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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: jimmain on Thursday 15 January 15 16:57 GMT (UK)
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John was hung at Magus Muir 1679, for his alleged part in the murder of Archbishop Sharp. He is known to have had a son John born 1679, who married Mary Waddell. I came across information indicating that he had a daughter Sarah, born 1666, Glasgow, who married John Winning. I have not been able to prove this and am wondering if anyone can confirm that this information is correct.
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If true, it's pretty shattering new info for us Waddell researchers, Jim. Where did you 'come across' it and what exactly does it say?
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I came across this on a tree in Ancestry. It didn't appear right to me and I was not able to confirm any of this. That's why I was wondering if anyone had information that I haven't been able to uncover.
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http://www.thereformation.info/james_sharp.htm
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Thank you, Sancti.
Waddell researchers are well aware of the story of the 5 men hanged in 1679. 'The Martyr' features in the recent book The Waddells of Scotland by Gavin Waddell, who has been researching Waddells for decades.
John Waddell 'The Martyr' of Ryden was my 7th-great-grandfather, and I have been to see his grave. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO4515
What is new here is the suggestion, that I have never seen anywhere else, that he had a daughter, and that the name of that daughter was Sarah, so you can imagine that if this information is correct, it would shed a considerable amount of new light on matters.
As it comes from a tree on Ancestry, I have to say that I am extremely sceptical, but would be very interested to see the supporting evidence for this assertion.
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He is known to have had a son John born 1679, who married Mary Waddell.
According to Gavin Waddell's book, the John W who married Mary Waddell was the grandson, not the son, of the Martyr. This infomation is drawn from John Macarthur's New Monkland Parish
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Jim, do you get Dr Mark Jardine's, Book of Martyr's?
https://drmarkjardine.wordpress.com/
Skoosh.
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Besides the tree Jim found on A******y, there are various online references to John Winning and Sarah Waddell.
Neither SP nor the IGI has a marriage, but there are some baptisms
Jonet Wining, baptised 27 June 1686 (SP and indexed IGI)
John Winning, baptised 12 February 1689 (submitted IGI, not in SP)
Thomas Winning, baptised 13 December 1691 (SP and submitted IGI)
Marie Winning, baptised 4 January 1694, (SP and indexed IGI, but mother's given name listed as Margret)
Matthew Winning, baptised 28 May 1696 (SP and submitted IGI)
There is a tree at http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/i/n/Joan-E-Winning/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0107.html which shows only Thomas and Matthew, and descendants of Thomas.
There is correspondence on RootsChat http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCT-GLASGOW/2008-06/1214213612 listing some of Thomas' descendants.
None of these offer any suggestions as to the parentage of Sarah Waddell.
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Afternoon folks, I know Gavin Waddell and have a copy of his book being a Slamannan Waddell through my late grandmother. I am also an 8x great grandson of John Winning and Sarah Waddell. This posting was the first suggestion I have seen that Sarah Waddell is a daughter of John Waddell the Martyr.
There are interesting connections within the Winning family. John Winning's cousin was James Winning who was hung in 1684 and James' mother Helen Main is reputed to be a close relative of Main the Standard Bearer who was also hung.
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And Easter Ross was the very place for the Covenanters. ;D
Welcome to the site.
Skoosh.
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Hello (cousin?) easterross, welcome to RootsChat.
I have now found my copy of MacArthur's New Monkland Parish: Its History, Industries and People.
He quotes extensive from Robert Wodrow's The history of the sufferings of the church of Scotland from the restoration to the revolution, and in particular he lists John Waddell in New Monkland as one of the five executed in November 1679 at Magus-muir, and later on says that the five were to be "carried to the muir of Magus, in the Sheriffdom of Fife .... upon the 18th of November instant, and there to be hanged ....."
So there is some doubt whether the date is the 18th of November, as in the Lords' sentence quoted above, or the 25th, as on the stones erected later to commemorate them. What is not in question is the place of death, which is Magus Muir, not in the parish of New Monkland.
Among the Covenanters aboard the Crown of London are listed William Waddell, who survived, and James Waddell, who did not. A proclamation dated 5th May 1684 listed William Waddell in Riding as one of the fugitives in the parish of New Monkland.
Matthew Waddell in Ryding was fined in 1706, and imprisoned in Hamilton until he paid up. William Waddell in Ryden was fined six pounds for his wife and bairns, their being at a preaching.
