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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: cazza59 on Tuesday 07 April 15 09:32 BST (UK)
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Whoops, posted out of order. ::)
This one isn't so grand, but it's the same type of photo, size etc as the other photos so you never know there may be a connection and someone might come across it.
Caz
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I don't think this one will be identifiable, it's too "ordinary" for want of a better word, but I'll bump it up anyway.
Caz
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I am thinking southern counties - Kent or some such .... :-\
You never know, it may still be there as it's a manageable size and not as costly to maintain. It appears to have several components to it rather than being purpose built, so perhaps added to over the years. I initially thought the part on the left looked 1930s but I think it is Victorian. Wonder if there are any clues in the style of windows? :-\
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Quite possible Ruskie. I wonder what the glassed tower (crows nest?) was used for? Bird watching, to take advantage of some glorious view? I think a miracle is needed for this one, but then I thought that with all of them!! ;D
Caz
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I wonder if that post bottom right is one of a pair and used to hold a tennis net. Looks about the right height.
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I wonder if it's a care home, sanatorium or something like that...look at the benches...just
made me think of that and a lot of the windows are open, which probably means
absolutely nothing ;D ;D
Joy
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That bench is there for watching the tennis Joy ;D
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.... a lot of the windows are open ...
Joy
Means it is a hot summer day probably. ;)
That is a huge greenhouse on the right. And behind that - is that part of the same property or a close neighbour?
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This again is probably the back of the house, although the greenhouse you would think would be at the back.
Is that a square tower showing between the 2nd and 3rd chimneys from the left?
Do you think it could look out to sea from that glassed tower?
Many large houses were taken over as RAF officers mess, could that explain the tower?
The only other thing I can think of is it now used as a clubhouse for, golf, cricket, tennis etc.
As you will be able to tell, I have no idea!!
Pat
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Great observations Pat! Yes that does look like a tower on what is probably the front of the house, at a glance I thought it was just another chimney stack. All these clues help with the hunt, well spotted ;D
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It does look as though the house is up on a terrace - perhaps to take advantage of a view, which may also be the reason for the tower. By the sea perhaps?
I don't think this photo is taken from the back of the house though ...
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I think everyone is right to suggest the seaside.
The open windows and the ''observation tower'' do make me lean toward seaward views.
Is the aerial on the tower a communications device as opposed to weather vane? This would give a nod the to RAF idea by Trishanne
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I wonder if that post bottom right is one of a pair and used to hold a tennis net. Looks about the right height.
I think you're right George, also about the chairs being their to view the tennis! :)
Caz
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I wonder if it's a care home, sanatorium or something like that...look at the benches...just
made me think of that and a lot of the windows are open, which probably means
absolutely nothing ;D ;D
Joy
It does look for all the world like one of those houses you see in war films where the wounded are repatriated! As I said, it was taken around the same era as the others, so certainly could have been used by the forces (as was one of the other WAIs which I can't think of at the moment).
Caz
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.... a lot of the windows are open ...
Joy
Means it is a hot summer day probably. ;)
That is a huge greenhouse on the right. And behind that - is that part of the same property or a close neighbour?
I wonder that about the building behind and whether it's attached or it's some large outbuilding. Could be the neighbours as well.
Caz
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This again is probably the back of the house, although the greenhouse you would think would be at the back.
Is that a square tower showing between the 2nd and 3rd chimneys from the left?
Do you think it could look out to sea from that glassed tower?
Many large houses were taken over as RAF officers mess, could that explain the tower?
The only other thing I can think of is it now used as a clubhouse for, golf, cricket, tennis etc.
As you will be able to tell, I have no idea!!
Pat
I think there is another tower and that was also my thoughts that the tower provided a sea view.
I just hope it still stands. Perhaps it's been converted to flats (perish the thought), but you could be right and it's some sort of club house now. Doesn't look the right sort of building for conversion to a hotel, but you never know.
Caz
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Great observations Pat! Yes that does look like a tower on what is probably the front of the house, at a glance I thought it was just another chimney stack. All these clues help with the hunt, well spotted ;D
I agree, nothing like a good brainstorm and sharing of ideas! ;D All suggestions are welcome, as even the smallest clue helps!
Caz
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It does look as though the house is up on a terrace - perhaps to take advantage of a view, which may also be the reason for the tower. By the sea perhaps?
I don't think this photo is taken from the back of the house though ...
I just dug this up about Edwardian gardens, so if George is right and that is a tennis court, then this could well be the back, but of course, there are exceptions to every rule and there isn't much evidence to go on. I agree that the lawn area is sunken and the house built on a terrace.
"The Rear Garden
Some common features of the larger 20th Century gardens were a tennis court,
an aviary, a summerhouse or an arbour, a fernery or a shade house. These were
set in lawns and shrub garden beds. Hedges were grown along the side fences
and the favoured trees were large, introduced flowering trees."
This snippet was taken from a site detailing how to restore properties to ensure they are historically correct.
Caz
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I think everyone is right to suggest the seaside.
The open windows and the ''observation tower'' do make me lean toward seaward views.
Is the aerial on the tower a communications device as opposed to weather vane? This would give a nod the to RAF idea by Trishanne
It does seem to indicate seaside doesn't it and I agree with Ruskie, has a Kentish look to it.
Interesting thought about the aerial and could well be a good path to search, as in RAF commandeered homes during the war.
Caz
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I think that's a weather vane Caz. Any chance of a closeup? :-\
And also a better look at the 'tower' which looks like a chimney behind the house?
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I haven't had much success with the close ups, but here they are anyway. I am not sure whether
the tower is another chimney stack, it certainly seems to have a chimney, but it is quite large.
There is a weather vane on top of the tower, but there is also something on a pole in front of the tower.
The mystery goes on....
Pat
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Aw sorry, I meant to do this, but got side tracked. Thanks Pat. I'll get the original and just scan those areas, that might help a bit.
Caz
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Here is the tower.
Caz
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Um, if that's too big I can reduce it! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The chimneys.
Caz
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I thought it was a lightning conductor ???
Carol
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And the buildings to the side.
Is that a dog standing beside the bush?
Caz
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I wonder if that is another house or it's attached to our mystery dwelling.
Caz
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I thought it was a lightning conductor ???
Carol
Are we talking about the weather vane?
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No...the rod that someone thought was an Ariel.
Carol
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NO...THE ROD THAT SOMEONE THOUGHT WAS AN AREIL
;D ;D
I think the rod that someone thought was an aerial / lightning conductor is just a drainpipe ;D On the original photo there is a blob which appears to be something attached to it, but it does not appear in the close up. Must have just been a blob on the scanner.
Yes Caz, I spotted the dog too.
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The blob is actually on the photo and I cloned it out on the enlargement as it was distracting. ;D
I can't see a rod, just a drain pipe and a weather vane, but it is very late…so I will look again tomorrow.
Glad I wasn't seeing things with the doggy! ;D ;D
Caz
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Is it possible that this is another example of arts and craft architecture?
Nell
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Good to see the close-ups. :)
So definitely a weather vane.
Worthwhile zooming in I think as what I thought was a brick building is actually tile hung (in part at least) - I think this was more common in some areas than others?
