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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Janice Jones on Sunday 17 August 14 09:58 BST (UK)
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Hi, i hope you can help a novice please.
I've started looking along my Dad's Mum's line of the family.
I have a photocopy of her birth certificate (Vesta Vick) so I know her parents names (Thomas and Elizabeth) and Dad remembers the names of some Aunts etc so I know I've found the right people on the 1911 Census but by then Elizabeth was a widow now 43 - her 2 eldest children were Ethel 22 and Thomas 21.
I have a photocopy of Thomas and Elizabeth's marriage certificate in Middlesex, April 1988 when he was 27 which states his father was also called Thomas Vick and was a Tailor.
The 1891 Census, in London, shows Thomas Vick age 30 was born in Cheltenham plus wife Elizabeth, 23, daughter Ethel 2 and son Thomas 1 all born in London. So that looks pretty promising.
The only Thomas Vick born around 1860 in Cheltenham I can find was born to a Thomas Vick (who was born in Malmesbury) and Ann (formerly Oakley, & with 2 sons by a previous marriage) and is on the 1861 Census with them as a 1 year old with a sister Ellen aged 3.
By 1871 Ann Vick with one son of previous marriage, daughter Ellen & son Thomas of the right age is down as the Head and a widow.
I cannot find a death registered for Thomas Vick in the appropriate timescale.
There is a Thomas Vick of the right age and born in Malmesbury as a boarder with Selina Pike in Trowbridge - the handwriting is difficult but looks like both classed as unmarried.
The 1881 Census shows Selina Pike married to a Thomas Vick apparently born in Trowbridge and 1 year younger than I'd have expected.
Is this the right Thomas Vick - how can I be fairly sure?
Has he been a naughty boy?
Are there other avenues I can check, for this line and the other lines of the family, so that I can be sure I have the right people, or can you never be really sure?
My head hurts trying to work this out!!
Any help or advice offered is welcome
Many thanks
Jan
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um . was looking at the family in 1911 and following some of the siblings to get a feel for the family etc. this appears to be sister mabel.
Mabel Hilda Vick bp 8 Apr 1894, parents Thomas & Elizabeth Vick at St Peter Dartmouth Park Hill
dad Thomas is down as a traveller. do you know if mabel had a middle name and did she marry Sidney woodcock?
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Sorry I don't know if Mabel had a middle name - Dad remembers his Aunt Mabel vaguely, and that she was a bit younger than Aunt Ethel, but can't recall a middle name at all.
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looking at the marriage entry of Thomas and Elizabeth thomas is given as a traveller.
it doesn't affect going back and I can see what you can see and it does look promising. I will investigate further but I did find something which muddies the water slightly. mabel hilda marries Sidney woodcock and there is a oath of allegiance signed for this marraige. I can send you a copy of the image if you have not seen it and pm me an email address. in it mabel hilda as a minor states that she has no father and is in guardianship and that her natural mother phoebe burton has agreed to the marriage. now this doesn't fit with her baptism at all. I cant find another mabel vick around
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strangely the only other baptism I can see is Arthur Sydney in 1892
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Have you seen these;
1871
Cheltenham
Samuel Vick/59/tetbury/tailor
Eliza/56/Wiltshire
Peter Oakley/25/Cheltenham
Mary A/25
Edward/2
Mary A/4m
1881
Balsall Heath B'ham
Peter Oakley/36/cheltenham
Mary A/37
Eliza Vick/mother-in-law/66/Wiltshire
Should read grandmother-in-law as she was Thomas' mother.
Peter Oakley married Mary Ann Vick 1867 Cheltenham.
So Peter Oakley married Thomas Vick Snr's. sister Mary Ann.
In 1861 Thomas Vick Snr. is living with Peter's mother Ann Oakley.
This looks like Thomas Vick Snr's. death:
Mar 1894
Vick Thomas 61 Melksham 5a 93
1891 Thomas Snr. is listed as single.
It doesn't look like Thomas Snr. married either of these women.
