RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Nairda on Saturday 19 July 14 19:28 BST (UK)
-
I have a grand uncle Robert James Walker born 28/02/1892, Tullylish, Co Down, who was living at Rectory Rd, Gateshead on Tyne in 1929 when he received his great war medals for service in Irish Guards. Have most of his Irish side up to 1909 when he joined the army. Would appreciate any help with his Gateshead, Durham ancestors.
-
Hi,
Could you give us any names, year of birth and any other info you have of the 'Gateshead' family that you are looking for please?
JJ
-
Are you looking for his children or do you think that some of his ancestors also came over to Gateshead from Ireland?
-
Have just recently discovered the Gateshead connection through a Medal Index Card. He was wounded and discharged in 1919 and had applied for additional clasp and rose for his medals from Gatehead address in 1929. Unfortunately I don't have any other family details of Gateshead connection. I assume he married and had family there. That would be the links that interest me. Or any help in the right direction,thanks
-
The only marriages I can find for a Robert James Walker in County Durham are in 1899 and 1900 so they are too early for your man. I cannot find a death in the Gateshead area that fits with your man either. Are you sure that the Gateshead chap is your Robert James Walker?
-
I am as certain as I can be. I have him on the Ireland census of 1901at Tullylish, then English census as a Guardsman in 1st Irish Guards with birthplace as Tullylish. The age data fits. The Gateshead address is from his Medal Index Card.
-
Perhaps the address where his medals were forwarded to was his 'lodging house' and therefore no real connection to Gateshead. Have you checked for a death in Ireland?
JJ
-
May I suggest that you contact Gateshead Libraries -
libraries@gateshead.gov.uk
Gateshead Central Library
Prince Consort Road, Gateshead, NE8 4LN
Tel: 0191 433 8430
http://www.localhistorygateshead.com
They may be able to advise you on the Gateshead electoral register for 86 Rectory Road in 1929.
JJ
-
OK, I am clearly misunderstanding something here as I cannot find him in an English census. Can you give us the census reference where you found him in Gateshead so we have a starting point for further research?
-
Th
OK, I am clearly misunderstanding something here as I cannot find him in an English census. Can you give us the census reference where you found him in Gateshead so we have a starting point for further research?
The only reference to Gateshead is the address on Robert James Walker's medal card. As per reply #3.
1901 - Ireland, from there he is an Irish Guard in London.
JJ
-
That was what I assumed to start with, but in post #5 Nairda refers to finding him in an English census.
-
That was what I assumed to start with, but in post #5 Nairda refers to finding him in an English census.
I think you will find that this is a reference to the 1911 census.
JJ
-
I think you will find that this is a reference to the 1911 census.
JJ
I drew that conclusion several posts ago JJ, but since I cannot find the record referred to I do not think I can contribute anything useful to this thread.
-
I found Robert in the English census 02/04/1911listed at the Irish Guards barracks at St George Hanover Square, London, England. He was listed in the Irish census of 1901. He had no previous connection to Gateshead other than through the MIC record showing an address at Gateshead. I assume he moved there after discharge from the army through wounds in 1919. I assume a possible marriage lead him to Gateshead.
-
Just a thought -
Have you managed to trace his siblings after the 1911 to see if they are in Gateshead?
JJ
-
Could he be the Robert j n walker who married in Gateshead mar.qtr 1922
-
Nairda
The address on the MIC have you had a google or researched it? it may have been a convalescent home as he was discharged wounds?
Ady
-
Could he be the Robert j n walker who married in Gateshead mar.qtr 1922
Death of the above
Robert J N Walker
Birth Date: abt 1880
Date of Registration - Sep 1953
Age at Death - 73
Registration district - Durham North eastern
Vol 1a Page 389
Birth year is slightly out, according to an online tree (which I presume is Nairda's) has Robert's birth as 25/02/1892.
Also Robert J N Walker was in the Durham Light Infantry, Labour Corps
JJ
-
No, I've just made the link to Gateshead. In the meantime during this post I have a possible death link to a Robert J Walker in the first quarter of 1957 aged 65 yrs, which would equate to his birth date of 1892. Registered in district "Newcastle T". What does that T mean.
-
Newcastle T is Newcastle-upon-Tyne
-
That death is for Robert James Walker of 25 Craigside Gardens, Lobley Hill Gateshead, died 2 June 1957, The Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle upon Tyne, Alice Lucy Walker (widow).
