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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Carybeth on Saturday 05 July 14 22:49 BST (UK)
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I was wondering if anyone can help please. Catherine Selina Whale (known as Selina Whale, married name subsequently Wilkins) was born circa 1827 in Stratford upon Avon area. I am trying to find her baptism, she may have been christened at Holy Trinity Church in SuA. Her father was a coal merchant, John Roberts Whale but I cannot find out who her mother was. To my knowledge Selina was an only child and her father died in 1837 aged 44. On the 1841 census, she is in an establishment run by Caroline and Emma Barnhurst (Caroline is later down as a witness on Selina's marriage certificate in 1847). Selina is down as being 11 yrs of age and I think this is a private girls school. On the census, it says 'Old Town, Stratford upon Avon'. Any help would be appreciated. ??? So I am making a presumption that she was baptised in SuA.
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Hi Carybeth,
As per my reply on your last post, John Roberts Whale married Elizabeth Roberts Gilbert (widow) in 1826 and she is more than likely the mother of Selina born 1827.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=691168.msg5350681#msg5350681
Jo :)
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Hi Carybeth,
As per my reply on your last post, John Roberts Whale married Elizabeth Roberts Gilbert (widow) in 1826 and she is more than likely the mother of Selina born 1827.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=691168.msg5350681#msg5350681
Jo :)
Hi Jo, I'm struggling with this match due to it being in Derbyshire, as it seems such a distance from Warwickshire. Cary :-\
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Hello Cary
Does this help at all:
Copy will of John Whale of Birmingham, coal-dealer, 10 May 1830, and copy will of John [Roberds] Whale of Stratford-upon-Avon, corn and coal dealer, 8 March 1837. With other papers, including.
- Abstract of title (1837) of the devisees in trust for sale under the will of John Roberds Whale to three houses in Little Colmore, from 1789; with sale particulars, 25 October 1837
- Draft conveyance of the same from the said devisees in trust to the Governors of King Edward VI Grammar School, Birmingham, 27 July 1839.
- Draft releases of shares in the residue of the estate to the said trustees, from Edward Harborne of Emscote, Warwick, miller, and Elizabeth his wife, née Whale (23 September 1841), Thomas Hughes of Coventry, maltster, and Mary Ann his wife, née Whale (11 November 1842), Henry Robert Wilkins of West Bromwich, co. Staffs., draper, and Selina his wife, née Whale (4 May 1848).
# The 3 Whale legatees are receiving their shares from John's will as they have reached 21.
Mary Ann Whale married Thomas Hughes in Coventry 1839.
She says she is from S on A & her father is William Whale Corn Factor.
1861 she's from S on A aged 40.
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In view of the will Jim found. What if Selina's mother was Mary Ann and she had remarried after John's death
Mary Ann Whale
Registration Year:
1839
Registration Quarter:
Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district:
Coventry
Inferred County:
Warwickshire
Volume:
16
Page:
495
Name
William Bailey
Elizabeth Beams
Robert Hincks
Thomas Hughes <<<<
George Moore
Mary Payne
Elizabeth Taylor
Mary Ann Whale <<<<
Edit I have found the marriage and Mary Ann says she was a spinster living Stratford Upon Avon. of full age father William Whale Cornfactor
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Elizabeth Whale also says her father was William Whale when she married Edward Harbourne in 1841 in Birmingham.
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Mary Ann Whale was born 1821 so can't be Selina's mother.
There's a will for William Whale 1822 S on A coal dealer, only mentions wife Letitia.
Executors are Letitia Whale & his father John Whale.
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Lets see what we can find about this family.
John Roberts Whale baptism.
John Roberts Whale
Baptism Date:
27 Oct 1793
Baptism Place:
Brailes,Warwick,England
Father:
John Whale
Mother:
Elisabeth
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Jo on the other thread was right.
The will for John Whale has Selina Whale listed as his only child (no middle name of Catherine mentioned), his brothers are given as Esau and William (deceased). Family search has a baptism for Esua and John to John and Elizabeth.
Jo :)
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I think we will have to accept this was his marriage.
John Roberts Whale married Elizabeth Sanders Gilbert, 19 Apr 1826, St Alkmunds, Derbyshire
Maybe a post on the Derbyshire board to see if anyone can find out any more about Elizabeth Sanders Gilbert?
I am presuming she came from Derby.
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Jim I was trying to work out the relationship between Mary Ann and Elizabeth Whale and John Roberts Whale.
I was guessing that their father William was John's brother but I can't find anything to prove or disprove that.
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They were brothers as mentioned in John's will with brother Esau mis. as Evan on Ancestry.
The Derby marriage must be right.
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I notice Elizabeth Gilbert was a widow when they married.
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Jim Yes, that does make it more difficult to find her.
