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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: New Zealander on Tuesday 20 May 14 04:58 BST (UK)
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Can anyone assist please?
I cannot find either a birth record for John Bryce born on 12.02.1855 or a death record for his father Robert Bryce died between 1854 and 1855 (The 1854 date is obtained by subtracting 9 months from John Bryce's date of birth which means Robert Bryce must have still been alive around April or May of 1854 .. time of conception ;D )
John Bryce was born on 12.02.1855, this record from a Family Bible. His father was Robert Bryce and his mother Isabella MacKay. These two married in the Parish of Barony, Glasgow on 17.12.1853. It was a 2nd marriage for both. The previous partners of Robert and Isabella were deceased.
By the time of the 1861 Census, Isabella is recorded as a widow (for 2nd time) with son John 7 years residing at St Andrews Square, Glasgow.
Why and where is the death record for Robert Bryce and the birth record for his son John Bryce?
Any help or assistance would be much appreciated.
Thank you
Alex G :)
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Hi
If Johns age is correct in the 1861 census then his birth would be 12th feb 1854 which is prior to Statutory Registration.
It looks like Robert and Isabella had 2 other children (links below) which would suggest that Robert didn't die until at least 1857
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQQS-FJC (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQQS-FJC)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQQ3-Y4W (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQQ3-Y4W)
Andy
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Andy
Thank you for your input. There is no other information in the Bryce family records including the Family Bible that suggest Robert and Isabella had other children in addition to John Bryce born 12.02.1855. This includes burial and Lair information from the Mitchell Library.
The 1861 Census records only Isabella with son John Bryce aged 7 years. Census records sometimes have been taken liberally with dates and in this case might also include the precise date when Statutory Registration actually took effect in 1855. John Bryce might actually be in his 7th year i.e. 6 years and 9 months of age rather then actually being 7 years of age.
I have seen those records on Family Search and they are out of kilter with all known information about the family. I believe they are another Robert and Isabella MacKay.
While it is a very small difference .. there is the different spelling of MacKay or McKay as well on Family Search.
A death record for Robert Bryce would fix that.
Again many thanks for your input
Alex G
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Hi Alex
The 2 apparent siblings on Familysearch are sourced from the Statutory Registration of births so it would be worth looking at the Registrations on Scotlandspeople as the information on them may be helpful. I agree that ages on censuses can sometimes be iffy but as there doesn't appear to be a birth on SP or on Familysearch (who have indexed all Scottish births and marriages 1855 to 1875 from the Statutory Registers) then 1854 does look a possibility.
Variations on spellings are not unusual even sometimes in the same document so I wouldn't read anything into it.
Andy
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Hi Alex,
What age approx would Robert have been around the time you beleive he died?
I would agree with Andy, spellings of names can vary greatly so I wouldn't rule the McKay births out.
Looby :)
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Hi again,
A quick basic search on Scotlands People -
Death in Calton district Glasgow of a Jane Bryce mother's maiden name McKay aged 0 in 1856
Death in Calton district of Glasgow of an Agnes Bryce mther's maiden name McKay aged 0 1858
These could be the two children found by Andy and if they were siblings of John Bryce then due to their early deaths it is possible they were never recorded in the Family Bible - it would greatly depend on who wrote details in Bible and when they were recorded.
St Andrews Square the address where John and his mother Isabella are living at time of 1861 Census is in Calton District.
Like Andy I wonder if John was born pre-1855. :-\ :-\
Looby :)
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Have you checked for spelling variations of the surname Bryce? Brice perhaps? And perhaps broaden the search to include other areas?
To check if there was another family with the same names (as you suspect there is), have you checked the various censuses?
Just a couple of ideas which you may or may not already have tried ...
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Hi
Just to re-enforce Andy's and Looby's finds - Jane Bryce was born* at 38 St Andrews Square, the same address that Isabella and John were living at in 1861. Robert Bryce, father and informant, is recorded as a Carter.
Gadget
* 9 July 1856
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Also, Agnes - July 11 1858 at 38 St Andrews Square. Robert is again recorded as a Carter and no mention of him being deceased. Isabella was the informant on this record.
Gadget
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Just to add my experience of family bibles.
I inherited my Mother's family's bible. Some of the information was correct but quite a bit was wrong. It took me ages to find correct BMDs with some of the info. So I wouldn't take what's written there as completely accurate, if I were you, Alex.
