RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: Hatter99 on Thursday 04 September 14 15:22 BST (UK)
-
First post, I'm trying to find the marriage for a Thomas Lisle to an Ann Stafford also when he emigrated to Australia.
Have obtained the Australian death certificate and this shows he died 28 February 1881 in Hospital in Gipps Ward, City of Melbourne aged 50 years. Father shown as William Lisle.
Also shows he'd been in Victoria 29 years and had married at age 27 years. Although the certificate says he was born in Staffordshire pretty sure this is incorrect as couldn't find a birth in that county for a Thomas Lisle. And the birth year and father tie in with a Thomas Lisle baptised in Northumberland 31 January 1830 who disappears after the 1851 census.
Any help would be much appreciated.
-
Well he looks like the most promising as he's pretty much the only Thomas b.c.1830 with a father William.
In 1861 the family are still together minus Thomas.
The numbers suggest he emigrated about 1852.
Do you have a occupation for either Thomas or William ?
-
Jim1,
His father William was a Husbandman, shown as a farmer on the baptism.
-
His father William was a Husbandman, shown as a farmer on the baptism.
Does the occupation of husbandman come from information in Australia or have you got it from the census ?
-
Jim1,
The occupation is from the baptism of Thomas, William is shown an as agricultural labourer, a hedger and a husbandman on the various census. When William died in 1866 his occupation is shown as a farm steward.
The family are all connected to farming in various roles until they start becoming miners in the 1880's when they some start working in the mining industry.
-
An ag. lab. & husbandman are different occupations but he's still a possibility.
I'm not quite sure you will be able to say for definite.
-
Do you have the birth certificate for a child born to this couple (in Victoria?)
It will have ages and birthplaces for parents, fathers occupation, and previous issue.
What age is Ann at death......which would suggest her age at birth of first child....she might have married as widow...or not married at all.......have previous children?
Try the certificate for the first born child........ to find information about parents.
-
Wivenhoe, I've taken your advice and obtained the birth certificate for the daughter Anne Elizabeth Lisle who is born 28 October 1858 in Boroondara, Victoria. Father is shown as Thomas Lisle a Butcher aged abt. 27 and born in Newcastle, England the mother is Ann Lisle nee Stafford aged abt.26 born in Leicester, England. The certificate also says they married in Melbourne in 1857.
(I have assumed that the writing in front of the age says abt.)
So it still looks as it is the Thomas Lisle that I'm trying to trace even allowing for the difference in the age and place of birth.
When Thomas dies in 1881 his occupation is that of a farmer.
I found three marriages for the name Stafford between 1854 and 1860 one Mary Ann, one Annie and one Anne. None married a Lisle.
The only Lisle is a Richard who married in 1854 and not to a Stafford.
Any more suggestions most welcome.
-
I can't work out if you are going backwards or forwards. We seem to be looking for someone who was on a 1841 census in Northumberland or Newcastle England. Forgive me but I though Newcastle was in Northumberland county.
Some records for Victoria are on Indexes for NSW as it was still a part of NSW until I believe 1854, someone correct me. ::)
So both indexes would need to be checked, good luck with the New advanced NSW one's.
It might be best to put down, working our way back, the information you actually know of.
Neil
-
I wonder if you have the right Thomas LISLE. There is a 1850 marriage for a Thomas LISLE to an Ellen LIVINGSTON in Armidale NSW and a 1859 death of a Thomas LISLE in Armidale NSW.?
There could also be misinformation with that name, as you could spell it more than one way. IE LYLE.
Neil
MODIFIED.
Could be this fellow above. ???
Thomas Lisle, one of 280 convicts transported on the Asia, 20 July 1837. ::)
-
Hi Hatter, not answering your query but I'm posting this in case you don't already have it.
Burial of Thomas Lisle, wife Ann and son Thomas in the same plot at Kew Cemetery, Boroondara. Just type Lisle into the search box.
http://www.kewcemetery.com.au/FindGrave.aspx
-
Missing person advertisement in 1857 for Thomas LISLE butcher
Heading to Melbourne (Port Phillip) from Sydney
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/7137783?
