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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kerry => Topic started by: secondgenIrish on Monday 30 June 14 16:10 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm trying to find out when Maurice, who was my great grandfather, was born. He and his wife, Kate, nee Hurl(e)y appear in both the 1901 and 1911 censuses, and his age implies a birth around 1850 to 1855, but I can't find a birth in Kerry in that time frame on churchrecords/irishgenealogy.ie that matches.
I have assumed that he was born in Cromane, which falls under the Killorglin RC Parish.
I don't know the names of his parents either.
Any suggestions would be gratefully received.
secondgenIrish
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I cant seem to find a marriage for them on any of the free indexes so i suggest trying RootsIreland to find the marriage which you need for his fathers name.
I see a marriage on Irish Genealogy for Patrick Moriarty 1900 and Mary Griffin whos mother is down as Catherine Healy probably a mistranscription but seem to be the parents of the children with Maurice in 1911.
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Daithi,
Thanks for taking the trouble to look for Maurice's birth (and parents....!). I had seen that marriage and that is indeed a case of transcription error, as following on from that marriage, there are three children, two of whom are living with Maurice and Kate in the 1911 census (but no sign of the parents or oldest child in 1911 - another mystery, but probably the result of the flu epidemic of 1908).
According to the 1911 census Maurice and Kate had four children, two of whom survived to 1911. I have found records in Irish Genealogy's Church records for two of them, but not Mary from this marriage record, so I'll just have to keep looking.
Looking further afield A*****.com had records pointing to a civil marriage record for Maurice and Kate (basically, two people with those names appear on the same page in the index!) in 1878, so I'll have to write to the local registration office in Killarney and see what turns up.
Thanks again,
Mike
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I see that marriage now i was searching for Catherine Hurly
Marriage
April June 1878
Killarney
Vol 5 page 161
Maurice Griffin match Kate Hurly
Available on line from G. R. O . Roscommon.
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Family Search Births and Baptisms 1620 to 1881
Mary Griffin born 5 Dec 1879 ,Cromane,Kerry ,to Maurice Griffin and Kate Hurly
Due to the late December birth she would not have been registered till 1880
Civil reference to same birth
Mary Griffin
Jan March 1880
Killarney
Vol 5 page 346.
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Daithi,
Thanks very much for the birth information for Mary Griffin. I shall be able to include that when I get on the GRO website. It's sad to think that she did not make it to 30 years of age.
What's weird is that there is no reference to her baptism in the Killorglin registers on Irish Genealogy. Come to that, there are no references to Killorglin baptisms at all in the last quarter of 1879.
Hang on, light bulb moment - the present church of St. James in Killorglin dates from 1885 (I think), so is it possible that the congregation was travelling to other parishes for weddings baptisms and funerals whilst the building work was under way?
Anyway, thanks again,
Mike
P.S. The GRO website did not accept dates before 1920 for a marriage cert., so I gave them the office, dates and volume and page in the section where the church / R.O. details are required. I'll let you know what happens.
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See search box at top of page here enter ''Ordering Certs''
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I received Maurice and Kate's marriage certificate yesterday, and he was 23 when they married in 1878, so that implies a birth in 1854 or 55, which ties in with the ages recorded on the 1901 and 1911 censuses, and I have his father's name (Denis) and profession (weaver), which will help to narrow things a bit more.
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Looks like he was fond of the gargle ,the prison registers give his birth as circa 1854 drunk and disorderly and being found on licenced premises.
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Yes, I had seen those, and noted that someone else had identified him with his wife through the AKA fields. That may explain why the 1901 census shows the house as Class 3 when most of the neighbours' were Class 2.
Apparently, being a tailor then meant attending the fair days to deliver garments made, and to attract new custom. That probably meant having a drink with those clients who were flush with cash from selling cattle or horses, and then buying a round or several for them...and one thing led to another....
I found an article in the "Kerryman" in 1912 where he had been assaulted by a woman who had hit him with a pike, and she was fined 12s 6d plus costs, and he was fined 2s 6d plus costs.
The effects on the family lingered, his son (my grandfather) was also a tailor, but he made sure that when he got paid, the bills were paid and the groceries bought before he went for a drink with the clientele, and my father and his brothers were Pioneers, or generally abstemious.
Mind you, there is still no sign of Maurice's birth in the online Church records. Looks like I'll have to write to the parish.
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A Denis Griffin of Cromane married Catherine Rahilly 19 Jan 1845 in Killorglin.
Just keep for reference may be his parents.
No children for this couple showing up.
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Jeremiah (1846), Timothy (1848), Denis (1860), but no Maurice in 54/55!
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Also, a Denis Griffin was born to Denis Griffin and Honora Shea on 10 January 1836. An outside bet to be Maurice's father.
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This is a pretty comprehensive collection of one Griffin family (from which I am descended) primarily focused around Glenbeigh, Co Kerry. While I have looked up your names and found no clear matches, it might help you discount people you find in the future.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=wdromanski&recno=15706
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Have you actually viewed any of the prison regs for Maurice.
My great grandfather was in Wexford prison 1900/1901 lived at Donard but his prison file revealed that he was born in Ballywilliam nr New Ross.
You never know what details you will find till you view them.
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Nettie and Daithi,
Thank you very much for your suggestions, which I will follow up. Daithi, you've reminded me of a conversation I had with a very old lady forty years or so ago, who knew my father's family. She said that Kate was married to a "foreigner".
I never found out if she meant that Maurice came from abroad, just the other side of town, or worse, maybe Cork!
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I think that I will have to park this issue for now, but before I do, I note that the irishgenealogy.ie website states that the Killorglin parish, which includes Cromane Upper, says that it has birth records from 1798 to 1911.
But there is definitely a gap in the 1850s, which may simply be because no records were kept. Some births for Killorglin people can be found in both Killarney and Glenbeigh, which suggests that perhaps the physical state of the church was low. Also, we should not forget that the 1840s were the Hungry Forties, and the morale of the entire country would have been at a low ebb, and keeping records low on the list of priorities for both Church and people. The lassitude lasted a generation.
The parish priest from 1884 to 1916, Fr. Thomas Lawlor, was a very energetic man, and it seems that he may have been sent to Killorglin to prevent the parish going under completely. The man built six National (primary / elementary) schools in the parish within three years of taking over, and went on to tour the USA seeking funds for a new church in Killorglin, which was completed (if not wholly paid for) in the late 1880s.
He also rebuilt the Church at Cromane in 1912/13 before his death in 1916. he is buried under the altar in the Lady Chapel in St. James Church, Killorglin.
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A couple of updates:
1. Denis Griffin, married to Katherine Rahilly was a weaver.
2. Fr. Lawlor's predecessor as Parish Priest in Killorglin, died in January 1884. Strangely, there is a run of marriage records that start almost exactly after the old priest died, following a gap from the 1850s. So was the old priest simply not recording baptisms, marriages or deaths? Or did the parish records form part of his personal property, to be retained by his family?