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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Mary Jane Tape on Thursday 06 November 14 21:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi, please can anyone find details of the marriage of Thomas Ralph to Catherine in 1816. Married at St Peters, Wolverhampton?
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??? Odd must be 2 Thomas Ralph's as their is one 5th February 1816 St Peter, Wolverhampton to a Sarah Laurence?
Keyboard86
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??? That is quite likely. My ancestors have a habit of bearing the same name as another branch member. Just when I thought I'd collared this one it turns out to be someone else! Unless.... he could have married for a second time!!!
Thomas was 10 years older than Catherine. If he was born in 1781 (which the census of 1861 tells us) he would have been 25 in 1816, but could have married sooner, say aged 21 and lost his first wife.
Could I be a real pain and ask if there is a death record for Sarah Ralph prior to 1816?
Still doesn't find his marriage to Catherine though.
Much obliged
Mary Jane
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Thomas and Sarah are listed as bachelor and spinster on marriage record. There is a death in Bilston 13 Jan 1817 for Sarah Ralph aged 25. How do you know your Thomas married Catherine in 1816?
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Hi again is this the 1861 you have:-
Thomas Ralph 1781 b Low Heyford, Oxfordshire
Catherine 1791 b Tipton
Emma 1836 Granddaughter b Tipton
Ann Wright 1860 b Tipton
Elizabeth Ralph 1846 Granddaughter b Tipton
Thomas Wright 1836 Married/Grandson?
Census ref RG09/2044/47/39
Keyboard86
PS Thomas Wright 36 looks to be married to Emma aged 34 with the Ann 11 plus other siblings in 1871 In Boats, Gainsborough, Birmingham RG10/3089/27/47
So obvious question, which son/daughter of Thomas Ralph b c 1781 are your ancestors?
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Morning Keyboard
My relative is Emma, described as 'Ralph' despite being married to Thomas Wright! Elizabeth is her sister.
Trying to find the father of these girls is a real headache. He was John Ralph but there appears to be two men of the same name born around the same time.
I thought by going back to Thomas I might be able to go back further - hoping Parish Records might show his parents or at least his father.
There is a marriage in Wolverhampton in 1816 between a Thomas Ralph and Sarah somebody, she could have been his first wife then he married Catherine who he obviously met having left his native Oxfordshire.
Mary Jane
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Hello Stainforth
As you will see from Keyboard's message, Thomas and Catherine appear on the 1861 census with granddaughters and grandson (in-law).
Catherine is shown as being 70 to his 80. The 1851 census shows Thomas to be an Excavator which suggests he was digging canals, although a 70 year old would have some difficulties I should think!
Thomas had a son called John born around 1816-1820 I would guess but untangling him from another John is a nightmare. John was a bargee,
Mary Jane
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Hello Stainforth
As you will see from Keyboard's message, Thomas and Catherine appear on the 1861 census with granddaughters and grandson (in-law).
Catherine is shown as being 70 to his 80. The 1851 census shows Thomas to be an Excavator which suggests he was digging canals, although a 70 year old would have some difficulties I should think!
Thomas had a son called John born around 1816-1820 I would guess but untangling him from another John is a nightmare. John was a bargee,
Mary Jane
Hi again, can you give us the household or census ref for Thomas in 1851 as the only Thomas Ralph aged 70 occ Excavator was born Berkshire with wife Sophia and children in London
Census ref HO107/1497/494/42
Keyboard86
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Hi
I don't think this Thomas Ralph can be the one I'm looking for.
In 1861 the census showed him aged 80 married to 70 year old Catharine/Catherine Ralph.
I can't seem to trace them in any other census but I'm still looking.
Mary Jane
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Hi again, how do you know Thomas had a son John b c 1816/20 if so where, is John on any census?
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard
The only confirmation I have that there is a John Ralph is on several marriage certificates.
He doesn't appear in any census returns (there is a John in 1851 but it is not the correct one).
Emma Wright nee Ralph, William (my grt grt grandfather), Rosanna all have John, Boatman as their father.
I can't find Emma at all apart from her marriage.
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:) OK tell us what you know of Rosanna and William eg births/census?
EDIT on same page Sept qtr 1857 Dudley 6c 181
Emma Ralph
Rosanna Ralph
Thomas Wright
Charles Lloyd
Keyboard86
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• Emma Ralph born about 1835 married Thomas Wright on 10 August 1857 at St Martins, Tipton, Staffs. Fathers: John Ralph, Boatman and Thomas Wright, Boatman Witnesses: John Henry Fisher and Elizabeth Edwards. Thomas Wright was born about 1835 in Staffordshire.
• Rosanna Ralph born about 1839 . Married Charles Lloyd on 10 Aug 1857 at St Martins, Tipton, Staffs. Fathers: John Ralph, Boatman and John Lloyd, Boatman.
