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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Huntingdonshire => Topic started by: Greaves on Wednesday 04 June 14 12:37 BST (UK)
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I am trying to track down a Frances, birth name unknown, who was born - according to the 1851 census - in Brompton, Huntingdonshire c1801. She subsequently married a James Gilbert, who I believe was born in Bermondsey, London/Surrey, where the couple set up home and had several children: Eliza (1823), Sarah (1825), Mary Ann (1834), James (1838) and William (1841).
As always any help or advice will be much appreciated.
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Looking at the 1851 census (when James has died) it says that daughter Eliza was born 1822 in Kensington, with that in mind there is this marriage
Name:James Gilbert
Spouse Name:Frances Favel
Event Date:19 Jul 1818
Parish:St Mary Abbots Church, Kensington
Borough:Kensington and Chelsea
To be doubly sure this is the correct marriage you could get the birth certificate of James junior or William who were born after civil registration started and so should have the mother's maiden name on their birth certificates
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Think this is Eliza's baptism:
Eliza Caroline Gilbert
DoB:29 Jan 1821
Parents: James and Frances Gilbert
Baptism:21 Mar 1824
Baptism Place:Saint Mary,Newington,Surrey,England
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Possibly another child:
Sophia Gilbert
Born:1 Sep 1823
Baptised: 21 Mar 1824
Baptism Place: Saint Mary,Newington,Surrey,England
Parents: James and Frances Gilbert
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Earlier baptisms of the children
Susannah Favill Gilbert 30 Apr 1820
Eliza Caroline Gilbert 21 Mar 1824
Sophia Gilbert 21 Mar 1824
Mary Ann Gilbert 30 Jun 1837
Sarah Gilbert 30 Jun 1837
Especially note the middle name of Susannah. There does not appear to be baptisms for James and William
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In 1861 Frances appears in Southwark as widowed Frances BRITTON, 61 b Huntingdonshire, with her youngest son William Gilbert.
RG9/327/75/8.
A marriage 1851-1861 to Mr Britton (if there really was such a marriage) should give you her father's name and occupation.
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She may have died as Frances BRITTEN, aged 71, Mar qtr 1871 St Saviour Southwark, frustratingly just missing the 1871 census.
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Thanks for the replies, though I'm still having problems. I did spot the fact that her name had changed to Britton in 1861, but have been unable to track down any marriage between 1851-61.
I'm also having problems with the various baptisms. If Eliza was baptised on 21 Mar 1824 at Kensington (as required for the suggested marriage), then Sophia could not have been baptised on the same date at Newington, Surrey.
The 1871 death looks promising.
So whilst I appreciate the help, I'm still confused.
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Both the baptisms at replies #2 and #3 are shown as having taken place at St Mary Newington on the same date - no problem there. Siblings were often baptised together, and not always in infancy. The parish register in this case helpfully records their birthdates as well.
Kensington is not shown as Eliza's place of baptism but as her birthplace - 1851 census.
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That makes sense.
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Hi
Only christening I can find in Huntingdon which may be a relative on Freereg
William s of William and Frances Filavel 2.8.1809 St Mary Huntingdon.
Could be a brother?
Ciderdrinker
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The BRITTON/BRITTEN name raises some questions. When I first came across it, I though that maybe she had reverted to her maiden name following the death of James. But I am increasingly convinced by the FAVEL suggestion.
We know that James was alive in 1841 but dead by 1851. So Frances must have remarried sometime after 1841 to someone named BRITTON/BRITTEN, who must have died by 1861, since she is widowed on the 1861 census.
Does this make sense?
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We know that James was alive in 1841 but dead by 1851. So Frances must have remarried sometime after 1841 to someone named BRITTON/BRITTEN, who must have died by 1861, since she is widowed on the 1861 census.
Does this make sense?
This makes sense, with the caveat that the fact that she held herself out as a widow in 1861 does not necessarily mean that there had been a lawful marriage to the late Mr Britton/Britten. Like you, I cannot easily see evidence of one. So it may be that she had lived with him without marriage.
If you are lucky her death certificate may describe her as "widow of _______ Britten" which at least would give you a name for the mystery man.