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Could Thomas, born about 1861 and married to Elizabeth, have died in the Workhouse?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1559/31362_190215-01341/90809?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
The age is 10 years out and his youngest child would have been 3 years old
I can't find any other record of this Thomas's death
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It looks like him.
Their youngest child Doris was born 1906 & Elizabeth was widowed by 1911.
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Also an interesting coincidence, looking at Ann's family I see she was married to Richard Oakley who in 1861 is living with his daughter Jane aged 10 & next door is my Great grandmother Julie Ann Coley.
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That is a coincidence and this last post drew me back to look at your earlier post again, which I hadn't read to the end before - don't know how I missed it.
Need to sort out in my head where this leaves me - and Messrs Thomas Vick!
Thanks
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If this helps:
1871 Cheltenham
Samuel Vick/59
Eliza/56
Peter Oakley/25 (Ann's son)
Mary Ann/25 (Thomas' sister)
Edward/2
Mary A/4 m.
1871 Cheltenham
Ann Vick/50
Robert Oakley/17 (Ann's other son)
Ellen Vick/13
Thomas Vick/11
George Vick/8
1871 Trowbridge
Selina Pike/30
Thomas Vick/36
1871 Balsall Heath
Richard Oakley/63 (Ann's husband)
Elizabeth/40
Helen/8
Alfred/6
Henry/4
So Richard & Ann Oakley have split up with Peter & Robert going with her & Jane (1861 census) staying with Richard.
Ann takes up with Thomas Vick & starts another family.
Richard does likewise with Elizabeth Unknown.
Thomas Vick leaves Ann & takes up with Selina Pike.
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Sorry to be thick - where do Samuel & Eliza come into it?
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Samuel & Eliza Vick are Thomas Vick Snr's. parents.
Just to add to the confusion it looks like Richard Oakley was married before to an Ann Brazenore & had 2 children Bethia & John.
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Following on, Richard Oakley who I believe married Anne Brazenore in Pontesbury Salop was widowed in 1849 & came to B'ham where in 1851 he married Ann Day.
Details:
Sept.8 1851 St.Peter's B'ham
Richard Oakley/45/widower/gardener/Barr St/fa.Richard Oakley/farmer
Ann Day/35/spinster/Barr. st./fa. William Day/labourer
Wit:
George & Maria Hughes
All signed in own hand.
So I think Ann Vick/Oakley is Ann Day.
It follows that Peter Oakley is Ann's step-son.
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I need a lie down in a darkened room with a vinegar rag on my forehead!
Glos BMD Index does indeed give Tom's MMN as Day.
Thomas VICK mms DAY 1860 Cheltenham
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pass the vinegar rag - it looks like I'm related to half of Gloucestershire!
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I now have a wider grasp of the Thomas Snr generation but I'd still like to know how I can be sure the record of the death of Thomas Vick (jnr) is correct?
many thanks
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The death register page for St. Pancras which you posted actually continues (page not shown) but you can see the beginning of that page on the right hand side and shows occupations. For Thomas Vick it has 'Shop f.....' (Shop fitter perhaps). Does this tie in with Thomas' occupation on Vesta's birth certificate?
Annette
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On his marriage certificate he was down as a traveller and on Vesta's birth certificate as a commission agent, and on a census I think a sewing machine agent. maybe he was a travelling salesman of one kind or another so no not a shop fitter
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Sometimes what you can't find can be as significant as what you can.
This Thomas is dying in the right place at the right time & I can't see another Thomas Vick anywhere near.
The only 2 Thomas Vick's born around 1850 are in the Isle of Man & Yardley B'ham.
Also ages on death certs. are notoriously unreliable.
jim
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jim1 is exactly right - and the only 2 other possibilities for a ca.1850 birthdate that he mentions are both still alive in 1911.
Also, all we know is that he was a 'shop f...' on the 1909 death entry. Could be Shop Fitters Agent or Salesman - might not even be 'fitter' at all, was just my guess. He's not consistent with his occupation anyway.
Think you need to purchase the certificate. The informant of his death may well be a family member.