Witnesses: Thomas Ralph and Mary Ann Ralph
• WILLIAM RALPH BORN 1842 IN OXFORD (according to census 1891)
Married JANE WAGSTAFF 4 November 1865 at St Mark’s, Tipton, Staffs. Fathers: John Ralph, Boatman and James Wagstaff. Witnesses: John Hodgkiss and Martha. This is my grt grt grandfather.
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HI again, if William is a Boatman then in 1861 aged 19 b Oxfordshire he is with a few other Boatmen in Macclesfield Street, St Lukes London in 1861
Census ref RG09/202/42/28
Keyboard86
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The 1871 shows this family:-
William Ralph 29 occ Labourer b Oxfordshire
Jane 25
James 3
William 1
This him?
Next door:-
Thomas H Ralph 30 occ Labourer b Oxfordshire
Selina? 30
Jane 7
John H 5
Adam 1
Residing at Aston Street Court, Tipton
Census ref RG10/3000/83/48
And in 1891 this family:-
Edwin Peters 35
Jane 27
Adam Rolfe 21 Step brother
Letitia 7
All born Tipton
Residing at Bear Gardens Buildings, Southwark
Census ref RG12/343/39/33
An Edwin Peters possibly married a Jane Ralph June qtr W Bromwich 6b 1102
Keyboard86
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Hi again, you may wish to check out who the father is of this marriage:-
Thomas Henry ROLFE Dec qtr 1862 Dudley 6c 146 to as 1881 RG11/2865/151/45 a Letitia James
In 1881Thomas is now a Boatman on Canal
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard
Yes, all this information tallies with my records.
William and Thomas are probably brothers and I suspect may have been born on board the canal boat while it was working in the Oxford area. *A William was baptised on 25 Sept. 1842 at St Martin's, Tipton.
I don't know if the birth was ever registered in Oxford or elsewhere despite being a legal requirement since 1837.
Without this information it's impossible to find parents.
* I have a birth certificate for A William Ralph born 14 August 1842 to John and Elizabeth, formerly Mills. Father is described as a Labourer and the address is Lower Green, Gornall.
The 1851 census shows this family with son William and also Thomas BUT there is an 8 year gap between the two boys, Thomas being the younger, whereas the 1881 census show Thomas as 40 and William 37.
A knotty problem. IF we have 2 families here both having sons born in 1842 there is no real hope of separating them is there? ???
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• Rosanna Ralph born about 1839 . Married Charles Lloyd on 10 Aug 1857 at St Martins, Tipton, Staffs. Fathers: John Ralph, Boatman and John Lloyd, Boatman.
Witnesses: Thomas Ralph and Mary Ann Ralph
FindMyPast has image of parish register, the witness looks like Edward Ralph rather than Thomas. Is that different on the GRO cert?
Have you any idea who Edward and Mary Ann Ralph are?
If Rosanna's age is right she should have been born after 1837, but I can't find any registration for her birth ???
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An Edward Ralph s/o Thomas married mary Ann Evans in Tipton in 1953, no scan just a transcript unfortunately. i think I have them on 1861 census, Edward was born in Worcester(shire?) and they have children Joseph and Catherine.
So could Edward be Thomas and Catherine's son? born quite a bit after John, the father of Rosanna, Emma and Elizabeth (and others).
I have a possible for Rosanna in three censuses, recorded as hannah twice and Rose H (Rose Hannah?) once. Her Pob is Worcestershire on two censuses and Tipton on one. but this nees more investigation.
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You have found John father of Emma, Roseanna, Elizabeth etc. Is this from my initial info or from other records?
I may have been on the wrong track thinking Thomas was born in Oxfordshire - he could have been born there while his parents were passing through. Need to check up on when the canals were working.
Quite often the census returns give different places of birth. John's grandsons, William and Thomas lived in Aston Street in later censuses. Both gave Oxfordshire as their birth place on one census but later Thomas gave Tipton as his birthplace!
I know that Roseanna married Charles Lloyd - I have the certificate. Not sure who Thomas Ralph is - could be her younger brother, but no idea about Mary Ann Ralph because Thomas married Letitia somebody.
Trying to tie down this John is a problem as there were two, one lived at Lower Gornall while my John lived at Toll End.
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FindMyPast has images of the parish register for the three marriages and transcription of the marriage of Edward and Mary Ann. If you have a cert from the GRO, it may have been mistranscribed if it says Thomas as witness to Rosanna's marriage. The FindMyPast scan is the original register not a transcription, but it is teh mark of Edw Ralph as he couldn't sign his name. As it looks as if he is the son of Thomas, he is likely to be Rosanna's uncle.
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Lizzie, this is looking very good. I've just looked at Roseanna and Charles' photocopied marriage certificate and you are right - it's not Thomas who was a witness, it was Edward, well a contraction of Edward.
Edward and Mary Ann were uncle and aunt.
Do Edward and Mary Ann show up in any other censuses I wonder? Must check.
Thanks for clearing up that little mystery.