Gadget
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Just to add my experience of family bibles.
I inherited my Mother's family's bible. Some of the information was correct but quite a bit was wrong. It took me ages to find correct BMDs with some of the info. So I wouldn't take what's written there as completely accurate, if I were you, Alex.
Gadget
I would agree Gadget. It would not be unusual to record a date of birth slightly out to make the birth "respectable". Robert and Isabella married Dec 1853. Perhaps John was born shortly after their marriage?? His year of birth might have been misremembered or altered by whoever wrote the details in the Bible. A birth shortly after the wedding might have been frowned upon if the family member was religious (Presbyterian?).
Looby :)
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Also Alex I think you have to widen your search for a death for Robert Bryce.
He was informant on 1856 birth of Jane so therefore there should be a death cert.
Isabella is recorded as a widow in 1861, so you should check between these years. But bear in mind just because Isabella said she was a widow in 1861 doesn't mean she was a widow.
Looby :)
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A birth shortly after the wedding might have been frowned upon if the family member was religious (Presbyterian?).
Agree in the main. However, my granny was born the day after her parents were married! It wasn't recorded in a bible though - just what I discovered ;D
Alex - do you have any info on Robert - date and place of birth; who he was previously married to. The marriage entry to Isabella doesn't record either of them as being widow/widower, although Isabella''s death record records two husbands.
Gadget
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Also Alex I think you have to widen your search for a death for Robert Bryce.
He was informant on 1856 birth of Jane so therefore there should be a death cert.
Isabella is recorded as a widow in 1861, so you should check between these years. But bear in mind just because Isabella said she was a widow in 1861 doesn't mean she was a widow.
Looby :)
I've been searching with open dates for a while, Looby. I think we need some age info at least - there are a lot of Robert B*s on the censuses.
Gadget
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Also Alex I think you have to widen your search for a death for Robert Bryce.
He was informant on 1856 birth of Jane so therefore there should be a death cert.
Isabella is recorded as a widow in 1861, so you should check between these years. But bear in mind just because Isabella said she was a widow in 1861 doesn't mean she was a widow.
Looby :)
I've been searching with open dates for a while, Looby. I think we need some age info at least - there are a lot of Robert B*s on the censuses.
Gadget
Snap ;D
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Hello again ..
The best information that I have for Isabella MacKay.
She was born circa 1827 her parents were Archibald MacKay occupation tailor and mother Isabella McLean. She made a first marriage to William Clark. The date or location of this marriage is not known.
Upon marriage to Robert Bryce on 17.12.1853 Isabella was a widow, likewise Robert Bryce. Both were residents in the Parish of Barony in Glasgow and after marriage were living at 192 Stobcross Street, Gorbals, Glasgow.
Robert Bryce had previously being married to Margaret Little. This marriage took place on 27.04.1841 and both were living in Barony, Glasgow. They had a son James Bryce born on 25.12.1844 (he is my great grand father). Margaret died (we believe ) on 05.11.1847 and is interred in St Cuthbert's, Edinburgh.
At this time Robert Bryce was employed as a railway man for the North British Railway Company. He had previously being employed as a coachman in Glasgow.
I do thank you for your continued interest.
Hope this assists.
Alex G
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Alex,
Have you found Robert and his son James on the 1851 Census?
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Alex,
Have you found Robert and his son James on the 1851 Census?
I see him on the 1851 with his mother, Agnes(s) in Lanark. He's shown as aged 39 and 'formerly a railway station ? '. with him is son James, aged 6.
Alex, did James marry in Scotland? If so, when, where and what does it say about Robert?
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
That was the record I was looking at . But (although it could be an error) he is recorded as married, when both his brother and I assume his sister are declared as Widowed.
Just seemed a little odd that a man who was a Railway Station Master with a brother who was an Auctioneer (both I would have thought good positions) is a Carter a few years later. Mind you, anything is possible :-\
Looby
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Gadget
There is no record of marriage between James Bryce and Janet "Jessie" Bryce nee Miller.
Janet Miller and her family lived at Oakbank, West Lothian. On her Death Cert in 1933 in New Zealand there is a note that she was married at Wishaw, Scotland in 1868 .. she would have been aged 20 years. In 1872 she gave birth to an illegitimate daughter Margaret. In 1874 she gave birth to a son Alexander where James Bryce is the father. On this Birth Cert it is recorded she was married on 31.12.1872 at Dollar, Clackmannanshire. There is no record of any marriage between James Bryce and Jessie Bryce nee Miller anywhere in Scotland or New Zealand... they were never married.