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But she was Frances Gilbert widow in 1851 implying that she married Mr Britton after 1851
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But she was Frances Gilbert widow in 1851 implying that she married Mr Britton after 1851
Agreed - sorry had not noticed the post said "after 1841".
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Only christening I can find in Huntingdon which may be a relative on Freereg
William s of William and Frances Filavel 2.8.1809 St Mary Huntingdon.
Could be a brother?
That's a promising find. It's also extracted on Familysearch - as FLAVEL:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J946-16K
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Sorry, but doesn't the 1861 census just say that she is a widow. How do we know who this applies to? Surely she could have been widowed by either James Gilbert who died sometime between 1841 and 1851, or by Unknown Britton, who she might have married after James Gilbert's death and who may have died by 1851.
Though there is of course no evidence of any remarriage.
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or by Unknown Britton, who she might have married after James Gilbert's death and who may have died by 1851.
If she'd already been married to Mr Britton by 1851 then it would be very odd for her still to be enumerated as Gilbert in the 1851 census and then to adopt the Britton surname later.
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Possible death for James Gilbert is Jun qtr 1845 St George Southwark 4 286.
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Only christening I can find in Huntingdon which may be a relative on Freereg
William s of William and Frances Filavel 2.8.1809 St Mary Huntingdon.
Could be a brother?
Hunts isn't the easiest county to research online as the LDS was refused permission to film many parish registers. Brampton (not Brompton as shown in 1851) baptisms aren't on the IGI, BVRI, Freereg, Ancestry etc, nor is a transcript available from Hunts FHS. The only places to view the parish registers are Cambridge and Huntingdon Archives, or you can use the reasonably priced research service at Huntingdon Archives.
William Favel married Frances Allpress at Huntingdon St Mary & St Benedict in 1799 but until you find a baptism for Frances Favel it's speculation that these might be her parents.
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Possible relative of Frances here?
1823 Charles Favell, age 36, height 5ft.8ins.dark complexion, abode Brampton by
Huntingdon, general behaviour indifferent . Suspicion of Murder.
http://www.fflavell.freeserve.co.uk/emigration.htm
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She may have died as Frances BRITTEN, aged 71, Mar qtr 1871 St Saviour Southwark, frustratingly just missing the 1871 census.
There's a burial of a Frances Britten aged 72 at St Giles, Camberwell on 10 Feb 1871, which might be the same person.
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Sorry, but doesn't the 1861 census just say that she is a widow. How do we know who this applies to?
1861 names her as Frances Britton widow. The inference must be that she was the widow of Mr Britton, particularly as she named herself as Frances Gilbert widow in 1851.
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Following an earlier suggestion I have been looking for a birth certificate/baptism for William Gilbert, who according to the censuses was born c1841, in order to confirm Frances' maiden name. but so far I haven't had much luck.
Building on the various suggestions so far, I have ordered certificates for James Gilbert Jnr (birth), James Gilbert Snr (death) and Frances Britten (death).
The outstanding problems appear to be finding the marriage of Frances to Britton and the birth of William, the youngest son. Both of these are at present eluding me.
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I have now found the marriage of the eldest daughter Susannah Favell Gilbert (10 Dec 1843 St John the Evangelist, Lambeth). The image on ancestry shows that James Gilbert was still alive in Dec 1843, so this fits with the suggested death date of 1845.
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The outstanding problems appear to be finding the marriage of Frances to Britton and the birth of William, the youngest son. Both of these are at present eluding me.
In case it helps, William's age was shown as 9 weeks in the 1841 census (6 June 1841) making his birthdate around the beginning of April - so should be registered in the June qtr or might just have squeaked in to the March quarter if born by then and registered quickly.
On a quick look I could not easily see it either, however.
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The above two problems still eluding me. I have, however, now also found the marriage of Sophia Gilbert, who was married 6 Feb 1848, in the same church as her sister. Her father James is shown as deceased. So he was alive in Dec 1843, but dead in Feb 1848. The suggested death date of 1845 is looking better and better.