MacArthur quotes from the East Monkland Kirk Session minutes a list of those who lost during the persecutions of the 1680s including James Waddell, in Arnbuckle; James Waddell in Standridge; John Waddell in Auchengray; William Waddell in Ryden. Matthew Waddell in Ryden also wrote an account of his own losses. The same source lists among those who suffered after Bothwell Bridge John Waddell, put to death; James Waddell, son to John Waddell, in Ridge, transported and died in the shipwreck; William Waddell in Craigneuck, transported and escaped from the shipwreck. Margaret Waddell, aged about eighty, wife of John Martin, was cast out of her house face down on a dunghill and, being unable to move, would have died there but for being rescued by friends. Two John Waddells in Wester Arnbuckle were taken to Edinburgh at another period, and lay there for a considerable time. John Waddell in Auchengray was also wounded and captured at Bothwell Bridge.
Later on, MacArthur describes John Craig Waddell (1813-1882) who was "the descendant and representative of the Ryden Waddells .... who suffered so much during the religious persecution in the seventeenth century". He goes on, "It is recorded that John Waddell, of Ryden .... was hanged along with four others at Magus Muir, while his son William was banished for seven years to the plantations in Virginia. The mother of this John Waddell, when above eighty years of age, was .... dragged outside and would have perished had not some friends come to her relief."
It doesn't take an eagle eye to spot inconsistencies. The earlier sources say that the eighty-year-old lady dragged out but saved by friends was the wife of John Martin, not the wife of a Waddell, and the William Waddell sentenced to transportation is termed 'in Craigneuck' in part of the earlier source, and a William Waddell in Ryden was among those fined in 1706.
The escaped William is generally said to have fled to Ireland, where he became the progenitor of the Waddells of Ouley in County Down.
The more I look at this, the more confused I get about exactly who was who :(
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PS Have now tracked down the relevant pages of Wodrow online. They add nothing of relevance to this thread.
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Hello - My name is Mike Waddell and I live in Emmaus, PA.
I have been researching my Waddell family line for many years and I'm stuck at Joseph Waddle b. 1799 d. 1854 in Franklin County, Pennsylvania. His death certificate states that his father was Joseph Waddle [b. 1750 d. 1818] and his mother is Martha [Caldwell b. 1775 d. 1826]. The problem is that I can't find any information about Joseph b. 1750.
The line I believe may connect is from John the Martyr Waddell via William b. 1660 [brother of the Martyr?] who was the lone Waddell survivor of the Crown of London shipwreck in December, 1679. He made it to Ireland and subsequently his four sons came to America and settled in the Franklin County area. The Waddells of Colonial Pennsylvania and Virginia publication, 1992 asserts that William's son William b. c1715 had a son Joseph b. 1738 d. 1818 who had a son Joseph b. 1799 d. 1854 but I can't find any source for the Joseph b. either 1738 or 1750.
Does anyone at this forum have any information that might help me?
Regards,
Mike Waddell
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Hello, Mike :)
Gavin's book does tell the story of the Crown of London and he says that William Waddell of Ryden escaped to Ireland where he founded 'several significant families, including the Ouley branch, and the American dynasty of James Waddell, the Blind Preacher of Tinkling Spring ....'
Unfortunately it isn't easy - may not even be possible - to pin down exactly the generations between William W of Ryden and later generations, because the records simply don't exist. There are huge gaps in the surviving Irish records between 1680 and the middle of the 19th century, and quite a lot of what does exist is unindexed and therefore time-consuming to extract.
The late Caraline Wilfreda Bingley, née Waddell, did a vast amount of work collecting information about Waddell families in Ireland, and collaborated with Gavin in the preparation of his book. However she herself says that it had not proved possible to link all of the Irish families together, or to establish with certainty who left Scotland when, though most if not all of them are believed to have sprung from the Waddells in New Monkland.
It isn't known with certainty, for example, how old William W was, or how exactly he was related to John W The Martyr, though Gavin had concluded that they must have been brothers. It is known that he made his way to Ireland in after the wreck in 1679, where he married and had a family. At least one of his sons stayed in Ireland and became the founder of the Waddells of Ouley.
Another son, Thomas, married Janetta Bruce and became the father of James Waddell, the Blind Preacher of Tinkling Spring, Virginia, said to have been born in Newry, County Down in 1739. Thomas and family emigrated to the USA, where James married Mary Gordon and had a large and well documented family.
Could your elusive Joseph have been a brother of the Blind Preacher, born after his family left Ireland for North America?
There's a monument to the victims of the Crown of London at Deerness in Orkney https://www.geograph.org.uk/snippet/23785
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Thank you for this quick response that makes me feel better about the difficulty in finding anything substantive re my Waddell family line that becomes muddied past Joseph Waddle b. 1799 d. 1854 in Franklin County, PA. I have this Joseph's death cert that shows Joseph Waddle as his father and Martha Waddle [Caldwell] as his mother. I also have Joseph's will that helps define this family in 1818 at his death [I'd be happy to send any or all of this documentation to you if you want it].
I went to Chambersburg, Franklin County last week and visited the Franklin County Historical Society and the FC Archives from which I got some good maps that show parcels owned by Thomas, James, and Joseph.
