RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Aceh on Sunday 15 June 14 11:55 BST (UK)
-
My 5 x great grandfather Daniel Culmer married Mary Kipps at St Lawrence in Thanet on 7 November 1750 and between them they produced 7 children all of whom were baptised at the same church, now on the outskirts of Ramsgate. I descend from their son William (a twin) 1756 - 1816 and up to the marriage in 1750 all is proven.
Based on compelling circumstantial evidence from poor law records I believe that Daniel was the eldest son of William Culmer, a tenant farmer of Preston by Wingham and his wife Sarah Wigmore, however to date (and it's taken 10 years on and off so far) I have been unable to prove 100%, for want of a clinching piece of documentary evidence, that my Daniel was William's eldest son Daniel who was baptised at St Mildred's Preston by Wingham on 6 December 1727.
It appears from the accounts of the Overseer of the Poor for the parish of Preston by Wingham that a "Daniel Culmer" and "his wife" spent time either together or apart, and possibly sometimes with children other times without but this is not so certain, in both the parish of St Lawrence in Thanet and the Parish of St Mildred Preston. Moreover, William Culmer as a tenant farmer, paid poor rate at Preston up to October 1749 beyond which point he appears to have moved away from Preston, possibly to Sandwich, where appropriate burial records for himself, his wife and his youngest daughter have been found at St Clements. Working back through earlier accounts it appears that William was renting fewer and fewer acres of land so it may be that his standard of living was falling until he was no longer able to rent land and left the village, which may in turn be a reason why his eldest son appeared intermittently in the Overseer's Accounts from 1756.
Despite much hunting through parish records, vestry minutes, Ancestry, Find my Past, Family Search etc, the burial of my Daniel has not yet been found; although other Daniels are out there they were not married to Mary Kipps, whose burial has also not yet been found. I see these two burials as being crucial to proving the line back beyond 1750 so any assistance would be appreciated.
Burials for the following Daniels have been discounted; there are others but too far back:
30 July 1783 at Dover - he was a nephew of my Daniel
24 May 1801 at Stourmouth - married to Sarah Wood
13 Oct 1810 at Sandwich - married to Sarah Davis
-
Not much luck here either :'(
Does anyone know of a source of 18th century local history for Ramsgate and the area including Preston by Wingham or a local historian who may be able to give me a lead?
The problem is the latter part of the 18th Century is too early for the Kent Burial Index. Daniel Culmer & his wife Mary nee Kipps, assuming they are the couple referred to in the poor law records, are not of the gentry or the middling sort that one may find in the Gentleman's Magazine or anywhere else.
Some years ago a researcher into the Kipps family believed that Daniel may have been a sailor or a fisherman who may have been lost at sea, but she passed away before letting me have any details of a source that lead her to this conclusion. Neither the CKS nor the Cathedral Archives at Canterbury nor the East Kent Archives at Dover appear to have any records of those missing at sea. Parish records have fishermen drowned at sea whose bodies were retrieved and buried locally but there appears to be nothing else.
Of course Daniel & Mary may have left the county but in their seemingly impoverished situation it seems unlikely that they would forego local relief at their parish of settlement in order to go elsewhere.
I would appreciate any suggestions as to where I go from here.
-
I've not had much luck. :(
Have you tried looking for Davids and CULLMOREs?
There are a few CULMER and CULLMORE burials listed here
http://web.archive.org/web/20010825010511/http://www.rootsweb.com/~engken/cd.txt
which might help with your research somewhere along the way.
-
Thanks Bearcat,
This appears to be a list of burials which I believe I have not seen before (there appears to be no title to it) - do you know who the author is / was? Library staff at the SOG say the late 1700s is too early for the Kent Burial Index. I have extracted from this list all the Culmers and other like sounding names, many of which I recognise (I have tracked the Culmers back to 1485) and will go through them but they are mainly too early and nothing jumped out at me when I scanned it quickly on screen.
From circumstantial evidence from poor law records including references such as "1773 - Charge for 2 journeys to Ramsgate on Daniel Culmers account 7/-", a removal order (from Ramsgate to Preston) concerning his teenage daughter, family naming pattens etc, I am 95% convinced that the Daniel son of William baptised Preston by Wingham in 1727 was the Daniel who married Mary Kipps at Ramsgate in 1750. However, so far I haven't been able to bury Daniel or his wife; there are no surviving wills or admons and the Accounts of the Overseer of the Poor for Preston beyond December 1786 have not survived.
The struggle continues!
-
The burials are from an old Kent Gen Web page.
I think they are extracts from parish records from someone's personal research. Sadly I don't know who it was.
-
Did they have a son called Thomas?
Daniel CULMER his wife Mary and son Thomas are mentioned in
The Early Settlers of the Bahamas and Colonists of North America
By Arnold Talbot Bethell
I can't see a date for the entry on Google books
http://urlm.in/swzs
It looks as though he had 57 acres in Long Island dated 26 December 1789
http://www.bahamasnationalarchives.bs/Genealogy/LandGrants/Famhis_Landgrant_bookC1.htm
-
Scrap all that :(
It looks as if Daniel, Mary and Thomas CULMER were in the Bahamas as early as 1740
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bhswgw/settlers.htm
-
Found this
27th December 1727 Daniel son of William & Sarah baptised
Preston-next-Wingham Kent.
