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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Romilly on Tuesday 25 November 14 16:22 GMT (UK)
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Would anyone on here know...
Were any records kept for Apprentices joining The Merchant Navy in the 1900's. (Before WW1).
I recently came across this snippet from 'The South Wales Post' Newspaper; which concerns my late Father, Evan Douglas Wilson:
http://papuraunewyddcymru.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/4110420/ART73/evan%20douglas%20wilson
It would seem from this that on leaving School, he initially worked in the 'Reporter's Dept' of that paper before leaving to become an Apprentice in The Merchant Navy. I know that he spent several years working for 'The Taylor and Sanderson Steam Shipping Company' before joining the RNR in 1916/'17.
If any records still exist, would they be in the papers relating to this Company at Kew? Or would I need to consult Ship's Logs and Crew Lists, etc? (I know that one of their Ships that he was on was 'The John Sanderson'.
Cheers, Romilly.
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You would need to look at the following at Kew.
BT150 Index of Apprentices 1824-1953
BT151 Apprentices Indentures 1845-1950 Only ever 5th year has been preserved but you may be lucky.
There are some details of the Sunderland based company Taylor and Sanderson in BT 31/16272/63792 but as far as I can see they do not relate to employee records.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?name=Search&_aq=&_ep=&_or1=&_or2=&_or3=&_nq1=&_nq2=&_nq3=&_cr1=BT+31%2F16272%2F63792&_cr2=&_cr3=&_dss=range&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=&_ro=any&_rd=&_rsd=&_red=&_st=adv&_rv=
I think your best bet is to consult Crew Agreements and Logbooks JOHN SANDERSON O/N 95284
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Many thanks for the most comprehensive answer Seaweed.
I knew that if anyone could point me in the right direction, it would be you!
All Best Wishes,
Romilly
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Since my last post, I have managed to find some more info on the 'John Sanderson':
The JOHN SANDERSON was hired by the Admiralty and served as a Royal Fleet Auxiliary in 1914-1919. Some details about the career of this vessel can be found here: http://historicalrfa.org/requisitioned-auxiliaries/169-requisitioned-auxiliaries-j/1380-requisitioned-auxiliary-john-sanderson.
I've also had a reply from The National Maritime Museum to say that they don't hold any records on this ship:
'Usually the crews of Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) vessels were signed on by a mercantile agreement and these sometimes survive among the Board of Trade records of British-registered merchant vessels. Unfortunately, the JOHN SANDERSON isn’t represented in the crew agreements from the year 1915 in the National Maritime Museum collection. There is nothing for Official No 95284 in the box covering the number range 95270 to 95319'.
'There is a Board of Trade logbook for the JOHN SANDERSON from the year 1914 in the BT 165 series at TNA: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1732500
They also say that 'some crew records for the JOHN SANDERSON from the period 1912-1916 do exist at the Maritime History Archive (MHA) in Newfoundland.
However, I've tried searching the MHA website: https://www.mun.ca/mha/and keep getting a '0' Result... Am I doing something wrong? ::)
Romilly.
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Hello Romilly,
Search by ship's official number 95284.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=95284
I presume you already have his RNR record. His awards were the 1914-15 Star, The Victory Medal and British War Medal.
Regards
Hugh
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Hello Hugh,
Thanks for the reply.
I've now had a reply from Newfoundland, who say:
'Thank-you for your email of 4 February 2015 regarding the 'John Sanderson', ON 95284 for 1912-16.
According to our index, we have that vessel's crew agreements for voyages terminating in 1912-14 and 1916. The crew agreements of voyage terminating in 1915 are likely held at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich'.
They've sent me a list of estimated charges; which sound quite steep...
I'm wondering how much info Crew Agreements contain, - would they necessarily have much on individual crew members?
And yes thanks, - I already have my late Father's RNR Service Record and Medal Roll Entries.
Best Wishes, Romilly.
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Hello Romilly,
Do you know what dates he served on JOHN SANDERSON?