Could be your man :)
JJ
-
If he lived in Gateshead but the death was registered in Newcastle then it is very likely that he died in hospital.
-
It would seem the connection to Alice Lucy Walker would confirm this is my grand uncle. A check of the Ulster Convenant signed on 28/09/1912 has R J Walker signature. Significantly on the female declaration there is a signature of Alice Lucy Walker. I could never find any previous link to her to my family. It would seem R J was married before the Great War and certainly prior to Sept 1912. I appreciate the links so far. I would also appreciate any further info or links anyone could provide. Thanks
-
Good to hear that you have found the connection between Alice Lucy and your great uncle Robert James Walker.
By my calculations it would appear that they married between 2 April 2011 and 28 September 1912.
There is a marriage of a Robert J Walker Sep 1912 to Alice Alvey -
Nottingham 7b 661.
Pity it's not a marriage in Gateshead and that Alice is not Alice L, however I would be very tempted to purchase the marriage cert to see if it's the correct Robert.
JJ
-
Yes that could be them. Followed by a visit home to show of his new wife to his family in Terryhoogan, Scarva on the 28/09/1912.
-
I have a great uncle who is noted in the Jun 1921 Census of England & Wales residing at 82 School Terrace, Gateshead
Robert James Walker 29 yrs 4 months, Police Constable, Gateshead Council, Alice Lucy Walker 29yrs, 1892 born Gloucestershire.
Is there any research source/records available for Gateshead Police for 1920-1939. He is listed later in the 1939 Register as an electric tram driver.
-
Gateshead electoral register
I had a quick look and so far can see a Robert James Walker and Alice Lucy Walker at 86 Rectory Road
in 1928, there was also a Patrick Lennon at the same address
Robert James and Alice Lucy were still listed there in 1931, two other people at that address John Kenny and Margaret Kenny
I have no idea if the other folk listed were lodgers or if it was a house split into more than one area of occupation/rental
Those are the latest two registers I currently have access to.
Boo
-
I have a great uncle who is noted in the Jun 1921 Census of England & Wales residing at 82 School Terrace, Gateshead
Robert James Walker 29 yrs 4 months, Police Constable, Gateshead Council, Alice Lucy Walker 29yrs, 1892 born Gloucestershire.
Is there any research source/records available for Gateshead Police for 1920-1939. He is listed later in the 1939 Register as an electric tram driver.
Tyne and Wear Archives user guides
https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/user-guides-and-information
choose the guide for Law and Order
the download happens automatically and on page 7 there is info on what they hold for Gateshead Borough Constabulary
EDIT this is their catalogue entry which gives more idea (once you drill down) of the dates ofeach type of record
https://calmview.twmuseums.org.uk/calmview/TreeBrowse.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&field=RefNo&key=PA.GA
NB their opening times are very limited and you have to book an appointment, it seems the originals are available to view but would need to be ordered in advance, so if you can visit I'd suggest that a one day camera licence would be your cheapest option at £10
For them to find the records for you remotely its a research charge of £30/hour and their copying charges are here
https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/copying
Boo
-
Boo,
Thank you for your time, searches and information. That has been helpful.
I have also found this site https://www.gatesheadpolicehistory.org/history. It has the Force Registers for Gateshead Police Force between 1836 to 1899 and men and women between 1900 to 1968.
Unfortunately the 1900 to 1968 register is a work in progress, last updated in 2021.
-
A few snippets of info
There is a marriage in 1914 on Scotland's People which is a contender (a copy is available on an ancestry tree) in Blythwood, Glasgow
for a Robert James Walker (? that name is not clear) and an Aiice Cox
They married by declaration on 2 Jan 1914 in the presence of David Walker ? (that name is not clear), Iron Moulder and Robert Downs, coal miner and then paid the Sheriffs Warrant to have it entered in the register on Jan 9 1914
Robert was a Bachelor, aged 21 of 2 Allan Place Longloan and gave his occupation as Bricklayers labourer - which is odd if he was still in the army ?
his parents were James Walker, farm labourer and Jane Eliza Walker Maiden Surname Connolly
Alice was 21 a domestic servant and a spinster of 4 Allan Place, Longloan
her parents were James Cox land steward and Mary Cox MS Taylor
Newcastle Evening Chronicle
4 Jun 1957, page 18 col 4
Deaths
WALKER Lobley Hill, 25 Cragside Gardens June 2 (suddenly) aged 65 years.