Sue
Same man?
Wivenhoe, I've taken your advice and obtained the birth certificate for the daughter Anne Elizabeth Lisle who is born 28 October 1858 in Boroondara, Victoria. Father is shown as Thomas Lisle a Butcher aged abt. 27
-
There is no marriage for Thomas LISLE to Ann STAFFORD on the Victorian indexes.
Births
LISLE Annie Elizabeth
Father Thomas Mother Ann STAFFORD
At Kew 1858 Reg#14886
LISLE Emily
Father Thomas Mother Ann STAFFORD
At Bulleen 1861 Reg#609
LISLE Alice
Father Thomas Mother Ann STAFFORD
At Bulleen 1864 Reg#9203
LISLE Minnie
Father Thomas Mother Ann STAFFORD
At Doncaster 1865 Reg#2035 Died aged 1 year 1866 Reg#2472
LISLE Thomas Christopher
Father Thomas Mother Ann STAFFORD
At Doncaster 1870 Reg#22689
LISLE Helen Charlotte
Father Thomas Mother Ann STAFFORD
At Doncaster 1875 Reg#15339
and Thomas's death for which you have the certificate.
LISLE Thomas
Father William
At Melbourne South
1881 50 years Reg#2099
Possibly Thomas's wife
LISLE Ann 29 years
Hospital record
28 Jun 1862
Melbourne, Victoria
Discharged 11 Jul 1862
Patients in Melbourne Hospital 1856-1905
I would suggest that after reading Thomas's death certificate on a public tree that it is possible the Police Constable at the inquest into his death, has confused Ann's surname STAFFORD with the county Staffordshire in England. Information on death certificates is unreliable and especially if given by someone who is not family. On the issue column under children's names...deceased 1 particulars unknown. If Ann had been giving the information she would have known the name of the deceased child....so who gave Thomas's and Ann's details to the PC?
Thomas injured his foot and died from the infection in hospital. The Police Constable attending the inquest was the informant on the death certificate.
Inquest Index
LISLE Thomas
50 years Melbourne 1881 Ref#166
Cause Pyaemia
It would be interesting to see the parental details on the other birth certificates especially the date of their marriage ;).
I wonder what marriage info is on this cert - possibly not accurate anyway. Strange that family wouldn't know her maiden name.
Death
LISLE Ann
Parents unknown
At Doncaster 80 years 1913 Reg#9100
Assisted Immigrant Arrivals
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
STAFFORD Anne 24 years arrived 3 Nov 1854 on the APOLLINE Book 11 Page 105 - another resource shows her place of birth as Fermanagh; Religion Church of England and she could only read not write.
STAFFORD Ann 25 years arrived 2 Sep 1857 on the HORNET Book 13 Page 28 - another resource shows her place of birth as Middlesex; Religion Church of England and she could read and write. Disposal List shows she was employed by Mr WILSON of Studley. That places her in the area of her first birth, Annie Elizabeth, at Kew in Oct 1858.
There are digitised probate files for Thomas and Annie on
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Cando
-
From the birth certificate 1858...who is the informant...Ann or Thomas?
What does it have for "previous issue"
If there is a marriage that did not happen, you would have to suspect that one or both of them is still married to someone else.
Ann, at 26, is older than the average for first child at that time, so possibly has older child?.
There is Will for Thomas LISLE d. 26 Feb 1881 Doncaster.
Also Annie LISLE d. 24 Sep 1913 Doncaster, which names the five living children...Minnie died as child.
-
Strange that family wouldn't know her maiden name.
Death
LISLE Ann
Parents unknown
At Doncaster 80 years 1913 Reg#9100
Cando
They had remembered it again by the time of the death of two of her children ;D
Both these show Thomas LISLE and Ann (or Annie) STAFFORD as parents
Thomas Christopher LISLE in 1946 #4436 at S. Hills aged 75
Alice KNEE (nee LISLE) in 1947 #20360 at Doncaster aged 84
Sue
-
I gave the link to the digitised probate files for Thomas and Annie in reply#12
Nothing there that helps. Thomas named his wife as beneficiary and Annie lists her living children with everything to be sold etc and estate divided.
