info, and now my own apologies for a tardy reply. And, yes, our mutual contact has let me see the photos - I can tell you that, as a young woman, my own mother was the spitting image of her Aunty Kathleen. It was very strange to see the familiar face come up on screen. My mother died in December 2017, aged 94 years and 4 months; I suspect that she was about the same age as your late mother - they would have been first cousins.
My family (which means my father's family, into which my mother absorbed herself) always said that Bridget cut off all contact with her family in Ireland. I do not recall any mention being made of her sisters in England. Bridget was just a one-woman family and that was accepted unquestioningly. It is all very complicated and not for a public post. Apparently, RC will not let me post a private message until I have made a qualifying number of posts.
Re the Blitz: Bridget worked in a munitions factory (Cossars, I believe) during WW2. She was very nimble-fingered and was on the bomb assembly line. She and my mother lived in the Stroud Green area of London, in a flat in a house with a big cellar. During the heavy bombing of 1940/41, they sheltered in this cellar and Bridget spent the time crochet-ing at lightning speed - she kept her mind off things by keeping her fingers busy.
Have you checked out the O'Sullivan thread on British Genealogy and Family History Forum?
Finally, I will ask our mutual contact to pass on my email address That will make communication much easier.
Best wishes
Jill