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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: Ali M on Saturday 28 June 14 02:30 BST (UK)
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My 3x gt grandfather Samuel Edwards stated on the 1851 Liverpool census that he was born in Paisley, Renfrewshire in approx 1787. I'm not totally convinced as the same birthplace was given for his wife Sarah who was definitely born in Wales! but I'd really appreciate it if someone could check the baptismal records for him in Paisley.
with many thanks Alison Molineux, New Zealand
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Family Search shows an Elisabeth Edwards born to Samuel Edwards (mother not recorded) in Paisley 3-11-1821. There is also a Samuel Edward (no "...s") born to Thomas Edward and Janet Fairlie at Greenock 17-6-1769. So there were folk of that name in the area.
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thank you that's really helpful. In 1821 my 2x gt grandmother Ann Elizabeth was born to Samuel & Sarah in Liverpool so that 1821 Paisley record is not his but they have been such an impossible family to trace who knows!!
many thanks, Alison
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Hi there, I'm trying again :) to locate my mysterious 3x great grandfather Samuel Edwards who married in Wales in 1808 , lived in Liverpool, but is adamant in census records that he was born in Paisley.
I now have his Flintshire marriage record which amazingly gives his parent's names - John & Elizabeth Edwards and confirms his birth year as 1787. At the time he was "otp" but there is no record of his birth in Holywell or neighbouring villages.
Please can someone help me break through this brick wall by looking up the Paisley baptismal register or advising me how I can obtain a copy from here in NZ.
With many thanks
Alison Molineux
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Hi there, I'm trying again :) to locate my mysterious 3x great grandfather Samuel Edwards who married in Wales in 1808 , lived in Liverpool, but is adamant in census records that he was born in Paisley.
I now have his Flintshire marriage record which amazingly gives his parent's names - John & Elizabeth Edwards and confirms his birth year as 1787. At the time he was "otp" but there is no record of his birth in Holywell or neighbouring villages.
Please can someone help me break through this brick wall by looking up the Paisley baptismal register or advising me how I can obtain a copy from here in NZ.
With many thanks
Alison Molineux
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oops - so sorry!- didn't mean to post the above twice. Alison
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Hi Ali
Searched scotlandspeople who have all the Scottish records (free to search but pay to view records if you've not seen it).
No birth coming up for Samuel Edward/Edwards 1770 - 1800 Renfrewshire - or in fact for the whole of Scotland!
Nothing on famsearch either.
Not to say he wasn't right - they could have been non-conformists, or that part of the register is missing etc, but looks more unlikely.
No marriage John Edward/Edwards Renfrewshire 1770 - 1790.
2 marriages John Edwards and Elizabeth 1770 - 1790, one marriage between 1780 and 1785 for the whole of Scotland. (You could narrow this down by the trying each county singly ......take a little time.....)
Good luck!
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Hi Ali,
Where is Samuel on the 1841 Census and what is written in place of birth?
Looby :)
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Hi Goldie 61,
thank you very much for doing that search. Samuel and his wife Sarah were nonconformists as their later children were baptised at Benn Gardens Wesleyan in Liverpool (though the earlier ones were Cof E baptisms) I'll certainly follow up those marriages - slowly!
and hi Looby - I wish I knew! I cannot find them in the 41 census anywhere. Nor with any certainty any of their 6 children. They were in Liverpool for the birth of their children from 1811 to late 1820s and in Liverpool for my gt grandmother's marriage in 1845 . In 51 they were in Toxteth park and so was Sarah in 61. So I imagine that is where Samuel was in 41. I have tried Welsh and Scottish 41 census also but nothing!
thanks to both of you for replying
Alison
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Just some thoughts.
Do you know any of Samuel's siblings?
Do any of them live nearby in any of the Censuses? It often pays to look who lives in the same street as the people you're looking for. They might give a clue to where their parents lived. Perhaps they (the parents) moved around quite a lot. Maybe Samuel always thought he was born in Paisley, but actually wasn't.
What was Samuel's occupation? That sometimes helps.
I don't suppose it gave his father's occupation on his marriage record in Flintshire?
Or any witnesses names? Was it by banns or licence?