And that appears to be a chimney rather than a tower, but much larger and out of proportion to the rest of the chimneys. It may be on a building behind the house and perhaps the depth of field gives the illusion that it is closer?
I think Nell might have a point with it being Arts and Crafts - might account for the style of windows, the tower, the bays and the awning over the front door ... and the mish mash look of the place.
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Thank you for the close ups.
I do now agree it is a weather vane...but I do see a further ''rod'' and to me it is either an aerial or a lightning conductor. The pole along the building looks to be an airshaft. ( is there a cellar?)
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Thank you for the close ups.
I do now agree it is a weather vane...but I do see a further ''rod'' and to me it is either an aerial or a lightning conductor. The pole along the building looks to be an airshaft. ( is there a cellar?)
Oh I see now what you mean, there is a rod to the right of the weather vane, and what I thought was a drainpipe ::) probably is an airshaft. I totally got the wrong end of the stick (or rod ;D)
I see what you were talking about now Carol ;)
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"Is it possible that this is another example of Arts and Crafts architecture?"
It could be Nell, the shape of the windows and relatively low roofline are
certainly reminiscent of that style but I wonder if perhaps it's too symmetrical :-\
What do the other sleuths think ???
Joy
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I'd guess that the building whose gable end faces us behind the greenhouse is a barn. The post in the immediate foreground was used to hold up a tennis net. At the top of the first, short staircase the capstones look like they may have been stathel stones. The first staircase may lead down to a road/driveway. I was going to hazard a guess at when it was built but looking at the ivy growth makes me wonder how long that would have taken in years.
What about the odd post to the side of the barn, looks like two metal posts coming together at the top in an inverted, narrow V?
S_L
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Can anyone make out what looks like writing on the backs of the
benches?
Joy
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I see what you were talking about now Carol ;)
Glad somebody does! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Just kidding Carol! ;D ;D ;D ;D :-* :-* :-*
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"Is it possible that this is another example of Arts and Crafts architecture?"
It could be Nell, the shape of the windows and relatively low roofline are
certainly reminiscent of that style but I wonder if perhaps it's too symmetrical :-\
What do the other sleuths think ???
Joy
I've done some looking into A & C architecture and I think Nell could be correct.
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I'd guess that the building whose gable end faces us behind the greenhouse is a barn. The post in the immediate foreground was used to hold up a tennis net. At the top of the first, short staircase the capstones look like they may have been stathel stones. The first staircase may lead down to a road/driveway. I was going to hazard a guess at when it was built but looking at the ivy growth makes me wonder how long that would have taken in years.
What about the odd post to the side of the barn, looks like two metal posts coming together at the top in an inverted, narrow V?
S_L
I'm disappointed SL, you forgot to tell us the type of material used in the curtains! :P :P ;D ;D
Powers of observation = 10/10!
Caz
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Can anyone make out what looks like writing on the backs of the
benches?
Joy
Hi Joy
Another person with wonderful observation skills, however sadly (and rather amusingly ), it's bird poop.
Caz
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Story of my life...missed again ;D
Joy
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Didn't notice earlier mention of tennis, shows how observant I am!
The item that I mentioned:
"What about the odd post to the side of the barn, looks like two metal posts coming together at the top in an inverted, narrow V?"
The post isn't at the side its at the top, to the right of the apex of the barn roof. Also along with being a narrow inverted V also has cross struts of some sort. Some kind of aerial? Pole to support a service of some sort, electricity, telephone?
S_L
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I don't think that's a barn - it looks to be in too good an order and the window looks glazed. Also with such a well manicured house, would there be a barn so close by? I may be wrong and I know the roofline is odd to be a house, but I'm just not convinced it is a barn. :-\ It does not help with the quest though.
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Caz, not many curtains there, mainly roller blinds which perhaps makes it less like a home if you know what I mean, some sort of institution perhaps. But what??!!
This must be one of the most minutely inspected properties around. Have you noticed the most unusual gable roofs over three of the dormers. I have been searching gable roof and dormers and I haven't seen one more example like this.
Pat
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S_L, I think that does look like a post for an aerial, perhaps radio communications or a floodlight. It gets more intriguing doesn't it.
Pat
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Ruskie, I agree I don't think it is a barn. Could it be the end view of another building going off towards the trees, perhaps added later as it looks a different style. In that case we could be looking for an L shaped property.
Pat
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From the close up image of the seat, I thought that the blinds at the windows behind it were venetian blinds, with quite heavy wooden slats. It suggests to me that the house faces south. Other blinds look more solid - two of the upstairs windows.
Also the trees behind are quite tall conifers with a distinct wind-blown look as if the prevailing wind direction is from the left-hand side of the photo. I think we are all agreed it is in Britain, so the wind prevailing wind direction is likely to be from the west. This would tend to support the idea that the house faces south.
I can't help but think that it is either in Surrey, possibly Surrey Heath area, or on the southern edge of the North Downs in Surrey or Kent, probably located on the higher ground looking out over the lower ground to the south.
Just some thoughts to throw into the mix.
Nell
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After looking at a lot of houses, I think this house could possibly be the style of architect Edwin Lutyens. Have a look, maybe one of us will find it :D
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Well done with the quest to name the wonderful buildings. So hooked on WAIs I just long to log on to check latest. This one makes me think of a club house rather than someone's house. Perhaps further south, somewhere like Bournemouth? Just a thought.
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reminds me of dorset too ...poole esp. ....the slatted blinds were still frequent when I was a child but seemed to disappear in ww2........a very long stench pipe up to the top of the tower from a w.c. the window is visible.....the building beyond seems to be a public area on the adjacent plot.. is it perhaps next to a park.......jimbach
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For what it's worth (probably not much) before I read the discussion I just had the feeling this is some sort of home or institution...I think it was the second set of doors. Not the front door but the pair of doors to the right of it sort of in the center of the building. It doesn't look like an ordinary house arrangement. I wonder if it might be a convalescent or nursing home as Joy suggested and the building at back could be for the staff...? Just a thought.
Or is it two buildings? The ivy on the middle chimney obscures it but could it be two buildings each with its own front door and a third one behind?
Cheers,
China
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Haven't been through this thread today, but will do later. Thanks everyone for their continued interest, I'm having so much fun, I can't tell you! ;D ;D
Caz
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Fascinating photos Caz. This one and the mock Tudor is a puzzle. Where is it? My life is on hold till I help you find it.....Giving it a nudge to the top.
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Many have talked about whether this is a club or sanatorium etc.
I feel it is in the vein of hospital or private hospital/sanatorium.
The building to the right could be a sunroom. I have come across a pic of Woodhurst Hospital peas Pottage that has a similar room with patients in it
http://www.slaughamarchives.org/picture/number1000.asp
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I think the same thing, that was the first thing I thought of in reply no 5...
great minds think alike :D ;D
Joy
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I won't go through everyone's thread individually so as to not bore people, but there has been some very interesting observations made.
One common thing I read all the time is that the larger homes were commandeered during the war and there is no reason why this could not have been one of them and possibly remained as a sanatorium, particularly if it was by the sea.
The photo on dgibbins link is very similar in style.
