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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: sophiewilliams on Wednesday 30 April 14 08:56 BST (UK)
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???
I have battled with this mystery for a while and wondered if the good people on Rootschat could help me please? Family have handed down that my grandmother, Kathleen, was illegitimate and that her father had been a man from "the Forest" (Forest of Dean).
As the title suggests, my GT gandma, Alice got pregnant while her husband was in the Asylum. His death cert tells me he died in 1916 and had had his condition (paralysis of the insane) for two years - back to 1914. I have sent feelers out and am waiting a reply about admission date into Burghill Asylum ..... His name was George Bick.
My grandmother, Kathleen, was born in June 1914, conception then Sept/Oct 1913. This is why it would be good to find admission date .....
George and Alice married in Foy (separate post!) In 1899 and had two legitimate daughters Ada and Alice May. When George died in 1916, Alice married a David Waters in Sept 1917 in Ross Registry Office. They lived in Weston Under Penyard and Kathleen went to the school there.
Kathleen's school records at Weston under Penyard tell me she had a father/guardian David Waters .,. Her surname was always Bick like her sisters. I don't think marriage legitimised a child at that time ... If she was David's that is.
Kathleen has no birth certificate, she was never registered (caused probs later with getting a passport) and doesn't appear to have been christened either. Her marriage certificate has two dashes under father and his occupation. If David was her father .... Why do that?
Another side to the story is that Alice threw David out and he went to Ross workhouse and from there to Ledbury and Bromyard workhouses finally spending his last days in Leominster old priory hospital. I can't even find his burial site even after paying for a search.
I have put an article in Weston News to see if anyone can remember hearing about this family.
All I want is to know is who Kathleen's father was or maybe Alice has taken that secret to the grave with her!
Is there anything I have missed or could be looking at??
Many thanks for reading this essay!
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PS .... David came from Dancing Green on 1911 Census.
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Hi there.
Not sure if you are aware, but "paralysis of the insane" was the term used for the degenerative changes arising in late-stage syphilis. George would have been suffering from syphilis for many years before the 2-year "paralysis" stage indicated on the death certificate. This could sometimes lead to low fertility in a marriage.
Unfortunately it is very unlikely indeed that there will be evidence of the identity of Kathleen's father. As a child of a married woman the law would have presumed her to be George's offspring had there been a birth registration, though where it was obvious the husband could not be the father due to his absence or indisposition one sometimes finds paternal details left blank.
As you say, there doesn't seem to be anywhere near sufficient evidence to conclude that David was her natural father. You are correct that it was not until 1927 that subsequent marriage of the parents was capable of legitimising a child in England & Wales. My hunch would be that if David had been her natural father the family story about "a man from the Forest" wouldn't be as vague as it is :)
Sadly these things often have to be written off as a mystery, but like you I would be exploring any surviving records on George to see whether there are any clues. There may be just a distant prospect that something relevant appeared in the local papers (see the British Newspaper Archive) but I wouldn't get your hopes up!
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Thank you so much for your reply. Syphilis gosh didn't know that. That was a shock. I just can't leave it alone. Thanks so much for your help. I will not be defeated!!
Incidentally, it was never talked about in my mum's house when she was a little girl ....
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Following on from my first post on this issue .....
The illegitimacy issue has got me thinking .....
Can anyone help with this or confirm?
Alice presumably gave my grandmother, Kathleen, her surname of Bick because that was her married name? How bizarre that George should have a child named with his surname that wasn't his? People knew that her husband wasn't on the scene (don't think they knew he was in the asylum!) And she apparently didn't hide the fact Kathleen wasn't his ... Kathleen also wasn't christened. It almost is more confusing when illigitimacy happens in a marriage?
Could do with clarification on illegitimacy and marriage etc if anyone could help?
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As I said at reply 2, the legal presumption would be that the child of a married woman was attributable to her husband.
I don't see it as surprising that Kathleen's surname was Bick, given that at the time of her birth her mother's surname was Bick. There was no "giving" of a surname. On a birth certificate at that time the only given names for the child were the first and middle names.
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Except that George was in the asylum and everyone knew it...but I do see what you are saying.
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Except that George was in the asylum and everyone knew it...but I do see what you are saying.
But it wouldn't make any difference as Alice's name was Bick. You could say that Alice was then stuck with the name after her marriage. ;)
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Yes I see what you mean.
:(
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" Her marriage certificate has two dashes under father and his occupation. If David was her father .... Why do that?"
The Registrar can only write down what s/he was told at the time.
The question asked is "who is your father?" and the bride can say anyone she wants, or say "I haven't got one" -- there is no checking done
With 3 years between Kathleens birth and her mother's remarriage to David, there is no proof that David was Kathleen's father. He might be, or the unknown man from the Forest could equally be the father
I have an instance in my tree where there are only dashes for fathers name & occupation so i assumed illegitimacy untill i tracked the bride back in the censuses and she was born well after her parents marriage and her father was alive & well at the time of her marriage
I also have a couple of instances where the fathers name is actually wrong (John instead of Thomas)
You could well have reached the end of the line on this branch!
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Yes Marmalady think you could be right on this one - it's just a hard pill to swallow!
George died in Jan 1916 and that left Alice free to marry. Why did she leave it till Sept 1917 to re-marry as you say, if David was her father. My suspicion is now even more that David wasn't and that the man who was maybe was killed in the war ......
Think will have to leave this one alone :(
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I have now found out that Alice had a baby boy who lived a year and died in 1912 ...... I'm thinking that this was because of George's syphilis. (Birth and death certs in post)
My mum and I are now wondering if my grandmother was actually George's after all and the reason she didn't have a birth certificate wasn't because she was illegitimate - as we had always been lead to believe ..... But because she was born when her father was in the Asylum, what an awful thing to put on a birth certificate in those times .... This is only a thought. We will not know because of difficulty obtaining asylum records from records office as to date of admittance.
My question is, Is it possible to have a healthy child, my grandmother, after losing a baby to syphilis? Or is the fact she was healthy more evidence she wasn't Georges. So many questions!
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Hi Sophie, a bit of googling found this
"the father of the child may be syphilitic, but if the disease has not been transmitted to the mother the child will be born free of infection."
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020134syphilis/020134syphilis-ch5.htm
Jool
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Very interesting thank you!
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I have now found out that Alice had a baby boy who lived a year and died in 1912 ...... I'm thinking that this was because of George's syphilis. (Birth and death certs in post)
My mum and I are now wondering if my grandmother was actually George's after all and the reason she didn't have a birth certificate wasn't because she was illegitimate - as we had always been lead to believe ..... But because she was born when her father was in the Asylum, what an awful thing to put on a birth certificate in those times .... This is only a thought. We will not know because of difficulty obtaining asylum records from records office as to date of admittance.
My question is, Is it possible to have a healthy child, my grandmother, after losing a baby to syphilis? Or is the fact she was healthy more evidence she wasn't Georges. So many questions!
I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Only the father's name would appear on the birth certificate, not his address. The addresses given would be place of birth, and the address of the informant, who would probably be the mother. So there would be no mention of the asylum on the certificate.
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Thank you for your reply.... Back to plan A then, my grandmother was illegitimate and thats why she didn't have a birth certificate.