Annette
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Thanks all
:)
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Good Morning
I'm trying to tie up some loose ends with this part of the family, and check what I have so far.
2 questions:
1) Reply 13 say "Richard Oakley who I believe married Anne Brazenore in Pontesbury Salop was widowed in 1849 & came to B'ham where in 1851 he married Ann Day."
The best match so far that I have found would be for Anne B to have died in Newest 1848 (Vol11 page 265).
Have I missed out on a better match?
2) Besides Peter and Jane Oakley there also seems to be a brother Robert Oakley
Cheltenham 1861 Census age 9 (born Cheltenham) living with Thomas Vick, Ann Vick, Ellen Vick, Thomas Vick, Peter Oakley.
Cheltenham 1871 Census age 17 (born Birmingham) living with Ann Vick
Ellen Vick, Thomas Vick (age 11) & George Vick
Hopefully they are the same person and there's a reason for the different birth places give, and I can't find a birth record for him anywhere!
Any ideas?
Many thanks
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Having a quick look Peter Oakley is listed as son-in-law. This is an alternative for step-son.
So Ann Vick appears to be Ann Oakley nee Day.
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+ Thomas Vick's mother is listed as Day rather than Oakley so Peter may also be Day.
Edit:
I can see 2 children mmn Day;
1851 Jane b. Aston
1853 Alfred b. B'ham
I can't see an appropriate death for Alfred so maybe he's calling himself Peter or Robert.
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yes Thomas Vick is Ann Day's son but Peter Oakley is Anne Brazenor's son
I incorrectly said "So he would have been born between Jane and Peter" Robert was born after Jane.
Ann day would be his mother but heaven knows who his father is and I can'd find a birth record
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Robert & Alfred may be the same person.
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Having a quick look Peter Oakley is listed as son-in-law. This is an alternative for step-son.
So Ann Vick appears to be Ann Oakley nee Day.
I can't see any births registered for Peter or Robert ???
Gloucester BMD have these with mmn Oakley/Day
VICK Ellen OAKLEY 1857 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 37 415
VICK Ellen DAY 1857 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 37 415
VICK George DAY 1862 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 46 497
for info. ann's death
Ann Oakley Vick, age 70 9 Northfield Terrace
Burial Date: 20 Oct 1896 St Mary’s cheltenham
Register Type: Parish Registers
Is this another marriage for Richard Oakley or just another with the same name ???
20 May 1861 Birmingham, St Jude, Warwickshire, England
Richard Oakley 52 widower occ packer Father: Richard Oakley occ farmer
Spouse: Elizabeth Hemming
Alfred Albert OAKLEY mmn HEMMING
1864 D Quarter in KINGS NORTON
Henry Howard OAKLEY mmn HEMMING
1866 D Quarter in KINGS NORTON
from GRO indexes showing mmn
added - Richard's age 63 and occupation on 1871 census with Elizabeth is a Gardener -
Helen Amelia OAKLEY mmn HEMMING1862 D Quarter
The Richard Oakley marriage to Elizabeth is available to view online perhaps comparing the signature of both Richard Oakley's to see if they look similar :-\
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now you mention it I don't have Peter's birth record but I do have consistant census records and a death record
Yep, I think Richard married again too!
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Here's his baptism
Peter Mason Baptism 3 Aug 1846 Cheltenham, St Mary, Gloucestershire
Mother: Ann, single woman
Register Type: Parish Registers
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Thanks for looking, 'cos I'm stumped :(
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Just realized I'd deleted my original post ::)
When adding baptism of the Peter Mason born 1846
MASON, PETER -
1846 J Quarter in THE CHELTENHAM UNION Volume 11 Page 229
1871 census Robert Oakley age 17 underneath Ann Vick written in brackets
(son of first husband)
but I cannot find birth registered for Peter or Robert in surname of Oakley ???
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Nor me.