On James Bryce's Death Cert in 1930 in New Zealand it is recorded that his father was Robert Bryce and his mother Isabella Mackay. This is not correct as I have James Bryce's Birth Cert where his father is Robert Bryce and mother Margaret Little. Isabella MacKay was his step mother.
In the 1851 Census I have James Bryce, scholar aged 6 years with Margaret McKenzie in the Parish of St Cuthbert's Edinburgh. I have no record of Robert Bryce in the 1851 Census but believed he moved back to Glasgow.
Alex G
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Hello again .... :D
I have been unable to as yet locate Robert Bryce on the 1851 Census. If this record that Gadget and Looby have for the 1851 Census is correct for Robert and James aged 6 years living with mother Agnes then I believe it is the information I am seeking of Robert Bryce's birth.
I have a record where John Bryce and Agnes Wood married in 1799 and had a large family. There is a Robert Bryce born in 1811 which is supported by the 1851 Census.
Alex G ;D
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James's baptism record records Robert as a railway porter. I see that one of the witnesses was a William Bryce. James was bpt in Glasgow. The 1851 James that you cite was born Linlithgow. Why do you think that James was in Edinburgh in 1851, rather than the one that I found?
Gadget
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Ignore my last query - I see that you now think the 1851 in Lanark is correct. Still can't find a death for him though :(
Gadget
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1851 - the family are at Kingsonknowe , Lanark , Lanarkshire
Agnes Bryce Head W 74 b Lanark Lanarkshire
Jane Bryce Dau U 51 b Lanark
William Bryce Son W 46 Auctioneer b Lanark
Robert Bryce Son M 39 Former Railway Station Master b Lanark
James Bryce Grnson 6 b Lanark
Margret Small Dau W 35 b Lanark
William Small Grnson 11 Scholar b Lanark
Agness Small Grndau 9 b Lanark
James Small grnson 7 Scholar b Lanark
Elisabeth Small Grndau 5 b Lanark
Added- I see that you are noe inclining towards this family with James rather than the Linlithgow born boy.
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Yes, Looby, that's the one I was referring to. Alex has got that one now.
Gadget
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1861 Census.
Hawick, Roxburghshire.
1 Melgund Place.
Robert Bryce age 46 Lodger Unmarried Occupation Letter Carrier no 1 born Lanark, Lanarkshire :-\
Could this be Robert working away from home?
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Ignore that last post.
I was getting carried away :P
There is another Robert Bryce born Lanark, Lanarkshire on the 1851 at Hawick.
Drat and double drat ;D
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Alex is your great grandfather James on the 1861 with Isabella and half sibling John at St Andrews Square, Calton?
If not where is he please?
Seems odd that we can't find a death for Robert when it looks like he informed on birth of baby Jane in 1856. Maybe the death records of both babies should be looked at too.
Looby
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It might be worth having a look for William Bryce, the auctioneer, and sister Margaret Small on the 1861 - all clues are worth following. It also looks as if Margaret Little didn't die/buried in Edinburgh. Was she dead by 1851 or is the status correct and she died later. Census info is not always very helpful (like family bibles :-X )
Gadget
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Re Margaret Little.
I have located the following record and this does fit with Robert Bryce being employed in the railways.
"On 05.11.1847 in the Parish of St Cuthbert's Edinburgh, Margaret Little age 36 years,wife of Robert Bryce of North British Railways, died of "Fever" at 3 St Ann Yards." She was buried on in Warriston Cemetery, Edinburgh, Plot 1 Common Ground on 07.11.1847.
I located this information several years ago and also phoned (from New Zealand) the civic authorities in Edinburgh and confirmed the burial.
Alex G
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So census info was wrong and it looks as if Robert went home to Mum as he's 'formerly....'
If he was a carter, he could have died anywhere. However, he's down as a warehouseman on all the later certs. Are you sure that James's father was the same one who married Isabella?
Gadget
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Hi
According to an earlier post James death certificate names Isabella as his mother, she was actually his step-mother but that would not be an unreasonable mistake for an informant to make.