Robert James Beloved husband of Alice and dear father of Veronica, Beatrice and George and grandchildren
Cremation West Road Thursday 1.35 leaving residence 12.45 for service at All Saints Church 1pm. Funeral private.
EDIT - wrong link, sorry, will go look for the right one!
West Road Crematorium, Newcastle, index to cremations
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3VC-J54V?i=10&cat=828657
Added
and I did look, but must have had a senior moment when I got that entry its a different man with the same name who died over a year later and though I have tried I can't find the index entries for 'W' in 1957, sorry. I think they may have been missed from the filming. `this is the catalogue entry if anyone else wants to have a go.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/828657?availability=Family%20History%20Library
entry in West Road Book of Remembrance
https://www.remembrance-books.com/Newcastle/pages/060201l.jpg
Newcastle Evening Chronicle
2 Jun 1958, page 15 col 1
In Memoriam
WALKER (Lobley Hill) Treasured memories of my darling husband and father Robert James died June 2 1957.
We often think of you and think of how you died, To think you could not say goodbye before you closed your eyes.
God took you home it was His Will, But why so sudden we wonder still. Forget him no, we never shall. So dearly loved and missed by your loving wife, daughters, sons, daughters in law, sons in law and grandchildren.
Newcastle Evening Chronicle
2 Jun 1959, page 14 col 4
In Memoriam
WALKER (Lobley Hill) In loving memory of father, Robert James, died June 2 1957, We are thinking of you dear father. Thinking of the past. Seeing you in memory as we saw you last. Loved and remembered by his daughter Beatrice son in law Arthur and grandchildren.
and apologies, I did know about that gateshead police history site but also knew that the time frame you need isn't yet available. May be worth contacting them though to enquire if/when it will be updated.
Boo
-
A little more corroboration
The 2 pension index cards for Robert James Walker, Pte 3436 of the Irish Guards
1 says he's to get 13/- a week from 07.08.19 and his address on that one is c/o/ Chief Constable, Gateshead, Co Durham
so that fits in with him being a policeman in 1921
and the other gives year of birth as 1892, Pte 3436 Irish Guards, married
pension to start 07.02.1919 , disability Gun Shot Wound to knee
and an address of 19 Hylton Street, Gateshead on Tyne
Boo
-
Thanks again for your research. The wedding in Scotland is a mystery? All the names/relationships seem correct? Yet occupation is incorrect. The mother has already given birth to two children in Ireland (David in Jun 1912) (Emily Veronica 19 Dec 1914) Interestingly on the birth record for 1914 it is recorded that Robert is at the front in Flanders. In 1912 she signs the Ulster Covenant as Alice Lucy Walker and the birth in 1912 mother is recorded as Alice Walker nee Cox.
So the marriage and its location in Scotland seems at mystery? He enlisted in Irish Guards in 1909, had children to Alice Lucy back in his home at Scarva in Ireland during his time in the army.
-
Do you have Robert James' service record? Where does the info about when he enlisted come from?
Do you know his occupation prior to enlisting?
Have you found Alice in any census returns, in any country :-) prior to the 1921 you mentioned?
I agree that its puzzling, but its not the first time I've seen a marriage 'after' the first couple of children.
Many theoretical (but probably not provable) scenarios
1 He gave his pre army, civil occupation
2 They had previously (before the children) married in Scotland by declaration, but not had it entered in the register. Then when war was becoming more likely they did it again, this time getting a certificate as they wanted to make things official.
3 One or the other had previously been legally married and either this was technically a bigamous marriage (again in light of him possibly being killed in battle) or the previous spouse had died and they were then both free to marry?
As I said, everything is possible but proving it is a different matter.
If the parents of the couple are correct then that would be a big plus for this being your couple though
Boo
-
i don't have his service record. The date of enlistment came from his Silver Wound Badge record as 10/09/1909 discharged 06/08/1919. He would have been 17 on enlistment. Haven't found Alice in census returns.
From another site picked up that Hope Street, Glasgow was some form of pre registrars office or solicitors office that officially recognised a marriage via a Warrant of Sheriffs Substitute.
I therefore, surmise he possibly didn't have formal permission to marry as he was in the army and gave the Bricklayers Labourer to cover for being a soldier. As the outbreak of war was likely he probably wanted a formal record of marriage as two children had already been born in the event of his death in service. The other site referred to a Scots Guardsman in London and a maid travelling to Hope Street in similar circumstances.