I can find a Robert day with mothers maiden name of Day but it's way across the country
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I'm returning to this thread as I have another dilemma>
From Reply 13 "Following on, Richard Oakley who I believe married Anne Brazenore in Pontesbury Salop was widowed in 1849 & came to B'ham where in 1851 he married Ann Day"
I have turned up 2 1951 Census which could both be Richard Oakley and family!
1. with Ann Brazenor and family:
Name: Ann Oakley
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Richard Oakley
Gender: Female
Where born: Pornsbury, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Stottesdon
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Cleobury Mortimer
Sub-registration district: Cleobury Mortimer
ED, institution, or vessel: 1d
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 1985
Folio: 242
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Oakley 50
Ann Oakley 45
Bethich Oakley 20
John Oakley 19
2. with Ann Day and son Peter?
Name Richd Oakley
Age 45
Estimated Birth Yearabt 1806
Relation Head
Spouse's Name Ann Oakley
Gender Male
Where born
Pohlesby, Shropshire, England
Civil parish Aston
Ecclesiastical parish Bordesley Trinity
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps11599
Town Deritend and Bordesley
County/Island Warwickshire
Country England
Registration district Aston
Sub-registration district Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel 2a
Household schedule number112
Piece 2060
Folio 310
Page number 29
Household Members 9257706
Household Members
Name Richd Oakley Age 45
Name Ann Oakley Age 36
Name Peter Oakley Age 5
Can anyone give me any direction?
Many thanks
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Number 2 is 'your' Richard Oakley and Ann (nee Day) - already living as man and wife when they didn't marry until 3/9/1851! Richard a gardener on this 1851 census and also on the marriage certificate.
Annette
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1861 Piece: 1799 Folio: 7 Page Number: 7
Thomas Vick 26 Malmesbury Wiltshire
Ann Vick 38
Peter Oakley 15
Robert Oakley 9
Ellen Vick 3
Thomas Vick 1
all others born Cheltenham
VICK, THOMAS mmn DAY
1860 M Quarter in CHELTENHAM Volume 06A Page 422
Ann Oakley VICK Aage 70
9 Northfield Terrace Cheltenham
Buried St Mary Cheltenham 20th October 1896
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Thank you.
It is trying to corroborate the first husband of Ann Day - Richard Oakley, and who his first wife was, and the parentage of Peter and Robert Oakley that is giving me trouble now.
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It is trying to corroborate the first husband of Ann Day - Richard Oakley, and who his first wife was, and the parentage of Peter and Robert Oakley that is giving me trouble now.
From their marriage Richard Oakley's father also named Richard, Farmer &
Ann Day's father named William Day, Labourer, witnesses George & Maria Hughes
Do you have Richard Oakley & Ann Day on the 1841 census?
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No I can't find Ann in the 1841 census - unless she is the 15 year old servant Ann Day in the 1841 Census
Piece: 377
Book: 3
Folio: 17
Page Number: 29
The only likely birth record I can find is for a baptism of Mary Ann Day - parents William and Eleanor on 2 Jan 1827
I'm intrigued by Richard Oakley her first husband - if he is the Richard who married Ann Brazenor and had children Bethick/Bethia and John they are still together on the 1851 Census when he's married to Ann Day. So is he bigamous or is there a different first wife that I can't find?
Confused!
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I'm not sure how this can all be unravelled due to fibs told i.e. Ann Day was 35 when she married Richard Oakley in 1851 (bc.1816), but in 1861 she states she is 38 (bc.1823) and unregistered births for Peter Oakley and Robert Oakley. Seems safe to say that Robert bc.1852 was the son of Richard Oakley and Ann Day as born after their marriage, but can find no actual proof re. Peter Oakley as not registered or baptised, although the likelihood is that he was a son of Richard Oakley and his first wife, whoever she was.
Just to make it even worse - Peter Oakley married a Mary Ann Vick (bc.1846 Cheltenham) in 1867. Mary Ann Vick was the daughter of a Samuel and Eliza Vick, and the 2nd husband of Ann Day (Thomas Vick bc.1835 Malmesbury, Wiltshire) was an older brother of Mary Ann, i.e. Peter Oakley married his stepfather's younger sister.
Annette