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Hi there,
I know very little of Samuel prior to his marriage. in the 1841 census my 2x great gran and Samuel's daughter ann Elizabeth born 1819 is possibly living with/ working for / visiting a Hugh Edwards innkeeper. It is very near where she lived after her marriage. He could be Samuel's brother. but there is at least on other Anne Eliz Edwards of a similar age and I'm not sure it is her. When his children were born his occupation was always labourer but on Ann eliz's marriage cert he is an engineer. Another anomaly but yes I am certain it is the same man (because, for eg, his wife is living with Ane E's sister and marriage witness in 61)
A marriage witness for Samuel and Sarah nee Jones' marriage in Holywell was her brother another Hugh - no Edwards witnesses though. . married by banns and both otp. (sarah was definitely born there.) and no - no occupation for Samuel.
Not a great deal to go on I'm afraid.
best wishes, Alison
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Samuel and Sarah were married by banns in Holywell and both were listed otp. One witness was Sarah's bother Hugh Jones, the other I don't remember (not at home to check) but wasn't an Edwards. No occupation for Sam on marriage cert. for all his children's baptisms he is listed as a labourer but on my 2x gt gran Anne Elizabeth's wedding cert his occupation is given as engineer - another anomaly! I'm certain that this Samuel is my Ann Eliz's father because her marriage witness was her sister Sarah by then mrs Roberts. Samuels wife Sarah is living with this Sarah Roberts & her husband (Mother in law on census) in 1861.
I don't know of any of Sam's siblings BUT an Anne Elizabeth Edwards of the right age is staying with/ working for a Hugh Edwards , innkeeper just down the road from her married address. If this is my Anne E then hugh might be Samuel's brother.
All in all not much help
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Hi again.
Ann Elizabeth may have "upgraded"Samuel's occupation when she married , people could be ecconomical with the truth, or bend the facts to suit :) .
Sorry for asking this :-[ but I thought I'd better double check - Are you looking at the original handwritten 1851 Census?
The reason I ask is the often people rely on transcriptions and naturally a name or place name can be mistranscribed. I notice you say Sarah is also recorded as being born in Paisley when she most certainly wasn't - where exactly was she born?
Looby :)
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All Scottish records are available on the following low cost pay to view site:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
However I did a check on your information and no Samuel Edwards born in Scotland?
Colin
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Ali - I found this baptism https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCRV-M46
Have you ruled this one out?
Saml Edwards baptised 5th Aug 1887 Holywell Flintshire .
Looby :)
Amended - Thanks Goldie - above is a typo - the baptism is 1787 .
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Another thread active on this topic - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=690983.new#new
:)
Topics merged
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Hi Colin,
many thanks for this info
best wishes
Alison
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Hi Looby,
yes, I did look at the original - you're quite right there are some very "interesting" transcriptions!
Someone told me about the 1787 Paisley record but the parents were different unfortunately.
thanks again for your help
Alison
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oh and Sarah was born in Halkyn next door to Holywell. Her parents were indeed the ones in the marriage record.
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Where does Hugh Edwards say he was born? It's not clear which Census you found this in.
Have you checked out his parents just in case?
Looby - was the birth of Samuel in Holywell 1787? - you have written 1887. Typo?
Do you know when Samuel died? Do you have his death cert? If it was after 1858, have you found him on the National Probate Calendar?
Just trying to follow all avenues to try to get any more info about him! :)
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Ali -the baptism detail I provided you with is a baptism of a Saml Edwards on 5th Aug 1787 in Holywell .
I found it interesting that both Samuel and Sarah are recorded as being born in Paisley (Incidentally does the Census record also have Renfrewshire ? ) .
Bearing in mind that a Census enumerator recorded the information given to him and it is he who has written Paisley not Samuel or Sarah - could it be he wrote down what he thought he heard?? I've been looking for somewhere in the area of Holywell that could have been misheard as Paisley.
So far I've not come up with anything :-\.
All of the surviving Old Parish Records - Births & Baptisms/Banns & Marriages/Deaths & Burials are indexed and their images can be viewed on Scotlands People - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. This is a pay-to-view site . But you can search the index for free -
I've checked for a birth of a Sam*** Edward* from 1780 to 1790 for all countys of Scotland. Unfortunately there is no match anywhere. So if Samuel was born in Paisley no record survives or perhaps ever exsisted (not everyone had their children baptised /it cost money :) ).