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I haven't responded individually to the last couple of page, so instead many thanks to Still Looking; Joy; Ruskie; Pat; Little Nell, Jool, China, Jimbach, Brazillian Bombshell and dgibbins plus anyone else out there tearing their hair out over this one. Your time and effort as always is very much appreciated.
This one is proving to be very difficult, but the observations everyone has made are quite remarkable. Remind me never to play Cluedo with you lot! ;D
Caz
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I can't make my mind up over this one..
http://media.rightmove.co.uk/87k/86308/38288351/86308_HORL3748172_IMG_01_0001.jpg
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Certainly similar Hepburn but not the one I don't think :)
It looks to have different bricks on the end near the sunroom/greenhouse...could be my eyes
though :D
Joy
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I feel it is a bigger building and while there has been some additional work to the front I wouldn't feel comfortable saying yes it is :(
I spent an hour or more on ipernity, the link given by someone here, and stopped at the Ds :-\
Each building blends into the next
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Hepburn, it is very similar in style, but I don't think it's the one. It has the unusual window gable, the same as No. 12, I wonder if the same architect designed both.
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It said something about it being 'Vernacular Revival'????
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This one is really cracking me now! Come on Yorkslass, use your architectural knowledge and imaginative search words and put us out of our misery please ;D
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Oh Jool, believe me I've tried!
Every different word for "tower" known to man, I think ::)
Plus the different styles of building - arts & crafts, vernacular revival and other sorts of revival, Lutyens, Morris, Pugin, hospital, asylums, schools.
It's those odd bay windows that are defeating me. Can't find any similar.
It's such an unusual house .... and as has happened before, it may well be the back of it that has been photographed.
Yorkslass
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When you say the odd bay windows, do you mean the sloping roof inset under the apex?
I've seen it a couple of times but neither were in the uk. One was in Australia the other in the USA. Not convinced that it is abroad, suspect earlier post about the tower being for looking out to sea might be right.
Think I found the similar roofs by looking for shingled along with beach house.
S_L
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I still think this is a view of the front of the house. Odd having two front doors though. Is it a semi?
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I suppose it could be Ruskie, there are at least two different kinds of bricks
used I think :-\
Joy
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I still think this is a view of the front of the house. Odd having two front doors though. Is it a semi?
Interesting. I had thought it was the front until I read this ??? ??? if that makes sense.
Taking another look I can be convinced it is the back view. Looking at the glasshouse there seems to be a brick building in front, which I had not noticed as being part of the building. If we take it as attached then it could be a garage addition and we are looking at the back towards the tennis court/play area and a sea view.
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I was thinking it could be somewhere the families had visited and why would they visit. Could it be a school? The Moon family and the Clifton Brown family all went to Eton and this is not Eton, but they would go to a prep school before. On the Eton site I found a list of prep schools that send pupils to Eton and I have had a start at looking.
Some of these schools are very rambling made up of lots of different buildings. If the photo was taken of just one section which is relevant to the family, like the school house their boy is in, it could be almost impossible to identify the school.
I did think I had found it, have a look at http://www.cothill.net/ but I don't think it is. The first picture shows one of the buildings, the second is a closer look at the window, which is very similar. If you look on Google images you will find one which shows how rambling it is.
Pat
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I'm still unsure whether or not it could be two properties?
Carol
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Interesting thought Pat, it could well be part of a school. Maybe a check on the census to see if it shows any of the Moon or Clifton Brown children at boarding school.
I have been googling "tile hung house" which came up with a promising selection of houses, but I haven't found it yet.
My internet was down yesterday so I was a bit frustrated that I was not able to see what was going on here :( It seems OK at the moment but I don't know how long it will hold out so I may disappear suddenly ::)
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Here is the boarding school that Geoffrey Clifton-Brown was attending in 1911 which I posted on a previous Where am I topic:
http://www.whoisgeorgemills.com/2011/05/gardens-and-sick-wing-at-warren-hill.html
Carol
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Thanks for finding that Carol. Oh well, there's nothing familiar looking there, but it does have a 'large glass arboretum'
Pat
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Apparently this tower is part of the old coastguard station. I'm not suggesting the building is the one we're looking for but the construction of this looks very similar.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2951168
S_L
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The top of that tower is so similar, even the glazing bars are the same pattern, I can't see enough of the rest of the tower to compare. Of course things will have been restored now so it is hard to tell. I can't make the gables and roof line fit though to match 'our' house. If you look at The Bill House on Google earth it has a huge courtyard, but I can't find an image of the backs to the buildings, so can't tell. Though if it would be the backs, the tower is in the wrong place ???
I cannot find another tower to match this one as yet, but I'm sure you are on the right lines.
Sorry another ramble from me.
Pat
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That's a good find S_L .
First time I've seen a tower even remoteley resembling our mystery house.
This old photo shows the house in 1928 from above
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw024675
And yes, in answer to your previous question, it was the bay window roofs I was mystified about.
I've seen some similar, but none with that space below the apex.
Yorkslass
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That's another listed building:
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=301066&mode=quick
Another search term to try (coast guard house towers) but it brings up a lot of US photos. :(
Nell
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Another search term to try (coast guard house towers) but it brings up a lot of US photos. :(
Nell
Oi stop nicking my search terms ;D
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Apparently this tower is part of the old coastguard station. I'm not suggesting the building is the one we're looking for but the construction of this looks very similar.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2951168
S_L
Very similar indeed and if nothing else, confirms we are looking for a seaside location. Trouble is, would this building be listed and if not, could some philistine :P of a renovator been allowed to remove it? :( Could we be looking for a converted seaside hotel/conference centre?
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The top of that tower is so similar, even the glazing bars are the same pattern, I can't see enough of the rest of the tower to compare. Of course things will have been restored now so it is hard to tell. I can't make the gables and roof line fit though to match 'our' house. If you look at The Bill House on Google earth it has a huge courtyard, but I can't find an image of the backs to the buildings, so can't tell. Though if it would be the backs, the tower is in the wrong place ???
I cannot find another tower to match this one as yet, but I'm sure you are on the right lines.
Sorry another ramble from me.
Pat
Not a ramble at all Pat, it's great to keep the discussion going and give other people ideas and food for thought! ;)
Caz
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I'm still unsure whether or not it could be two properties?
Carol
I think the first set of doors which are partly obscured, are just something like french doors that open, probably from the sitting room to allow access to the tennis area (as opposed to a major entrance way).
What is odd, is the big building at the back on the RHS as it appears really close.
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And the buildings to the side.
Is that a dog standing beside the bush?
Caz
From reply 26. Photo
On the far left wall, that's recessed back a bit, high up, there is a whitish brick. Looks to me like the word WELCOME, or maybe its just my eyes playing tricks, but a bit high for doggy poohs!
Can't imagine why that would be way up there though!
But I kept going back to it, so though I had better get an official NAH!! Laugh if you like 😄
Jeanne
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Nobody will laugh Jeanne! All comments and suggestions welcome! ;)
I think it's a brick with holes in it. I can't remember the reason why, but we have small slits in our walls, not sure if it's to allow access to the inner cavity, allow water to escape or what. Someone with home construction knowledge might be able to help us out, if in fact that's what it is.
Caz
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You are right Cazza. They are ventilation holes. Usually to allow air to flow inside the cavity wall to prevent moisture build up , but also to allow heat to escape ( in summer)
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Never heard of slits in walls before, missing pointing? Or are they vertical, in which case does your house name start 'Castle...'?
