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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Dramagal27 on Friday 19 December 14 14:41 GMT (UK)
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I am seeking information about my great-grandfather's experience in the British Merchant Navy prior to 1863 (by then, he was married and living in London).
Richard Smith (born 1834) was nine when he joined the navy (Mom told me this years ago). I have since learned that boys that young were not accepted into the British Navy, but instead went into the Merchant Navy. As well, evidently many of these boys came from poor circumstances (workhouses, for example).
What I know about him:
..He learned his shoemaker trade in the navy,
..His ship went to the Crimea.
..A ship he was on also stopped slave ships.
What I'd like to know:
..Where were most of these boys from in England?
..How many shoemakers were on board each ship? Would he have been one of several apprentices?
..Is there a list of apprentices who served in the Merchant Navy?.
..Would he have received a pension when he left?
..would he have received any medals? If so, which ones?
..Was leaving the Merchant Navy easy, or would he have had to buy his way out?
Any information you can provide about him and/or the life of a boy in the Merchant Navy at this time would be most helpful. Thanks.
Cheers,
Marianne
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Where was he born?
1861 has several Richard Smiths of the right sort of age on Vessels.
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This is the million dollar question. I used to think he was a Londoner since my grandfather, his son, was born in East end London; however, this was just an assumption on my part. With a name like "Richard Smith", you can imagine how many I am finding. I don't even know the last name of his first wife. Her first names were Anne Elizabeth (I suspect she went by "Annie", the same name as her daughter). She died on route to Canada.
I thought that maybe identifying him by birth year and occupation might make things a little easier.
What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks for trying.
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"A ship he was on also stopped slave ships"
I wonder if he joined the Royal Navy as soon as he was old enough.
Mike
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When did they leave for Canada? Was it before the 1871 census? If not, hopefully you can find him and his family on that to get his place of birth.
Who was his father from his marriage cert? When and where did he marry? You say he was married "by 1863" - was it before 1861 census or not?
What children did he and Ann have - they might help locate the family in a census (unless they werent born till after departure to Canada of course) - AHh just noticed they had onein East End, so who was that and when and where was he born? Have you got his birth cert? That will give his mothers maiden name and lead you to the marriage.
What occupation is given on sons birth cert? Is that Royal Navy, Merchant Navy, or otherwise? And then when marriage is found you can see how his occupation is described there too.
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I hope the following helps. Prior to 1873, when Continuous Service became compulsory in the Royal Navy, men were free to move between the merchant fleet and Royal Navy. This meant a man could enter the RN for the duration of a ships commission and when paid off look for alternative employment in either service. Continuous Service itself was first introduced in 1853, and if a man signed up he was paid an extra penny per day. Service records for those men who signed up for CS can be found on the National Archives (NA) website.
If you know the name of a RN ship served on then it is possible to use the Ship’s Description Book at the NA to find information on place of birth, age and previous RN ships served on. If you don’t know a ship, but believe he was awarded a medal, you could look at the medal rolls, find likely matches, then search each ship’s description book – for someone called Richard Smith this would be quite a task, but possible.
If he served during the Crimean War then there were two possible medals awarded, the Baltic Medal and the Crimean Medal, the latter could have ‘battle’ clasps, for the RN these might be Azoff, Inkerman, Balaklava and Sebastopol. Only men in the RN were awarded medals, not those merchant seamen who delivered war material.
Martin
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Thanks Martin.
You have given me a good foundation of knowledge with which to work.
As you can imagine, with a name like Richard Smith, my task is rather daunting. I have recently registered with 23 and Me in the hopes that I may someday find his relatives through our mutual DNA rather than just through the traditional genealogy sites.
Cheers,
Marianne
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Have you followed basic Family History Research steps that I outlined in reply #4 ?
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Reply to # 4
Here's my problem. Btw: I have been at this (i.e., trying to find info on Richard Smith) for a while now, but I have come up against many dead ends. Perhaps you can help steer me in the right direction.
What I know:
My branch of the Smith family came in 1870 (Mom told me this, and cross-referencing tells me this is true.
Richard Smith's wife, my great-grandmother (Anne Elizabeth Smith) and an infant son died en route, it would seem, since they left England as a family of five (I thought my grandfather Richard - b. 1863 - was a twin, but family stories are always a little suspect. However, I definitely know that a younger brother died either as soon as they arrived or on board - see the following immigration record: http://interactive.ancestry.ca/1263/e003532481/203708?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.ca%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dCanadianPL%26h%3d203708%26ti%3d5543%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t27033822_p12051610697_kpidz0q3d12051610697z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t27033822_p12051610697_kpidz0q3d12051610697z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Also, although I know Richard Sr's first wife's name was Anne Elizabeth (probably went by Annie, like her daughter). I have no idea what her last name was. I have not found her in any cemetery or in any record of a marriage (incidentally, they would have been married or else they would not have been sponsored to come to Canada). A distant cousin tells me that she might be buried in someone else's plot, but not named on the headstone.