Regarding what a Crew Agreement will tell you have a look here: the information is pre 1900 but the format was the same for your dates of interest.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/mlc/toolkit/agreements/foreign-going/?map=1
Regards
Hugh
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Hello Hugh,
Many thanks for the Crew Agreement sample, - much appreciated.
Yes, I have the exact dates that my Father served on the JOHN SANDERSON, as I have a Testimonial for him. (Attached). He was there from 7/6/1912 - 30/12/1916.
The Crew Agreements for that ship for 1915 seem to have gone AWOL, - as Greenwich, the NA & Newfoundland don't appear to have them.
Newfoundland have some for 1912/1914 and 1916, - but I don't want to order whole years, as too expensive. I might just try ordering one for 1912 and see what turns up...
Do you have any idea what time scale a Crew would be signed up for? I'm guessing that it would be months rather than whole years?
Cheers, Romilly.
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Forgot to Attach this:
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Do you have any idea what time scale a Crew would be signed up for? I'm guessing that it would be months rather than whole years?
The crew would sign on and off for each voyage, some voyages would be relatively short, others could be for much longer periods, many months - it was not uncommon for a ship to be away from a UK port for a year.
Regards
Hugh
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Many thanks Hugh for the further info.
I will order the records for 1912 initially, and take it from there.
Best Wishes,
Romilly.
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It could well be that the crew agreements for 1915 are with the ones for 1916. Depends when she returned to a UK port.
Research at MHA is charged on an hourly basis. It may well pay you to ask for as many years as they can copy for what you are willing to pay.
If you just ask for one year it may take only half an hour to copy, but you will be paying in effect for a full hours research. If they can copy four years in two hours that would cost you $80. Doing it individually would cost you $160. If you get my drift.
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Yes, you're certainly right about the charges Seaweed.
The info for just 1912 comes to $79.10, - whereas 1912 + 1913 is $124.30...
(I have yet to work out what that is in our money!:-)
Romilly.
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I've now discovered that the Logbooks for the 'JOHN SANDERSON' for the years that I'm interested in are held at Kew, - and so I will go and check them out before ordering from the NMM.
I'm guessing that they will have more details than Crewlists anyway? But I might be wrong...
Romilly.
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Hello Romilly,
The ship's Official Logbook will hold much more information but it is important to know that the Crew List and Crew Agreement are all part of the Official Logbook and not separate to it. The Official Logbook has a lot of different sections some of which will be of no relevance to your research but others such as the narrative pages would note any incidents onboard and cross refer names involved to the Crew List. Not all Logbooks have survived and also some of their sections may not be intact. For example if a ship was sunk the Official Logbook would be lost with the vessel and what you have left would be the shore copy, again if it has survived, along with additional information such as list C & D (Casualty and Deaths) etc.
Regards
Hugh
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Hello Hugh,
Many thanks for explaining the differences re: Logbooks and Crewlists.
I will go and take a look at the Logbooks held at Kew initially. (It's closer than Newfoundland to visit:-)
The charges at the NMM Newfoundland seem rather steep to me... It's a shame that records relating to British Mariners weren't retained in the UK.
Best Wishes, Romilly.
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Further to my last Post, I have now visited Kew and found and copied part of the Logbook of the 'JOHN SANDERSON' for it's voyages from Sunderland to the Black Sea and Constantinople in 1914.
My late Father features in the Logbook as an Apprentice Seaman, and on the 24th January 1914, it is noticed that while painting on the Lower Bridge, he tripped over the Bunker Hatch and sprained his ankle(!) He resumed duties on the 29th January 1914.
I'm pleased to have found some mention of him, - even if it wasn't for a very pleasant reason. :)
The Crew Lists in Newfoundland will have to wait until I have the funds to obtain them.
Romilly.
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Glad you are on the right course. Logbook narrative pages can reveal a wealth of information on individual seamen but they are rarely mentioned in research guides and similar publications. Please keep us updated as to your future progress.
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Yes, Logbooks are certainly a good source. (If they can be found).
Some, (Not all) for the WW1 period are available vis this Link:
http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-08-HMS_Orcoma.htm
I've found entries concerning my late Father in the Logbook of the 'Orcoma' on that Site from June - August 1917.
Romilly.