;)
S_L
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You are right Cazza. They are ventilation holes. Usually to allow air to flow inside the cavity wall to prevent moisture build up , but also to allow heat to escape ( in summer)
I knew there was some logical explanation! ;D Well, that's what I think the brick is that Jeanne mentions, but I could be way off base.
Caz
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Never heard of slits in walls before, missing pointing? Or are they vertical, in which case does your house name start 'Castle...'?
;)
S_L
Must be an Aussie thing..they are vertical slits the height of a brick. I could show you a photo of Casa del Caz if you're interested.
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Brick type
(http://www.diyinfozone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Air-Brick-for-Floor-Ventilation.jpg)
Slit type ( weep holes in US)
(http://www.todayshomeowner.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/766-ad-sealing-weep-holes-brick-walls.jpg)
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Is it fanciful to think it might be a country cricket ground? I just looked at a few images & some have that slope down from the pavilion - some of which are quite grand.
I originally thought the tower looked like a coastguard lookout, but I'm now wondering if it's a 'commentary box' for some kind of sport cricket ,(although no sign of a scoreboard) or horse-riding?
Just trying to think 'outside the box'!
Pat
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It does look like a country club/cricket club I have to admit.
There are also four buildings. You have the front one of course, then the greenhouse, then the house behind the green house which appears to have an attic conversion and a side chimney and then the larger house at the back….bizarre.
Caz
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Brick type
(http://www.diyinfozone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Air-Brick-for-Floor-Ventilation.jpg)
Slit type ( weep holes in US)
(http://www.todayshomeowner.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/766-ad-sealing-weep-holes-brick-walls.jpg)
Weep holes!!! That's the name I've been trying to think of!! ;D ;D Well anyway, I have weep holes just like that at Casa del Caz.
I'm going to dissect and scan this photo some more and see if we can spot any other weird and wonderful features.
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Now Cazza , I have seen this done on tv so it should be easy ::) :-*
Zoom into the windows and look for reflections so we can determine the opposite view.
CSI and NCIS do it in less than 42 minutes ;D
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Caz,
I believe the non filled in slits in brickwork, as per dgibbins image, are for air circulation or expansion and are located below the level of the floor.
Yes, there are holes in bricks - something which I believe (in Australia at least) came in the 70s with 'textured' bricks. :P Prior to that there was just a 'dip' in the centre of the brick.
Never seen bricks with the square holes though. The holes I am familar with are those in the second images here:
http://www.austceram.com/_literature_162233/Vol_50-1-69_Inglis_ACS_Paper :)
100s of years of brickmaking in my family, but knowledge lost in the last two generations.
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A pic from the UK
(http://www.cropthornehouse.co.uk/11-10_30_welcome_to_cropthorne/04.jpg)
Most houses have them low but I have seen houses with them below roof level. In flood prone areas it is recommended to place them higher
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My OH has always called them air bricks. I've just had to go outside & look at ours ;D, not exactly bricks, more a sort of grill with diamond shaped holes, just above the damp-proof course just above ground level.
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Yes, they are situated below floor level for air circulation.
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I think they're situated at ground level on my house - purely and simply to let the ants inside!!
;D ;D ;D
Jeanne
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My house was built in 2000 and we have them underneath the windows upstairs and also dotted over each wall.
I don't like having them as I'm sure that's how spiders get in and as you know, in Australia, we take our spiders for walks on leads! :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caz
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I don't like having them as I'm sure that's how spiders get in and as you know, in Australia, we take our spiders for walks on leads! :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caz
My great Aunt & Uncle used to tell me about the huge Huntsman spiders galloping around their house in Canberra. They said they tolerated them because they killed the smaller more dangerous spiders. I googled them, scary looking creatures :o
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I don't think it is, but do you feel we're getting closer? ;D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/St-Faiths-Church-from-Gardens-Maidstone-Kent-Old-Postcard-Ref-6-274-/231128777588
Yorkslass
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Is this closer?
Cerne Abbas Convalescent
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1401/4732845303_43d53d1ce9.jpg)
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Having Internet issues again. About to post close ups, when I get connection. I think a convalescent home or private hospital is getting close to the mark. I know you were joking but reflected in the top floor windows are large trees. The house is covered in bird poop which I think again suggests coastal area. There are several chimneys which also makes me think the house may be L Shaped or bigger than we think.
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I'm up and running again, but goodness knows for how long! ::)
Have a look at the attached. The position of what looks to be two chimneys on the far RHS, or is it some sort of connecting wall, that is attached to a chimney which appears to be attached to the small dwelling with the skylight windows.
The part with the skylight windows (behind the green house) could be attached or separate to the large dwelling behind, however as the roof tiles match, I'm assuming it's attached.
There appears to be little room between the greenhouse and what could be a small extension and the larger dwelling at the back.
There also appears to be a wall or fence which to me suggests this is all one property (not shown in this photo).
I don't know, but I think a hospital or convalesce home could be right on the money with may be staff accommodation at the back, hospital laundry or incinerator, they grow their own veggies for therapy, and somebody help me cos I'm running out of straws to grasp!! ;D ;D ;D
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From the number of chimneys, it looks to me that perhaps the main building is quite large and goes back further on the left hand side.
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I think both Yorkslass and dgibbins are getting close, so whatever search parameters you are using, keeping going! ;D ;D
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Here's the side chimney, which I think is odd.
Caz
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It's good to see the close ups Caz, you can see a lot more detail than in the original photo. Your observations and "straw grasping" give us some food for thought too ;D
I'm sure we have all been hoping to find an online image taken from a similar angle to your photo, but I think we should look at the finer details and focus on an image from another angle. Surely the tower would be visible whichever way you looked at it.
Not sure what my search terms are going to be this time, but I'm off for another mooch.
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Oh good. If nothing else, it might give people more ideas on search terms. Forgot to say in the last photo I posted, you can see the gate and wall. Also there appears to be a small awning, which suggests another entrance.
Hope this doesn't send people on a wild goose chase, but where would there be a wooded area, close to the ocean?
Caz
PS I meant to tell you, when searching the other day, I managed to get your avatar to come up under "images". I also got really excited as I thought for a second I'd cracked where am No. 18 (or 19 can't remember) the thatched farm house, but then I realised I'd found my own photo. ::) ::) ::) ;D
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Caz, I have seen both of our avatars pop up in searches ;D ;D
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Caz, I have seen both of our avatars pop up in searches ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
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That's a good find S_L .
First time I've seen a tower even remoteley resembling our mystery house.
This old photo shows the house in 1928 from above
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw024675
And yes, in answer to your previous question, it was the bay window roofs I was mystified about.
I've seen some similar, but none with that space below the apex.
Yorkslass
Try lock house, partridge green. Remodelled in 1930 but i'm not convinced its the one. Sticking with Sussex as a likely location due to the tower and seeing a few pics with similar trees.