You may say, well look up a death certificate for Richard. Unfortunately, his mother's name is "unknown". However, the death certificate for his sister appears to list an "Annie" or "Hannah" Emons as the maiden name of her mother. Once again, I have not found a record of a marriage of Annie Emons and Richard Smith around 1860. See: http://search.ancestry.ca/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=ontario_deaths&h=733540&ti=5543&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t27033822_p12229314649_kpidz0q3d12229314649z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid
Re: The occupation for Richard Smith (b. 1834) - he was a shoemaker. He learned this trade in the "Navy".
So, now you know what I have been up against. I will find out eventually, but it will take time.
Thanks for whatever leads you can provide.
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There is another post in April this year on this question, just so we don't go over the same ground
Mike
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Reply to #4
Who knows what just happened to my reply. It got deleted. Arrgghhh!
Ok.
Essentially, here's what I said -
The Smith family (Richard - b. 1834; Anne Eliz. - b. ??; Richard - b. 1863; Anne - b. 1867; infant - under a year?) left England in 1870 (I am unable to paste Ancestry info into this doc., but you may find the record in June 1870). Richard Sr. was a shoemaker, a trade he learned in the "Navy" (having no luck with this record either). They were sponsored by the East London Emigration Fund.
Sometime on board or shortly after arriving, Anne and the infant died (probably from typhoid fever since Richard Jr. survived a few bouts of it).
Richard Jr.'s mother is listed as "unknown" on his death certificate; however, on his sister's death certificate, she is listed as Anne Emons (someone said it looked like "Evans").
I have not found a record of a marriage between an Anne Emons and a Richard Smith (btw: they would have been married or they would not have been sponsored).
Where are Anne and the infant buried? I haven't found any record. Maybe they are in an unmarked grave somewhere.
Anyway, that's all I know. Thanks again for any leads you can provide.
Marianne
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If they died on board, Anne and the baby would be buried at sea.
Have you any ideas where Richard jnr, Anne jnr and "infant" were born? ie what part of England? Youmentioned something about the East End in a previous post I believe.
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If Anne and baby were buried at sea, wouldn't there be a record somewhere?
Richard Jr. and his sister, Anne were both born in East End London (they were "Cockneys"). I assume the baby was born there too.
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Do they give anything more specific about their places of birth in any Canadian censuses or other records?
Do you know Richard jnr and Anne jnr exact date of birth from any later records? Is 1863 and 1867 definite years of birth, or just approx based on ages given later?
If we can find their births, then birth certs will give Anne seniors maiden name, plus Dads occupation at that time, which will answer some of your questions.
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Dates given on certificates:
Richard Smith Jr. was born 3 August, 1863 in London, England.
Anne Elizabeth Smith was born 2nd May, 1867 in London, England.
Given the common nature of their names and the fact that both were born in East End London (Cockney England), how would I go about getting their birth certificates?
Thanks.
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It is a case of finding their births in the index (using www.freebmd or a subscription site equivelent) and then you can order a copy of thge cert(s) from www.gro.gov.uk
Births should be registered within 6 weeks, so Richards should be in the Jul/Aug/Sep quarter of 1863 and Ann's in the Apr/May/Jun quarter of 1867.
But I am not seeing anything in those quarters in any parts of East London sort of area.
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Was registering births required?
Would there have been a cost?
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Yes , and No.
Sorry, obviously didnt look very well before! Just found the following possibles for Ann -
Anne Smith -Apr/May/Jun 1867 -East London- ref 1c 13
Annie Smith -Apr/May/Jun 1867 -Hackney - ref 1b 402
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I'm still no sure I understand how to do this.
Would the following be my next steps?
..contact the National Archives of Britain.
..ask for a copy of both records (since we're not sure which is the right one).
Would these birth certificates list an occupation of the father?
Would it list the mother's maiden name?
Next, is the reason that I am not finding the birth certificate online because many of the British-held vital statistics are not yet transcribed?
Thanks again.
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I have found 2 possibles for Ann in the index, none for Richard. So that does make me wonder whether "East End of London" is correct, or just a family rumour!
No birth certificates are online, only the index.
If you want to send for the cert for either of the Ann ones I found, then you can do so via www.gro.gov.uk. Cost is £9.25 and for that they send to anywhere in the world.
When you get the cert(s) you can see if the parents are called Rchard and Ann. If not, then the cert doesnt appear to be "your" Ann.
If the parents are correct, then there is a good chance you have the right one - you can also see the exact date of birth and see if it matches the date you gave.
Once you are sure you have the correct cert, then you can glean more info from it towards your research. Yes it will show mothers maiden name and occupation of father.
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My grandfather died in 1944, before I was born, but from the time I was little, I knew my grandfather's birthplace. However, maybe it was the birthplace for his sister and he was born elsewhere, but moved there as a baby. It is possible.
Given that his father had been in the navy, where are the likely ports that he would have ended up in after serving? This may give us a clue about where Richard Jr. was born.
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I guess it could be anywhere in the world!
We need to establish some facts to be a starting point, facts that we can find evidence to back up.
If you are fairly certain that Richard jnr was bn 3 Aug 1863, then you need to search the indexes again to try and pinpoint his birth.
Are you sure he didnt appear on any Canadian censuses after 1870, that give a more detailed place of birth?
Could he have actually been a John Richard Smith?
There is a birth of one in Jul/Aug/Sep 1863, Whitechapel, ref 1c 379
But even on a second look, no Richard Smith in that quarter in East London