Truthfully, I'm hanging my hat on the Waddells of Colonial PA and VA lineage that asserts the William b. c 1715 and his son Joseph b. 1738 connected to my certain Joseph b. 1799 d. 1854. This isn't a perfect connection but it's certainly worth consideration.
Also, I don't believe that the Blind Preacher had any children named Joseph.
Regards,
Mike Waddell
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I'm hanging my hat on the Waddells of Colonial PA and VA lineage that asserts the William b. c 1715 and his son Joseph b. 1738 connected to my certain Joseph b. 1799 d. 1854. This isn't a perfect connection but it's certainly worth consideration.
I do have a note that Thomas W, father of the Blind Preacher, had a brother named William, and I have a date of birth for him, 29 October 1710, but I don't know where that came from.
Also, I don't believe that the Blind Preacher had any children named Joseph.
I didn't suggest that he did. I speculated that he might have had a brother named Joseph.
I would be interested in the contents of any documentation that contains contemporary primary records of any family relationships.
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Yes, Thomas W had a brother William b. 29 October, 1710 and he is the father of the Joseph b. 1738 who may be my direct ancestor leading to Joseph b. 1799 in Franklin County, PA.
I believe that James Waddel had William, John, Robert and Francis as siblings as noted in the Waddells of Colonial PA and VA.
Is there a way to send you documents through this site?
Mike Waddell
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Is there a way to send you documents through this site?
Two ways.
You can attach a document to a post in the forum. That's useful for images and short documents, but there are size limits.
Also, now that you have made a few posts, you can use the Personal Messaging system to exchange e-mail addresses. You do that by clicking on the icon like a sheet of paper with a folded corner under the name of the person you want to get in touch with.
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Yes, Thomas W had a brother William b. 29 October, 1710 and he is the father of the Joseph b. 1738 who may be my direct ancestor leading to Joseph b. 1799 in Franklin County, PA.
Out of curiosity, where did that date come from? I am pretty sure I got it from Gavin, but I'd be interested to know where he got it from.
Also, Gavin says that the mother of the Blind Preacher was Margaret Mayne Reid, but for some reason I have her down as Janetta Bruce, so I'd welcome clarification of that one way or another.
Freda Bingley lists baptisms in Seaforde, County Down, of James in 1738 and Thomas in 1739 to Thomas W and Jane Bruce. She attributes them to the IGI (International Genealogical Index) but I can't find them there or anywhere else on the FamilySearch web site.
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Freda Bingley lists baptisms in Seaforde, County Down, of James in 1738 and Thomas in 1739 to Thomas W and Jane Bruce. She attributes them to the IGI (International Genealogical Index) but I can't find them there or anywhere else on the FamilySearch web site.
Seaforde is in the parish of Loughinisland. There are various churches there (Church of Ireland, several Presbyterian and RC). However none has records for the 1730s. The oldest is the Church of Ireland. Their records start in 1760. (Copy held in PRONI in Belfast).
So whatever the source of these baptisms is, it seems unlikely to be supported by any surviving church records.
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Seaforde is in the parish of Loughinisland. There are various churches there (Church of Ireland, several Presbyterian and RC). However none has records for the 1730s. The oldest is the Church of Ireland. Their records start in 1760. (Copy held in PRONI in Belfast).
So whatever the source of these baptisms is, it seems unlikely to be supported by any surviving church records.
Rather what I thought, which is why I'm keen to know where Mike got it from.
I also have birth or dates for William on 25 January 1704, Thomas on 24 February 1707 and John on 3 October 1710 which I assume are from the same source.
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The plot thickens!
Those dates of birth for the supposed sons of William W 'Crown of London' come from https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~jmbhome/1weddle.html and they match the dates of baptism of some of the family of William Waddell and his wife Mary in Dover, Kent
William, baptised 23 or 28 January 1705, buried 5 May 1705
Thomas, baptised 24 February 1706
William, baptised 29 October 1710
Sarah, baptised 29 September 1712
John, baptised 3 October 1714
Mary, buried 1 September 1715.
These are only index listings from the parish register of St Mary the Virgin, Dover. I do not have access to the original documents.
If, as that web site suggests, Mary Irvine was born in 1660, she would have been too old to be the mother of John, and probably of any of them. Also why were they in Dover rather than in Ireland?
The late Caraline Wilfreda Bingley collected a vast amount of information about the Waddells of Ireland, and she states (twice) that the William Waddell whom Mary Irvine married was the son of William 'Crown of London'. This would make far more sense. He could have been a younger brother of the progenitor of the Waddells of Ouley, whose sons went to seek their fortunes in America, leaving their uncle to found the Ouley dynasty back home.
The crucial bit of information needed to progress this is the maiden surname of Mary, mother of those children baptised (or buried) in Dover between 1705 and 1715.