S_L
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Haha Adele owns/owned it
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2101830/Adele-new-house-As-scoops-6-Grammys-singer-moves-world.html
I saw this woman with big hair on some RE show a few weeks ago and I wanted to scream get a hair cut. Then I realised it was Adele. And I still said it ;D
But gee its close , some more investigating on the original Harvey Family property
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Have I completely lost the plot, or can you see a face in the top left set of windows - you have to zoom quite a way in........ (really does look like a flesh and blood face, not a ghostly apparition!!)
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Think its just the tree foliage reflected in the window.
S_L
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I am sure you are right, but it really does look like an old woman sat in a chair staring wistfully out of the window! Presumably though, it that were so, we would have a name for the house - Bates Motel!
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I am sure you are right, but it really does look like an old woman sat in a chair staring wistfully out of the window! Presumably though, it that were so, we would have a name for the house - Bates Motel!
I have been watching the current series of Bates Motel which I have to admit I'm enjoying.
Zooming in on very high resolution copy, it is as SL says, reflected trees, but ten points for imagination Spidermonkey! ;D ;D
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Could it be a world War two medical facility?
Or an Isolation hospital for TB sufferers?
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I have seen something very similar to that.
It used to be the Superintendents House for an Isolation Hospital in North Wales.
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Caz, not many curtains there, mainly roller blinds which perhaps makes it less like a home if you know what I mean, some sort of institution perhaps. But what??!!
This must be one of the most minutely inspected properties around. Have you noticed the most unusual gable roofs over three of the dormers. I have been searching gable roof and dormers and I haven't seen one more example like this.
Pat
One of my relatives once lived in a Nursing home with a very similar Side face like this building. There had been a large Isolation hospital there at one time, probably in the 1930s. This was the side of the house, and there was a long fish pond behind that bank. The lawn in the foreground was quite a large square lawn.
It had been the Hospital Superintendents house at one time, like 60 years ago.
It could have been a WW2 military convalescent home, and this building could have been staff accommodation and a "mess"
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Some of you may have already tried this, but I have been searching using the term "cottage hospital" and it is bringing up some quite encouraging results, similar size and style of building, but as yet no luck :(. It's possible it's there but photographed from the other side.
It's something else to try if you haven't already ;D
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Is it possible that the building just visible behind the house could be deceptively further away than it actually appears to be?
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Here is what I think it is Fron Yw, Llangwyfan. near Llandyrnog LL16, Denbighshire.
It used to be The Superintendents house for the hospital.
I will try to get more evidence tomorrow.
Behind the two park benches do you think that wall surrounds a Fish pond or a lilly pond, about five feet wide but about 50 feet long.
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Official name of the Hospital (If I have the right location)
King Edward VII memorial Hospital for North Wales.
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Fron Yw seems to be a nursing home. No street view of this place on google maps. Very few images of it but from what I can see it does not look like the mystery house.
I can't find King Edward V11 hospital North Wales - are you saying that Fron Yw was once the superintendent's house for this hospital? :-\ The Fron Yw I found is in the middle of nowhere.
Can you provide images or links to images?
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Here is what I think it is Fron Yw, Llangwyfan. near Llandyrnog LL16, Denbighshire.
It used to be The Superintendents house for the hospital.
King Edward VII memorial Hospital for North Wales.
I think this is the place you refer to :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fl0/
image 1 is a plan of the Superintendent's house.
Sorry, but I can't see any resemblance :-\
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Fron Yw seems to be a nursing home. No street view of this place on google maps. Very few images of it but from what I can see it does not look like the mystery house.
I can't find King Edward V11 hospital North Wales - are you saying that Fron Yw was once the superintendent's house for this hospital? :-\ The Fron Yw I found is in the middle of nowhere.
Can you provide images or links to images?
It was known as Llangwyfan Sanatorium. The Superintendents House was at least a quarter of a mile from other parts of the hospital. I am searching for more photos this morning. I have found something on Youtube on Llangwyfan which gets close to it.
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It was known as Llangwyfan Sanatorium. The Superintendents House was at least a quarter of a mile from other parts of the hospital. I am searching for more photos this morning. I have found something on Youtube on Llangwyfan which gets close to it.
Have you looked at the link I provided above (reply #127)?
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It was known as Llangwyfan Sanatorium. The Superintendents House was at least a quarter of a mile from other parts of the hospital. I am searching for more photos this morning. I have found something on Youtube on Llangwyfan which gets close to it.
Have you looked at the link I provided above?
Yes. Plans dated January 1914 .
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I think not the mystery house. :-\
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Search terms
Convalescent
Art & Craft Convalescent. ( lot of people knitting ::) )
Soldiers Convalescent
Sailors Convalescent
Railway workers mission
House with tower
House with observation
Private House with tower
Private Childrens Hospital
Private Hospital
Art & Craft Hospital ( more people playing board games)
Edward Lutyens Private
Art & Craft Lutyens
Nursing Home
Private Nursing Home
Private House 1900s
Private House 1930s
Wartime Attachment House
and ad infinitum
:(
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I am convinced that it is Fron Yw Llangwyfan, Denbighshire.
All I need is to find proof.
My Auntie was a resident there when it was a Nursing Home about five or six years ago. Our photos are packed away at the moment.
The main entrance is round to the left of this photo.
Behind the benches you can see a low wall, that is the wall of a fish or ornamental Lilly pond, about 5 feet wide and about 50 feet long. The steps go down to a large lawn profuse with daffodils in Spring.
There was a statue or a bust of a Roman senator in that lawn.
Its a remote spot, so streetview does not extend to it.
Search for Llangwyfan Sanatorium. Superintendents House.
It has been an independent Nursing home latterly. Up until about 5 years ago. Search for Nursing homes for sale. Probably from the Chester offices of High priced Mansions.
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I can't find a picture of a "superintendents house" however there are several photos of the buildings of the Denbigh Sanitorium here (which I think is the same place as the Llangwyfan Sanitorium?):
http://www.francisfrith.com/denbigh/denbigh-block-6-north-wales-sanatorium-c1935_d22080
(use back and forward arrows)
These all seem to be of a particular style which bears no resemblance to the mystery house.
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Sorry Scouseboy, looking at the link to the plans Jen posted in reply #127, I can't see any resemblance to our mystery house either :-\
If you have located a photo could you please provide a link to it so that we can see for ourselves. I have searched for a photo of the Superintendent's house but only came up with the plan Jen posted.
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Sorry Scouseboy, looking at the link to the plans Jen posted in reply #127, I can't see any resemblance to our mystery house either :-\
If you have located a photo could you please provide a link to it so that we can see for ourselves. I have searched for a photo of the Superintendent's house but only came up with the plan Jen posted.
I suspect that those drawings never got further than just being a Plan, Because ww1 probably put a stop on those plans.
What I suspect happened that the hospital bought a private house for expediency, to use that as the Superintendents House. The Hospital was on a large site 540 acres I believe. The superintendents house was outside the hospital perimeter.
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Since there was mention of a possible hospital/sanitorium, I went through this, but nothing fitted. There are some excellent photographs which are worth a look I you have a mind to and some spare time.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/sets/72157639529185974/page1
Regards
Malky
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Here is what I think it is Fron Yw, Llangwyfan. near Llandyrnog LL16, Denbighshire.