Perhaps you could upload a portion of the 1851 Census entry and let us see the handwritten places of birth for both Samuel and Sarah?
Looby :)
Just noticed your post Goldie. Oops andd thanks for noticing!
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Looby
The 1851 census states BOTH Samuel and wife Sarah were born "Paisley, Scotland"
Written in full against Samuel and dittoed for Sarah
Toxteth Park
Samuel Edwards 64 Head Labourer. b Paisley, Scotland
Sarah Edwards 63 wife ditto
Joseph Edwards 26 son b Liverpool
Jemima Edwards 28 daughter in law b ditto
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Oh well, bang goes that theory ;D
Sarah wasn't born in Paisley, and if Samuel was the record isn't on Scotlands People.
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Hi everyone,
some interesting avenues to explore thank you.
answers (as best I can) in no particular order
Hugh I can only find in 1841 census "out of county" - a fairly cursory look suggests most likely birth is in Merionethshire.- not promising
you are right the census only says Paisley, Scotland with no mention of Renfrewshire. I have also wondered if a) Sam answered for both of them (not unknown at that time! :) and if he simply said Paisley and the census taker used his/her geographical knowledge to fill in the gap - maybe not correctly.
I've looked again at the original (unsure how to upload to this format) the writing is very clear BUT there may be two hands. Samuel has Paisley in the last column and then just above it in smaller and darker writing Scotland. Sarah has first " ditto" and then a capital D in the same darker writing as Scotland above. I would not be at all sure the Paisley and Scotland were different hands but do think ditto and D are, with D added later.
So, please what other Paisley could Sam have meant?
and sorry my mistake I did mean the 1787 Holywell record had the wrong parents' names.
I only know that Sam was alive in 51 and Sarah a widow in 61. No children married between those years so no more "sightings" of either of them. I haven't found a definite death record for him
thanks to you all
Alison
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Hi Alison,
Yes you are correct Samuel could have answered for both himself and Sarah. Then again it could have been another member of the household who gave the information for all.
I don't know enough about Census recording to advise on the two different handwriting but the darker word Scotland maybe in a different hand would certainly suggest it was written later.
As far as I'm aware there is only one Paisley and that's the one in Renfrewshire Scotland. And during the 1780s there were certainly people with the Edward/s surname in Paisley and the County. But there were far more Edwards in Flintshire.
I still wonder if the place name given to the enumerator was misheard and he wrote down what he interpreted the location to be. This happened and in fact there are several humourous threads on The Lighter Side Rootschat board about such incidents.
A Welsh accented voice pronouncing a Welsh place name to a Lancashire ear??
But then again maybe Samuel was Scottish and from Paisley :)
Keep digging Alison :)
Looby
PS. Maybe would be a good idea to have a question on the Wales board. Maybe someone on the Flintshire board , with local knowledge, might be able to shed some light.
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Hi Alison
Samuel Edwards & Sarah Jones are also my 3xgt grandparents and I am descended through their son John Edwards, who was convicted and transported to Australia in 1832. I found John’s baptism but not his parents’ marriage and had not looked at this line for a long time. I was so excited when I discovered Samuel & Sarah in the 1851 Census on Ancestry. I was about to follow the Paisley trail, when I saw your information and the Welsh connection. I think that I have possibly found Sarah’s death and Will, but not for Samuel. Have you had more success with this family?
Hope to hear from you
Sylvia
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Hi Sylvia, how exciting! and how neat to hear from you. I will be home tomorrow and will check what new information I have about the Edwards. I did wonder what happened to John as he has been the only sibling I couldn't trace - now i know why. Will pm you tomorrow with what info I have & would love to know about Sarah's will not to mention John's history.
warm wishes
Alison
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Hi Alison, Many thanks for your messages and Edwards family information, which I had assembled from various sources, and especially from you. As I have only just joined Rootschat, I am unable to send a personal message as yet.
I have found the following records for Sarah Edwards, which appear to fit?