Update: however at the marriage of Sarah Gilbert in Sep 1847, again in the same church, he is NOT shown as deceased!
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Update: however at the marriage of Sarah Gilbert in Sep 1847, again in the same church, he is NOT shown as deceased!
That doesn't mean that she said he was alive - it's neutral on the point. The question was not always asked, and the information not always volunteered. There was no requirement for the minister or registrar to ascertain or record whether the father was alive or not.
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Thanks - I'm learning. I have sent for the death certificate, so hopefully that will clarify matters.
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As discussed in the PM the records I found today
Frances Favell and family
(NB the spelling of Favel varies in the records so I have used what is recorded hence the variations)
Baptisms at St Mary Magdalene, Brampton, Hunts
31 March 1799 Frances Favell daughter of Stephen (labourer) and Sarah baptised
5 February 1797 John son of Stephen (labourer) and Sarah baptised
6 December 1801 Mary Favel daughter of Stephen (labourer) and Sarah baptised
22 July 1804 Rebecca Favil daughter of Stephen (labourer) and Sarah baptised
27 July 1807 William Favell son of Stephen (labourer) and Sarah baptised. (William was buried 19 August 1811)
14 February 1813 Maria Favell daughter of Stephen (labourer) and Sarah baptised
Maria was the last of their children baptised at Brampton.
Marriages at St Mary Magdalene, Brampton, Hunts
12 November 1796 Stephen Favell of Graffham (sic) and Sarah Smart of this parish were married. Witnesses: Stephen Favell* and James Alexander. * Probably the grooms father.
I did not find a baptism for Stephen at Grafham (correct spelling). I now see the 1851 census says he was from Great Staughton. A tree has his parents as Stephen and Mary and born about 1770 and there is a baptism on familysearch for 9 September 1770 that matches this. (There is a possible marriage in 1761 on familysearch and burials for Mary possibly in 1817 and Stephen senior possibly in 1818 – but I have not see the originals to vouch for them).
Sarah Smart and Family
25 August 1776 baptism of Sarah Smart at Brampton, daughter of Samuel and Alice Smart (their last child of many, alas I did not note the names of Sarah’s siblings).
Sarah’s parents were married as follows: 30 May 1758 Samuel Smart of Alconbury, Shepherd and Elizabeth Teat (banns say Alice) of this parish (Brampton), spinster, were married. Witnesses Thos Pannell , Pack Mash (sic) (Don’t know who Pack Mash was but he appears a lot so probably a church warden.
Burials
Stephen Favel buried 27 June 1860 aged 88 (estimated birth 1772) at Grafham All Saints
Sarah Favel buried 8 February 1860 aged 87 (estimated birth 1773 ties in with 1776 baptism) at Grafham All Saints
Samuel Smart buried 23 August 1801 aged 67 (estimated birth 1734) at St Mary Magdalene, Brampton
Alice Smart buried 5 February 1809 aged 74 (estimated birth 1735) at St Mary Magdalene, Brampton
Hope that helps
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A little update now that I have received some certificates back from the GRO.
The suggestion that my Great Great Grandfather James Gilbert was born Q1 1839 at St Saviours, Surrey has proved incorrect, as whilst the certificate names the father as James Gilbert, he is listed as a Hostler. Even more problematically the mother is not Frances, but Jane Gilbert (nee Smith). So the search for the DOB and baptism of James, born c1839 in Bermondsey goes on.
The death certificate of his father, my Great Great Great Grandfather James Gilbert is more positive, listing the date and place of death as 8 May 1845 at 24 Georges Place. He is down as a carpenter which makes sense and the informant is his wife Frances Gilbert.
Similarly the death certificate for Frances Britten states that she died 2 Feb 1871 at 24 Georges Place. It goes on to state that she was the widow of Thomas Britton, a railway labourer.
Since then I have found a possible death for Thomas Britton (Q2 1855 Wandsworth 1d 279), which I will need to check out. There is even a possible marriage for Thomas Britton (Q4 1849 Lambeth 4 301), though I am more wary of this as I can't find a matching entry for Frances.
So some progress, but as always further suggestions are happily received.