Photo of Fron Yw Nursing Home, Llandyrnog
http://www.northwalescare.org.uk/caresearch/pages/1896/nursing_homes_in_denbigh
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Deleted ... bad timing ;D
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Here is what I think it is Fron Yw, Llangwyfan. near Llandyrnog LL16, Denbighshire.
Photo of Fron Yw Nursing Home, Llandyrnog
http://www.northwalescare.org.uk/caresearch/pages/1896/nursing_homes_in_denbigh
Thank you for finding that photo. You can see the points which are identical. The bank, the steps, The Ivy or creeper. It will be interesting to find out when the modifications and improvements were made.
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When you compare the photos, it becomes obvious that virtually everything that could be different about these two houses IS different. They are not the same place.
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You can see the points which are identical. The bank, the steps, The Ivy or creeper.
I'm afraid they are the only things which are the same and can be found on/around thousands of houses. I have to agree with Mike, it's not the same house.
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Like others, I'm really struggling to see the points on the building which might match up. :(
To me the obvious differences are:
chimneys - altered position and one removed completely.
roofline - shape altered completely from hipped to gable
mullion windows where there weren't any before
missing upper storey on the right hand side?
change from tile hung upper storey to bare stone? is it
Yes the bank is there and some steps - but many buildings have something similar :-\
I think we're still looking.
Nell
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However, it is the same site and the same location.
It has been adapted and modified over a period of 100 years or more.
This is like the discussion and debate over the building in India
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Even the bank and steps are only superficially similar. Look at where the steps are in relation to the two houses. For the steps to be the same (and they're not) the whole house would have had to be picked up and moved to the left (as well as being totally rebuilt in a different shape and orientation).
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Another one on the other side of the boat scouseboy I am afraid :)
I don't even think there are 12 steps which , trust me , I counted in the original :-[
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I'm another one who can't see any similarities between Fron Yw as posted by Jen, and our mystery house. (apart from a the banks which are also different).
Most definitely they are different houses, and even if there had been alterations they wouldn't have bothered to alter the building materials, all the windows, all the chimneys, the entire roofline etc etc .... :P
I think you're on your own with this one ScouseBoy, and you did say on another thread that you'd lost your glasses. ;D 8)
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I can't get past the idea of this being the rear view of a country club....golf, cricket, tennis or crown green bowling....could the seats be for teams....or observation ...and the observation tower too is an interesting feature....just me thinking aloud...but I could be way off the mark.
But in common with others....I keep coming back to this one.
Carol
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I can't get past the idea of this being the rear view of a country club....golf, cricket, tennis or crown green bowling....could the seats be for teams....or observation ...and the observation tower too is an interesting feature....just me thinking aloud...but I could be way off the mark.
But in common with others....I keep coming back to this one.
Carol
Interesting thoughts Carol, I hadn't thought of the possibility of the tower being a viewpoint for sporting events, possibly an umpire, hmmm, keep thinking aloud Carol ;)
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I think we all keep coming back to this one we don't like to be beaten.
I think I have used all the search criteria mentioned plus many more.
Officers mess
Sergeants mess
Sports club houses [as previously mentioned]
Coastguard properties
Sanitariums
School
Rehabilitation centres
Houses designed by M H Baillie Scott
etc
I keep going back to WAI 4. the children playing in the rock pools on the East Lothian coast, with Bass Rock in the background, where were they staying? If you look at my maps, there is nowhere close, considering the year and the transport available.
Could this be the area to look in?
I have looked, but haven't found.....yet
Pat
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I am (very) likely to be wrong, but to me this house has the look of more southerly counties, but I like your thinking Pat. :) Observation tower and house by the sea - makes sense ...
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I've been concentrating on the south too, but you never know, this property could fool us [well it has hasn't it]
Have a look at Muirfield golf clubhouse, it is in the right direction and there are loads of other properties like this
The nearest property we have identified is Balhomie and that is 88 miles on todays roads from Dunbar and Bass rock. That is a long way to take the children for a day out.
Pat
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The unusual gable windows are a unique feature of this building. I have seen very few of a similar style, but most I have seen have been in Wales. I suppose it's possible that the tower may have been removed later, so maybe we shouldn't rely on "tower" as part of out search term ??? Like Carol, just thinking aloud.
Please someone find it soon! This is the unsolved WAI I would love to be found.
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I think it's the cladding on the upper storey combined with brickwork, and the 30s style bays that makes me think southern counties (though I think there is something about 'the feel' of the house which I can't explain) ... But the Muirfield clubhouse has a similar appearance .... :-\
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In the enlargement of the tower in post 26, is that a face at the window?
What other reasons could there be for such a tower?
Coast guard observation? Hobby or bird watching?
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back on page 8, I linked to another building with a very similar tower. It was an old coastguard station or lookout at one point according to a passing reference on a birdwatching site. According to some listed building information the house its associated with was built in 1907 though the tower may be more recent. I did find reference to a lot of building in the twenties but nothing with any useful details.
Made wonder if the gable end at the side was that of a boat house.
S_L
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Just noted that the building with the similar tower was by Baillie Scott.
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Problem with this building, is the renovations, additions which have been made. The bay windows are aditions, hence the "2 stage Dormer roofs" on them. The right hand gable is different building material to the main face, except the wall to the left of the right hand door. The facing slate work is corrugated above the left door, but square above the right. There are several chimney stacks behind the visable part of the building, plus another peaked roof behind the glass house. It's a "nightmare" to tie down using search paramaters.
Regards
Malky
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My reply #71 on page 8 of this thread shows photos of Cothill school in Oxfordshire with similar windows and similar design to this one. I can't find the architect though.
Pat
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I think both Yorkslass and dgibbins are getting close, so whatever search parameters you are using, keeping going! ;D ;D
Once again another convalescent home
Note the sunhouse to one side. The lawn and the similar styles
Hope this works http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mitcham-Mrs-Gladstones-Convalescent-Home-by-J-J-Kenyon-Mitcham-/390775533550
I just feel it is convalescent. Infirmary. Hospital etc. :(
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Now I know for sure this one is cracking me, I had a dream about it last night ::) I dreamt that someone had found it (don't know who!) and the tower could barely be seen as it blended in with trees in the background as the image was quite dark.
Interesting point SL about the side building possibly being a boat house.
Malky, very interesting observations too, I think I have been focusing too much on the unusual gable windows and as you say the bay windows are possibly later additions.
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I really don't want to expand the geography of this as I'm still going with south or south-east England.
If you search for life saving station 1920s or earlier you get quite a few from the states which include two story buildings with lookouts, boat houses and radio masts.
There is of course the issue of only finding what you're looking for rather than what the building actually is.
S_L
p.s. and of course its highly unlikely they'd have a greenhouse unless they needed to grow their own food for some reason. On that point I did wonder about a re-purposed private house or simply that the building is larger because at the time it was developed there was more man power involved than machine.
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I am just packing to go on my jollies for a couple of weeks - I hope to see this one solved by the time I get back - no pressure ;D ;D
You will probably have got to WAI 150 by then - happy hunting :D
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Enjoy.