Andy
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William and the Small's are still with mother in 1861 in Lanark:
Kingsons Knowe
Agners Woodson Bryce, widow, 84
Jean, daughter, 61, dairymaid
William, son, widower, 56, carter
Agnes Small, gd, 19, dressmaker
James Small, gs, 16, carter
Elisabeth Small, gd 14
All b. Lanark
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Yes I am absolutely certain that the same Robert Bryce (father of James Bryce) married Isabella MacKay on 17.12.1853. There is no doubt at all.
Also James Bryce's Death Cert in New Zealand from 1930 declares his parents as Robert Bryce and Isabella MacKay. This is an error as his mother was Margaret Little.
Now I have both the Birth Cert and Death Cert for James Bryce and could post them here if necessary. It is getting late here in New Zealand .. trouble staying awake .. but I could locate these records tomorrow.
Alex G
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Hi Alex
Only post small portions of the certs - site rules because of copyright.
Goodnight.
I'll try later as I have to go paint a wall and I'm sure Looby will be looking too :)
Gadget
PS - I've seen the birth cert:
James's baptism record records Robert as a railway porter. I see that one of the witnesses was a William Bryce. James was bpt in Glasgow.
Gadget
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Bit more info:
Agnes's death cert of 17 Nov 1858 does not record Robert as deceased, although Isabella was the informant (as with her birth).
Gadget
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I may have missed it, but why exactly do you believe that John's father died between his conception and birth ?
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I may have missed it, but why exactly do you believe that John's father died between his conception and birth ?
I think we've moved on a wee bit since t Alex's first post, DaveKe. We're still trying to find a death record for Robert. If you want to help search, it might be worth you having a read of all the associated posts on this thread.
Gadget
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I've read all the other posts... John mother was a widow by 1861.
Why the intial insistence that he must have died within a narrow 9 month window ? Did John's birth certificate state his father was already deceased ?
There is no point in "helping to search", if the information being given initially seems to be a complete red herring.
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I don't think New Zealander (Alex) was implying that Robert died within the 9 months from John's conception to his birth, DaveKe. :)
He knew that Isabella was a widow on 1861 and that according to his Family Bible John had been been born in Feb 1855. Therefore Robert was alive mid 1854 and dead before 1861 Census. That was before we found what appears to be the births and deaths of 2 babies Jane and Agnes to the couple. It would now seem Robert was alive till approx 1858 (Agnes's birth) But we have been unable to find a death ???
Looby :)
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Looby
Thank you for that clarification .. it took the words right out of my mouth !!
I have appreciated very much the time and effort that everyone has put into this search and would never knowingly "post a red herring".
Alex G ;D
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Looby
Thank you for that clarification .. it took the words right out of my mouth !!
I have appreciated very much the time and effort that everyone has put into this search and would never knowingly "post a red herring".
Alex G ;D
No problem. I'm enjoying the hunt ;D
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Good Morning everyone from a very wet and damp Invercargill in New Zealand.
Some further information that may or may not assist. A few years ago I considered that Robert Bryce may have been buried with his wife Isabella and consequently made several inquiries, including a few telephone calls to the Glasgow City Council and the Mitchell Library.
From here I established a death record for Isabella Bryce at the Eastern Necropolis. This read :- "Isabella Bryce mother of John Bryce, 184 Finneston Street, died aged 64, cause heart disease, Lair purchase number 9356, Lair owner John Bryce, Lair number 1463".
The Mitchell Library were unable to supply any record of the death or burial of Robert Bryce. I did establish that John Bryce's wife Elizabeth Robertson died in 1940 and her burial is also recorded at the Eastern Necropolis, Lair location unknown.
Lair number 1463 that contains Isabella Bryce was purchased by son John Bryce in 1891.
John Bryce died on 08.09.1928 aged 73 years at the family home in 69 Hillview Street, Shettleston, Glasgow. I have this record in the Family Bible, also the Death Notice from the newspaper and I think somewhere a Death Cert.
I also visited the Eastern Necopolis 12 months ago and have several photographs of the Bryce Lair. There is no Headstone. The Lair is near the boundary of the Eastern Necropolis that borders Gallowgate Road.
I don't know any way specifically to search the Eastern Necropolis unlike many cemeteries in New Zealand that can be searched online (i.e. Invercargill's Eastern Cemetery) but wonder if it worth considering again that Robert Bryce is still interred there somewhere like the rest of the Bryces.
From other information I established that the Eastern Necropolis first opened in 1847.