I can see a death of a Elizabeth Whale in 1833 age 30 in Salford Priors PRs, but is 10 miles from Stratford Upon Avon too far to be correct?
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The NBI only shows William d.1822 & John Charles d.1837 in Stratford.
The Salford Priors Elizabeth was aged 30
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Elizabeth aged 30 in 1833 could still fit if she had married young and her first husband died soon after, she could have married from about 1819 onwards, but we are clutching at straws.
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I'm reading John's will just to make sure she's dead.
Edit:
She's definitely dead but might be buried in Derbys. if that where she came from
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Jim He went on a bit in his will,
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I'm not surprised most people died shortly after making a will they probably lost the will to live after reading it.
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Hello Cary
Does this help at all:
Copy will of John Whale of Birmingham, coal-dealer, 10 May 1830, and copy will of John [Roberds] Whale of Stratford-upon-Avon, corn and coal dealer, 8 March 1837. With other papers, including.
- Abstract of title (1837) of the devisees in trust for sale under the will of John Roberds Whale to three houses in Little Colmore, from 1789; with sale particulars, 25 October 1837
- Draft conveyance of the same from the said devisees in trust to the Governors of King Edward VI Grammar School, Birmingham, 27 July 1839.
- Draft releases of shares in the residue of the estate to the said trustees, from Edward Harborne of Emscote, Warwick, miller, and Elizabeth his wife, née Whale (23 September 1841), Thomas Hughes of Coventry, maltster, and Mary Ann his wife, née Whale (11 November 1842), Henry Robert Wilkins of West Bromwich, co. Staffs., draper, and Selina his wife, née Whale (4 May 1848).
# The 3 Whale legatees are receiving their shares from John's will as they have reached 21.
Mary Ann Whale married Thomas Hughes in Coventry 1839.
She says she is from S on A & her father is William Whale Corn Factor.
1861 she's from S on A aged 40.
Hi Jim
I already had Selina's father's will and had managed to unscrabble bits of it. I know that John Roberts Whale had a sister called Mary Whale born 1798, Mary Ann Whale may have been the daughter of one of John's brothers. Selina's full name on her marriage and death certificate is Catherine Selina, I am therefore wondering if she was named after her mother? Selina funnily enough lead a comfortable life but her children tended to be living with other relatives after the 1851 census and she died at the age of 49 in a posh area of Bath of alcoholic disease. Its her baptism that is puzzling me. ???
Thanks for your help.
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Mary Ann and Elizabeth were the daughters of John's brother William. His other brother was Esau.
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I can't find William's baptism, but these are John's siblings I can find all baptised at Brailes.
Esau 8/41792
Mary Rode 22/21795
Edward 5/2/1797
Mary 23/12/1798
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Mary Ann and Elizabeth were the daughters of John's brother William. His other brother was Esau.
Thank you.
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Her mother was Elizabeth Gilbert although that may not be her maiden name.
jim
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A long shot I know, but worth looking at I think:
The only "Gilbert" to "Elizabeth" marriage I could find in the right timeframe in Derby was Thomas Gilbert to Elizabeth Eley, 19 Sep 1825, Doveridge,Derby,England.
An Elizabeth Eley baptised at St Alkmunds (same church as John Roberts Whale marriage) 1793 d/o Christopher and Mary.
Jo :)
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I wondered about that one too.
I'm trying to find a Sanders connection as that was her middle name.
jim
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This is Christopher Eley's marriage.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKYD-RMZ
No obvious Sanders
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I've tried all the combinations of names & can only find this one
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NVWW-FH4
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Jim Problem is it's too late.
Now this is late 1835 but there is an Eley a Miller at Duffield, that trade keeps cropping up and to answer how did people travel look at coaches.
http://texts.wishful-thinking.org.uk/Pigot1835/Duffield.html
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All are possibilities - but I can't find a suitable marriage for any of them!
LANG ELIZABETH SANDERS 1800 —1800 Plymouth Baptism Register Harford, Devon, England
Edmonds Elizabeth Saunders 1798—1799 England & Wales Non-conformist baptisms Sheerness, Kent, England
WARE ELIZ SANDERS 1795 —1795 Plymouth Baptism Register Plymouth: St Andrew's, Devon, England
MITCHELL ELIZTH SAUNDERS 1803 — 1803 Hampshire baptisms Alverstoke, Hampshire, England
UPTON ELIZH SAUNDERS 1799 — 1799 Plymouth Baptism Register Plymouth: St Andrew's, Devon, England
West Charlotte Saunders Elizabeth 1796— 1796 Hertfordshire Baptisms Layston, England
Jo :)
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Hi Carybeth,
As per my reply on your last post, John Roberts Whale married Elizabeth Roberts Gilbert (widow) in 1826 and she is more than likely the mother of Selina born 1827.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=691168.msg5350681#msg5350681
Jo :)
Thank you. :)