Regards
Malky
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I am just packing to go on my jollies for a couple of weeks - I hope to see this one solved by the time I get back - no pressure ;D ;D
You will probably have got to WAI 150 by then - happy hunting :D
Bon Voyage
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I am just packing to go on my jollies for a couple of weeks - I hope to see this one solved by the time I get back - no pressure ;D ;D
You will probably have got to WAI 150 by then - happy hunting :D
Have a great time! We'll miss you! :'(
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Thanks everyone, I'll miss you lot and the WAI's too, but I'm sure a couple of glasses of vino will help me get over it ;D
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Just thinking aloud....
I think the left hand building is the original house, probably a Victorian villa - there is a sash window on the right-hand side and the middle upstairs window has sash-like proportions. As Malky suggested, I think the, possibly 1920s, bays were added, perhaps when the building was extended and changed use? It looks like the right-hand building could be a 3 stage extension - first time they mimicked the bays on the left-hand building, second bit they just added a token gable, then the tower was added last? Towers seem fairly common in old convalescent homes although I haven't found why. The cowled chimney pots suggest somewhere windy.
Have a good time Jool :D
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I return from research in a Denbighshire Library, with much more knowledge of cures and treatment for T.B, and the Llangwyfan Sanatorium.
Let me just quote from a book, please?
"The Vron Yw estate of 264 acres including a house and two cottages was purchased by WNMA [the Hospital] in 1930. It was higher up the mountain than the church, and the house had been rebuilt on the site of another older house in 1916. It became the home of the medical superintendent and later became a nursing home"
Could the house in our photo be the house prior to 1916?
Vron Yw was occupied by Mr Behrens, a prosperous businessman, he sold it in 1930 for £7820
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Could the house in our photo be the house prior to 1916?
Based on what?
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I know the possibility of it being related to the coastguard has been mentioned a while back (largely due to the tower and something similar on the south coast), but I think that should be ruled out.
Coastguard stations were built to a fairly standard architectural design. There are some good examples shown in the photos here:
http://www.coastguardsofyesteryear.org/photogallery.php?album_id=5
and here:
http://www.hm-waterguard.org.uk/Offices%20&%20Buildings-Coastguard.htm
There were often a row of four (or more) cottages in a row for the men who manned the station, plus a watch tower. That watch tower often had a battlemented or plain flat roofline. Since the purpose of the coastguard was originally to prevent smuggling, the buildings were very basic and unpretentious in design.
Our mystery house shows no resemblance to the standard row of cottages - it would have been a complete demolition and rebuild job. Many are now holiday homes e.g. at Lulworth Cove, Mullion Cove and Pendeen.
But, lots of houses in coastal locations - near commercial harbours perhaps - had towers built that were above the normal roofline and provided an excellent view of shipping that was entering port. There is quite a good example on Trefusis Road in Flushing. And there is another in Leith in Scotland (except that has an open gazebo tower - pretty chilly observation post, I would have thought ;) )
So perhaps we should be looking for somewhere near a harbour.
I still think it's southern England though.
Nell
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I too have always thought that this house was in the south and near the coast - the way it is built for one. The windswept (pine?) trees may also be a clue. I have found examples of the bay window roofing mainly in Hampshire/Isle of Wight although I still can`t rule out Sussex and Dorset. It still doesn`t help and I have spent hours (probably days) looking for it. I just wish someone could find it. ::)
Mo
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Yes, those are Scots pine trees. You find them all over, of course, but very narrow pine belts like that are very typical of Breckland.
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Can't believe people are still persisting with this one, it's nearly 3 months to the day since I first posted it. :D
When I look at it again, I still get the impression it's not a "family" home, but it does have some other distinctive purpose. Can't explain why, just the look of the place.
Have we exhausted nursing/retirement homes, convalescent homes, retired veterans home, country/sporting clubs, b & bs, hotels…
That tower was built for a purpose..the view…a retreat…official lookout…but may have now been removed if the house still stands.
Of course, the house could have been destroyed, torn down, converted…. :(
Probably haven't suggested a single new idea. :-\
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I think we've all searched terms like that Caz but it continues to be
elusive :( I did find a house in Scotland with a tower like that one but the house
was different :'(
I do think the tower had a specific purpose ( now there's an original thought ;D ;D ;D)
Joy
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My research locally indicates that the house was re-modelled or Re-built in 1916.
I believe that it is Fron Yw or Vron Yw in Llangwyfan near Denbigh.
I suggest people search on the alternative spelling of Vron Yw owned by a Mr Behrens, presumably a wealthy business man.
Someone may like to search the 1901 Census for who lived at Vron Yw Llangwyfan and the adjacent Fron Yw cottages.
A relative of mine until recently lived at Fron Yw nursing home. Fron Yw is no longer a Nursing home. The tall trees, the grassy bank, the steps, the other building in the background, all indicate to me that they relate to the site of the building in the photo on post one of this thread. My son has run down that grassy bank. It is quite a remote rural spot. High up on the Clwydian Hills near to Penycloddau hill fort. The tower would have given excellent views across the Vale of Clwyd.
I believe that it can be proved that the photo was of Vron Yw, Llangwyfan before it was re-built or re-modelled.
I will try to get additional information from the records office or other local historians.
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I believe that it is Fron Yw or Vron Yw in Llangwyfan near Denbigh.
Still? Have you looked at any of the previous posts pointing out the considerable differences between the two houses?
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I believe that it is Fron Yw or Vron Yw in Llangwyfan near Denbigh.
The house shown in the photograph WAS re-built in 1916.
The trees and the grassy bank and other identical factors such as the building in the background suggest that I am right.
Look at the Census for confirmation is my suggestion.
Still? Have you looked at any of the previous posts pointing out the considerable differences between the two houses?
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I believe that it is Fron Yw or Vron Yw in Llangwyfan near Denbigh.
Still? Have you looked at any of the previous posts pointing out the considerable differences between the two houses?
There are CONSIDERABLE similarities.
the term Re-built accounts for those minor differences.
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Scouseboy , I appreciate your dogged persistence in your belief that this property is the one we are after.
But , I would , and I am certain others would , like to see more than suggestions and statements that buildings change. Otherwise I would assert Cerne Abbas is our building. ;D
If you can give definitive proof - a photo - or a website that describes the building and its changes that match the visual , then I will be the first in a long line of people to congratulate you and admit I was wrong. :)
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Thank you. I am looking for that information locally and currently.
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FAR too many differences Scouseboy - FAR too many!
No matter what you call it "Fron Yw or Vron Yw in Llangwyfan" - it makes no difference.
Fron Yw or Vron Yw is NOT Caz's mystery house. ::)
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I believe that it is Fron Yw or Vron Yw in Llangwyfan near Denbigh.
I suggest people search on the alternative spelling of Vron Yw owned by a Mr Behrens, presumably a wealthy business man.
Someone may like to search the 1901 Census for who lived at Vron Yw Llangwyfan and the adjacent Fron Yw cottages.
I think it's up to you to do these and other searches and prove this beyond reasonable doubt :)
Look at the Census for confirmation is my suggestion.
I don't understand how the census will confirm you are right :-\
I've compared the photos many times and can see hardly any points of similarity.
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Right lets regroup on this one.
Tell me whether you agree or disagree with my thoughts.
Not a family home, suggesting convalescent home, nursing home, sanatorium, WW1 hospital etc.
The tower suggesting there is something worth looking at, sea view/harbour being the obvious thought.