-
Don't know if I'm am allowed to post this if I am not then sorry,
Rootsweb has a Isle of Thanet request site they only deal with this area and are very helpful and know alot about the area it's isle-of-thanet@rootsweb.com
-
Evening Bearkat,
Eleuthera island. I've been up that blind alley already!
According to Mr Bethell's book which I have just taken from my bookcase, the first settlers in the Bahamas arrived on Eleuthera via Bermuda in 1646. It appears but it is not certain that 2 Culmer families who were presumably closely related were in this group. I have not been able to connect them to the Culmer families in England because its not clear what the names of the original settlers were. The first list of inhabitants is not dated and it is not clear whether it comprises a single or multiple generations. For instance we have from the list "Culmer Daniel; Mary his wife; Thomas son" and then we have "Culmer Thomas; Judith his wife." Thomas could have been the brother of Daniel or could have been his son. Back in England I could not find a Mr & Mrs Daniel Culmer and possibly a Mr & Mrs Thomas Culmer who disappeared without benefit of buriel in the 1640s.
Then there is the entry of Loyalists to the British crown who moved from the American colonies to the UK, the West Indies, Canada etc in 1782 - 83, after American independence. It appears to be this group that were granted land such as "Daniel Culmer 57 acres, Long Island". It may be that Daniel Culmer receiving land in c 1783 was distantly related to Daniel Culmer on the list of first inhabitants, but if so it appears he was living in one of the American colonies in the meantime, or more likely in my view, Mr Bethell was himself somewhat confused!
In any case Daniel, my 5 x great grandfather, did not have a son named Thomas.
-
Hi Jolee,
Yes, I believe, but cannot yet prove, that Daniel baptised St Mildred Preston by Wingham in 1727 was my 5 x great grandfather.
Thank you for the link to the Isle of Thanet request site (which I knew nothing about) on Rootsweb. It's top of my list to pursue.
-
You are welcome the Culmer name is quite a big name in Thanet and there are often requests on the IOT site, good luck will see you there I am often on there having strong Thanet roots
-
Hi Jolee,
I've sent an initial email to the Thanet site and await a response.
My 14 x great granddaddy and his wife are buried in the chancel before the altar in St Peters. That was back in 1485. Since then my line have been progressively sliding further and further down the snakes as far as two appearances in the dock at the Old Bailey. Guilty and even more guilty.
See "Toni*'s OHSc Hunt" parts 1 to 9 in the Common Room.
-
Since my last post on this subject I have checked the burial records for 57 parishes in east Kent including coastal parishes from Folkstone to Chatham and have found no reference to the burial of Daniel Culmer in the period from March 1775 when he last appears in person in the Preston by Wingham overseer's accounts up until the 1820s. These accounts show payments to his "wife" (not his widow) up until March 1782 after which the then current overseer's account book ends. When first going into these records some 10 years ago I was given to understand that subsequent overseer's accounts were missing.
However, I have recently read a Penguin 1985 edition of Dickens's Oliver Twist. In Appendix A entitled Dickens and the Poor Law at the back of the book, I read that as early as 1782 parishes were given powers to combine for the provision of institutions for the maintenance of all classes of the destitute who were deemed not to be able-bodied. I had previously understood that workhouses were not introduced until the early 19th century. As 1782 was the year in which the overseer's accounts above came to an end would it be the case that at this point Overseers and their Accounts, as a record of Poor Law administration, became obsolete (not missing) and were replaced by combinations of parishes which I assume were or subsequently became the Poor Law Unions?
Does anyone know what happened in the case of Preston by Wingham? As a small parish was it combined with others, in which case what was the name of the new combined organisation and where might I find its records? Although not appearing in parish burial registers, would this new organisation possibly record the burial of Daniel Culmer, my 5 x great grandfather?
-
Update to my last post on 5 April
I have consulted an archivist at the Canterbury Cathedral Archives, who advised as follows:
1. As the last entry for Daniel Culmer in want in the accounts of the Overseer of the Poor for Preston by Wingham was in March 1775 and in the subsequent entry for Daniel Culmer's wife in distress in October 1775 (note wife not widow) it was more than probable that this meant that Daniel Culmer had abandoned his wife and he could be anywhere, not necessarily in Kent. There are subsequent entries for Daniel Culmer's wife until March 1782 in parallel with a number of Widow Culmer entries but after this date until the end of the account book in 1786 there are only entries for Widow Culmer or Dame Culmer.
2. The powers given in 1782 for parishes to combine, as I mentioned in my last post, was correct and it may be that the combined parishes were centred on the parish of Wingham. However the post of Overseer of the Poor continued for individual parishes as did the accounts books so it was also correct that the account book following the book that ended in 1786 would have existed but is now missing. Until the Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834 the old system with the parish overseer ran in parallel with the powers granted (but not necessarily adopted) in 1782 but when the 1834 Act came into force all records relating to the powers granted in 1782 were ordered to be destroyed to avoid confusion.
Finding Daniel's burial appears to be a lost cause, but it may be that in the course of time his wife, who incidentally was named Mary, was given the title widow. There are 2 burials at St Mildred's Preston by Wingham: 27 April 1795 and 14 February 1802. Both state merely that Mary Culmer died without reference to who her husband was.
So I am no further forward in proving 100% in the interests of genealogical rigour, that my Daniel was the Daniel baptised at St Mildred's in 1727 although there appears to have been no other candidate.