I find it strange that a birth certificate in the same year as a marriage would not show the full date of the marriage not simply the year. As I mentioned in my reply, it would interesting to see the date of marriage on the other children's birth certificates. I doubt they married. Ann STAFFORD who arrived in 1857 was to be employed in the same area as the birth of their first child.
I have traced all the children and electoral roll listings for the family but didn't post in case this isn't the correct Thomas LISLE.
Cando
-
Ann, at 26, is older than the average for first child at that time, so possibly has older child?.
Wivenhoe
Not if this is her arrival as an assisted immigrant
STAFFORD Ann 25 years arrived 2 Sep 1857 on the HORNET Book 13 Page 28 - another resource shows her place of birth as Middlesex; Religion Church of England and she could read and write. Disposal List shows she was employed by Mr WILSON of Studley. That places her in the area of her first birth, Annie Elizabeth, at Kew in Oct 1858.
Cando
-
Firstly thank you all for the quick response to my query.
Taking your advice Neil, I was looking for the death of Thomas and Ancestry came up with the the death in Australia in 1881 with his father as William, seemed to tie in with the information I have as he disappears from England after the 1851 census. I added the death cert to my tree in Ancestry with the proviso that I wasn't sure if it was the correct Thomas as couldn't find a marriage or a passenger list for him
Cando, Thank you for all the effort in trying to track Thomas down, Annie's birth certificate in 1858 shows 1 child living who I assume would be Annie and the birth is registered by Ann the mother. The list of children is great , thanks.
The link to the newspaper from Sparrett shows that a Thomas Lisle, butcher left Sydney for Port Phillip in March 1856 with the intention of returning to England but hadn't been heard of since, he is shown with a home address of Easington Lane, County Durham. The same occupation as on the Annie birth certificate. Hopefully just a coincidence or I could be going down the wrong path :-\
Think I need to try and find a marriage to try and confirm if I've found the Thomas I'm looking for although the Lisle clan do seem to have a habit of missing marriages!
Once again thanks to everyone for the information.
-
Thomas LISLE was born in Alnwick, Northumberland. Noted on one of his children's birth certificates. On the same cert he stated he was married on 17 Sep 1857, Melbourne ;) So now his marriage is in the previous year and yet in Oct 1858 on Annie Elizabeth's birth cert his wife informed the registrar they were married the same year. I very much doubt there was a marriage. I have searched my bdm resources and even allowing for mistranscriptions I can't see anything.
Cando
-
Cando,
Thanks for the quick reply, if he was born in Alnwick then he probably isn't the Thomas I'm trying to find who was born in Thistleton and baptised in Whittingham, Northumberland although I've had a quick look at FreeReg and no Thomas born in Alnwick only the Thistleton one.
I could get even more confused :'( than I already am!
-
I wonder if he's this Thomas Lisle:
1851 Durham
William Lisle 38 Butcher
Elizabeth Lisle 41
Thomas Lisle 17 Ap. Butcher
Esther Lisle 15
HO107; Piece: 2393; Folio: 361; Page: 30
Thomas' birthplace is given as Outchester Northumberland.Mistranscribed as Northamptonshire.
This family seem to disappear after 1851.
-
Jim,
Looks as though you've found him! he fits the information better than the Thomas I was trying to find. I found the father William again on the on the 1861 census living in Hetton but without Thomas and now married to a Mary.
Sorry to have created a wild goose chase for everyone, guess I'm back to square one.
Once again thank you all for taking the time to help, really appreciated.
-
Not a wild goose chase. Sometimes we have to eliminate everyone else before we can get to the right one.
just to give you a sense of direction William was born Easington Grange N'land & Thomas at Outchester N'Land.These 2 places are 2mls. apart.Hetton-le-Hole & Easington Lane Co.Durham are about the same.
By 1881 William had married for a 4th. time.
This looks like William's last marriage:
Ethell Agnes S. Shields 10a 1042
IGI also has a marriage for a William Lisle b.1817=Mary Phillips 1876 Gateshead which might be wife no.3.