Burial record - Liverpool C of E Burials, 1813-1974 in the Parish of West Derby, Church of St.Mary, Edge Hill, Lancaster 1868 - Sarah Edwards, Abode Harrogate, buried September 18th, age 80.
Free BMD - England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Deaths - Sarah Edwards 1868 Sept. Qtr. 80 Knaresbro’ 9a 82
(Ancestry - Estimated birth year abt 1788 - County Yorkshire West Riding)
England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Admins.) 1858-1966:
Will Sarah Edwards 11 December 1868 – formerly of Liverpool in the County of Lancaster but late of Harrogate in the County of York Widow deceased who died 13th September 1868 at Harrogate aforesaid was proved at Wakefield by the oath of Eleanor Jackson of Harrogate aforesaid Spinster the Niece the sole Executrix. Effects under 100 pounds.
Eleanor Jackson was born 16 Jan.1813 to parents Peter Russell Jackson, Gentm, & Elizabeth, abode Headingley, baptised 22 April 1813 Leeds, St.Peter [Yorks], but don’t know whether her mother was a Jones or Edwards (or neither), however both Peter and Elizabeth appear to have been born in Leeds!
Also, I found a possible death for Samuel Edwards on Free BMD - Deaths Sept.Qtr. 1854
Liverpool 8b 116?
It is really great to hear from you and I will send you more details on John Edwards soon.
Best wishes
Sylvia
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Hi Sylvia,
I have some not so good news about Sarah and her will. It looked such a good match with the dates and where she lived etc too BUT the 1851 and 61 censuses unfortunately tell a different story. (you will remember that "our" Sarah is with son joseph in 51 and daughter Sarah in 61)
Here's what I've found:
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
61, Grove Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Sarah Edwards Head Widow Female 62 1789Annuintant
Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Robert Hutchison Son Unmarried Male 35 1816 General Merchant
Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Jackson Visitor Widow Female 67 1784 Annuitant
Leeds, Yorkshire, England this has to be Eleanor's mother
Ann Roberts Servant Unmarried Female 32 1819 Servant
Denbighshire, Wales
Sarah Rodgers Servant Unmarried Female 22 1829 Servant
Flintshire, Wales
and 1861:
6, Canning Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Robert Hutchison Head Unmarried Male 44 1817 Gen Merchant & Shipowner
Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Sarah Edwards Mother Widow Female 72 1789
Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Annie Johnston Visitor Unmarried Female 28 1833 Governess
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Lydia E Whitaker Visitor Female 10 1851 Scholar Harrogate, Yorkshire, England
Rosa H Whitaker Female 7 1854 ScholarYorkshire, England
and finally , again from 1851 a census entry where the household head is missing (Elizabeth Jackson?)
2, Park Parade, Knaresborough, Yorkshire, England
Eleanor Jackson Daughter Unmarried Female 36 1815 Annuitant
Headingley, Yorkshire, England
Henry Whitaker Brother-In-Law Married Male 41 1810 Agent For Silks Of Colton Warps
Greenholme, Yorkshire, England
Lydia Whitaker Sister-In-Law Married Female 40 1811
Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Elizabeth L Whitaker Daughter Unmarried Female 01851
Harrogate, Yorkshire, England
So I think this Sarah is the sister of Elizabeth Jackson.
They might well be both nee Dickinson
(Eliz m. Peter Jackson 1807 in Leeds and Sarah m. John Edwards around that time - lost my bit of paper!
But it does not explain Sarah's wealthy son Robert Hutchison! for whom I can find no satisfactory birth record. Perhaps its as well they are not ours as they seem even more complicated than Sarah and Samuel !!
What do you think about this?
warm wishes
Alison
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It appears that Samuel was born in Renfrewshire, Scotland (SP)
(Bap 18/07/1769)
Parish, Greenock New or Middle
Parish No. 564/1
Ref 10 351
Parents Thomas Edward & Janet (Fairie) Fairie may actually be Fairlie?
(Fr 222)
Annie
ADDED: Please ignore, been reading back & note this has already been discounted.
However, I feel there is definitely a connection as I doubt he would pick "Paisley" out of nowhere.
There may have been a crisis & another family member brought him up, hence his reason for giving a different name for father?