Alex G ;D
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Hi Alex
It's now a lovely evening over here :)
I've looked and looked for Robert, as has Looby, but after his being the informant at Jane's birth in 1856, there is nothing tangible. Isabella reported the birth and death of Agnes. It could be that he died sometime around 1856 (and Agnes was not his daughter - but she was named for his mother :-\ ) but where is he? If he died outwith the Glasgow area, there don't seem to be any records that seem correct (I used a few SP credits looking!). If he died in a workhouse or as unknown, he might have just been recorded as R B or <blank>. - I've seen some records like that.
Will keep looking but it is very mysterious.
Gadget
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Hi again,
Yes I had wondered about Agnes's birth/death and who was the informant - Robert could have been dead but Isabella named him anyway as father. :-\
I hate to say it but he could have left the family and Isabella was just calling herself a widow (I've seen it happen before).
I take it when John married his father was recorded as deceased (apologies if you've already provided that info, just typing as I think.)
Looby :)
PS. Sunny evening in SW. Scotland too ;D
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Greetings All
Yes you cannot do the impossible to locate records Robert Bryce and son John. Like wise I will not stop looking and something may yet appear. Heaven forbid there is always the next world where we might meet them ... and no I am not a religious person either.
I do thank you for your input and time to assist me. This is much appreciated.
It is my intention to re-visit Scotland in 2015 and I would dearly love to thank you in person.
Cheers
Alex G ;D
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... and no I am not a religious person either....
Good for you.
Personally I'm waiting until they build a time-machine ;D
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Good morning (evening) Alex,
Fingers crossed something turns up. I can't even identify Robert on the 1841 Census. I was hoping to see where he was living and who with.
If he died after 1855 while living with Isabella you would expect that there would be a record. Either the name has been misspelled or he died away from home. Or he never died at that time at all. He could have left the family......
Hope you manage to make the journey across "the watter" in 2015. If you are visiting Ayrshire send me a Personal Message - maybe catch you for a coffee ;D
Looby :)
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Ahhhhhhh ------------
Interesting - Jane's birth and death records have Robert as the informant but Agnes's have Isabella.
Hunch/maybe casting nasturtiums but Robert maybe died or left the family before Agnes's birth, which would be in the time frame of 28 August 1856 (inf on 29th - Jane's death) and 11 July 1858 (Agnes's birth). I think I'd go with a death though as it looks as if Agnes was named for Robert's mother.
Gadget
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I'm now wondering how Isabella supported herself and John . Did she have an occupation in 1861?
Looby
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found the death certificate of Robert Bryce.
Robert died 12th May 1859 in Gartnaval Royal Asylum
Aged 46 years, married and occupation given as Coachman (Pauper)....
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Also says he died of Epilepsy.
Annette
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Well done buckhind :)
Did it have his wife's name or parents names on the cert? Probably not I suppose if he died in Gartnavel.
Alex will be pleased.
Looby :)
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found the death certificate of Robert Bryce.
Robert died 12th May 1859 in Gartnaval Royal Asylum
Aged 46 years, married and occupation given as Coachman (Pauper)....
Thanks Looby.
I posted more but Rootschat deleted some of it because I linked to another Genealogy site.
Fair enough.
Alex had posted the same query on another website and a lassie from there had found the DC.
I can't take the credit.
His parents are on it but if Alex goes to the site he can post the result here.
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Good Morning from New Zealand
Thank you all for your interest and assistance. It is a marvellous find.
I am absolutely delighted .. over the moon .. as it has been a long road to locate Robert Bryce.
Normally I do not approve of using the scatter gun approach of posts on multiple forums. It was remiss of me not to advise of this post (was overlooked and not intended)on the other board and I apologize.
Again my appreciation.
Alex G ;D
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How sad - he is listed as a pauper :'(
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As he was a pauper there may be poor relief records about his family/dependants. Also, there may be admission records to the Asylum & medical records held by the local health authority. Maybe someone more familiar with Glasgow can advise you of this.
flst
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Gadget and FLST
I have not considered these records yet. A good number of Roots Chat members have been following this thread and assisting me. For that I am very grateful and I do not wish to impose on others any further.
Actually a good idea that it is to look further into the "Poor relief records" I do have sufficient information to complete this family record for the moment.
It is very sad that Robert Bryce ended up a pauper in these circumstances giving that his son John seemed to be relatively successful in life and provided for his mother Isabella when she died in 1891.
Again I am very satisfied and appreciative of the effort provided to me.
Alex G ;D