He may have been brought up by his grandparents which does happen?
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Hi Annie,
although this baptism is too early to be Samuel - def. born close to 1787, I do think you are right about the word "Paisley" . Even a Welsh accent to a Liverpudlian ear wouldn't, I think any way, make a Flintshire village name sound like Paisley. So he remains a mystery :(
many thanks, Alison
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Ali,
Too much to read back but were any of his children named after his given mother's name?
It's also possible he was illegitimate & knew his father was "someone" Edward(s) from Renfrew?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
yes they were. he and Sarah were helpfully unoriginal in their naming!
Her parents were Edward and Anne. His, according to his marriage cert, were John and Elizabeth. Children in order of birth were- Edward, John, Samuel, Anne-Elizabeth, Sarah and finally Joseph!
Not exactly proof but fairly convincing. Don't know if there is anything in the fact her parents were "honoured" first
Ali
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Hi Alison,
Many thanks for your response to my information on Sarah Edwards. I must admit that I was rather disappointed, but you have done a great job in proving it to be wrong. I suppose I was a bit unsure when I found that Elizabeth & Peter Jackson were both born in Leeds. I am sorry that I put you to all that work, but I am glad that you were able to correct my mistake.
I have the following information for John Edwards born 1814 Liverpool, Lancashire to Samuel Edwards & Sarah Jones.
At the Lancashire Quarter Sessions, Kirkdale Session on 23 January 1832,
John Edwards (together with Joseph Green) were convicted of stealing silver plate – 8 spoons, 5 forks and 2 salt cellars (total value of 4 pounds) and were sentenced to transportation for 14 years each. John arrived in NSW aboard the “Parmellia” on 16 October 1832. He was a ropemaker in Liverpool but became a sawyer (treecutter)/Farmer in northern NSW.
He married Agnes Thomson 8 November 1842 in Port Macquarie, NSW. Agnes was born about 1819 in Glasgow to parents William Thomson and ?Agnes McFie (possible marriage 16 July 1819 Glasgow). Agnes came to Australia as a free person with her uncle Peter Thompson and his wife Janet Robertson William & Peter Thompson’s parents were Archibald Thompson, Brass Moulder, and Elisabeth Bain of Glasgow. (These are my only Scottish ancestors, unless it can be proven that Samuel was born in Scotland.)
John and Agnes had 7 children, Samuel b.1843, John b.1845 died bef.1859, Edward b.1847, Archibald Peter b.1850, Jessie Mary b.1852 (my gt.gm), Florence Agnes b.1854, Lilly Anne b.1857.
Sadly both John and Agnes died young at the Macleay River NSW - John died in 1859, aged about 45 years and Agnes died in 1862 aged about 43 years.
It is interesting to note that on John Edwards death certificate his father Samuel Edwards is listed as an Engineer!!
I still think that Samuel may have been born in Wales, where he was married (otp), but if only he had made it to the 1861 census as did Sarah we would have known for sure.
Best wishes
Sylvia
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Hi Sylvia
thank you very much for all your information on John Edwards and his family which I had no idea of. Are you in Australia? I'm in New Zealand - my parents emigrated from Liverpool when I was 6.
I'm fairly certain that Samuel's parents were a John and Eliz as per his marriage cert & his children's names so I did a search for Samuels born any where to a John and Eliz Edwards and found one born in Liverpool! - a bit young maybe as born in April 1789 but probably worth checking out further. I'll let you know if I find anything interesting.
warm wishes
Alison
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Hi Alison
I have obtained a Death Certificate for Sarah Edwards. She died on 7 April 1866 at 8 Cooper Street [Toxteth Park] aged 68 years. She was the Widow of Samuel Edwards, Engine Driver, and cause of death was Bronchitis, senile decay certified. The informant was Sarah Roberts, present at death of 8 Cooper Street, Toxteth Park. Sarah was buried in Toxteth Park Cemetery on 10 April 1866.
There is also an entry for a Samuel Edwards in the Toxteth Park Cemetery index and I have applied for a Death Certificate in the same year, 1859, with the hope that it is correct. I will let you know when I receive it from the GRO.
Best wishes
Sylvia