Trees in the background. Appear to be leaning to the right suggesting the prevailing wind is coming from the left ie. south west.
The alternative to that is that it was blowing a gale when the photo was taken.
Pine trees, could be many coastal locations in England, Scotland or Wales.
The large amount of open windows in the photo again bringing me back to something like a sanatorium.
The green house/conservatory/orangery, they were built originally to house ornamental plants or tender fruit etc. does this suggest it was originally a family home that had been converted to something else? I don't know if the style of that could help with date. Or again was it built as some form of rehabilitation for the patients.
Lawn appears to be covered in daisies, so not close mown again suggesting some kind of institution etc.
Why no sign of any human anywhere? Odd.
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I agree with your thoughts jaywit, I said in the beginning that I thought it was
a convalescent/ sanatorium...I just can't find it :'(
Joy
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All of that sounds about right.
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Scouseboy I await the results of your research, which should be interesting :)
If you prove your case :-\ there's a bottle of cyber champagne coming your way ;D
Joy
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Jaywit , those are the points I have been chasing as well. Even to the point of looking at childrens homes and private boarding schools etc. The picture taken in holidays would point to the lack of lawn care and people.
I am currently going through a list of Lost Country Houses. Only 1915 to go ::) ??? :-[
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My take on this comment "Why no sign of any human anywhere?" is, basically, a window open in every room upstairs, would suggest that these are bedrooms, being aired in the morning, with inhabitants in the dining room for breakfast.
Regards
Malky
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There is dog on the path . And one of the enlargements I can see shadows of faces in the
Window of the tower.
Right lets regroup on this one.
Tell me whether you agree or disagree with my thoughts.
Not a family home, suggesting convalescent home, nursing home, sanatorium, WW1 hospital etc.
The tower suggesting there is something worth looking at, sea view/harbour being the obvious thought.
Trees in the background. Appear to be leaning to the right suggesting the prevailing wind is coming from the left ie. south west.
The alternative to that is that it was blowing a gale when the photo was taken.
Pine trees, could be many coastal locations in England, Scotland or Wales.
The large amount of open windows in the photo again bringing me back to something like a sanatorium.
The green house/conservatory/orangery, they were built originally to house ornamental plants or tender fruit etc. does this suggest it was originally a family home that had been converted to something else? I don't know if the style of that could help with date. Or again was it built as some form of rehabilitation for the patients.
Lawn appears to be covered in daisies, so not close mown again suggesting some kind of institution etc.
Why no sign of any human anywhere? Odd.
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I offer the following comments, having searched maps, Google Earth and some reports which mention Vron Yw/Fron Yw house.
Mr George Behrens and his family did live there.
From this report:
http://www.cpat.org.uk/projects/longer/histland/clwyd/1048.htm giving sources dated 1986.
Vron Yw is a large house, now a nursing home, rebuilt in 1906 but with building inscriptions of 1655 of an earlier house, approached by a long drive and set in parkland with mature oak, beech, chestnut and plane trees, with fenced land of parkland character below the house.
In 1914, Mr Behrens - along with many other local people - voiced his objections to the proposed building of the sanatorium. There was concern that the patients would be free to wander the public footpaths, many of which crossed Mr Behrens' estate.
Mr Behrens was High Sheriff of Denbigh in 1917. He died in 1931, still apparently owner of Vron Yw.
So what date is the mystery photo?
There is no indication that the house of Vron Yw has undergone a further rebuild since 1906. The reports say that the rebuilt house (dated 1906) is now used as a nursing home. Most of us seem to think that the photo was taken later than 1906. The nursing home closed only within the last five years.
Scouseboy - I'm really sorry, but I can't make these facts fit your hypothesis.
Nell
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" And one of the enlargements I can see shadows of faces in the Window of the tower."
Regards
Malky
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Thank you Nell, that is helpful
I know the people locally to gather further details from. Leave it with me for a day or two please?
It is pity that my relative no longer lives at the nursing home, because there is an old map inside the house.
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" And one of the enlargements I can see shadows of faces in the Window of the tower."
Regards
Malky
That's where they put the difficult patients ;D
More seriously I agree with jaywit's points.
The lean of the trees certainly suggests a strong prevailing wind from southwest if we are as we think on the south coast of England. The cowls on the chimneys, as I mentioned earlier, also suggest a windy location. The tree on left looks to be just coming in to leaf so only spring - not that that helps find it - although probably adds weight to the convalescent home or similar hypothesis due to all those windows being open in possibly cool weather. My thoughts on it being a much extended Victorian villa aren't terribly helpful either.
Sorry Scouse Boy I really can't see any likeness between it and the one picture I can find of Fron Yw - it really would have to be a total rebuild. :(
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Most of us seem to think that the photo was taken later than 1906.
Nell
I am even happy to suggest a date of 1930-1945 for the photo. I have no knowledge apart ( for me) the quality of the photo. ie pixellation etc
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The big problem is that there is nothing to help with dating it. I wonder if Caz can see any resemblance to the size paper etc. of anything we have found.
That might just help.
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The big problem is that there is nothing to help with dating it. I wonder if Caz can see any resemblance to the size paper etc. of anything we have found.
That might just help.
Yes it might.
There is also the bay window style - casement rather than sash, most likely 20's or 30's.
Actually the bays on the left hand building are very unusual in that there is no central mullion - seem to be known as French casements nowadays but can't find anything historical about them.
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Bearing in mind we don't know whether this is the front, or back of the property, this makes the task harder. It would however seem to be much bigger than it looks because of the additional buildings.
Have you seen this site
http://www.theirhistory.co.uk/70001/info.php?p=9
showing many photos of children's homes throughout the country. The aerial views are interesting to see the size of the homes. I had to keep stopping at some of the photos as many have similarities to ours. I suggest you pour yourself a cup of coffee before starting, it's a big thread.
One thing though, I doubt it's a children's home because of the tennis court, they are more into slides and seesaws.
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I would think that considering the glass house is in full view, this would be the back of the building, but I have been wrong before.
Regards
Mlaky
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Maybe this website could come in handy if anyone has time to go through it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/sets/72157639529185974/page5/?view=sq
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"Maybe this website could come in handy if anyone has time to go through it."
See post 137. Been there, done that from (page 1).
Regards
Malky
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Ok Thanks. It is coming to the stage where we are going round in circles ??? ???
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One of the residents of the house may have been a keen bird watcher or a keen astronomer, assuming that the tower had windows on all four sides then they could have had 360 degree visibility.
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Hi
Found two Hospitals/Sanitoriums on the Isle of White both with Crows Nest
http://islandhealthcare.co.uk/our-homes/northbrooke/
http://iowhospitals.org.uk/longford.php
Maybe the area to look into or maybe the architect.
claire
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I was also thinking Isle of Wight, Claire. There are quite a few hotels there that have terraces like that one.
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I like the pines and I like chimneys ... pity about the house ...
Arreton Manor, IOW
http://www.isle-of-wight-fhs.co.uk/gallery/ak/images/0002___the_manor__arreton__isle_of_wight.jpg
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No, I've been there, pretty sure it isn't Arreton.
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And I concur - not Arreton.
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=392615&mode=quick
Nell
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I showed the original photo to a colleague who is a fully qualified joiner or carpenter today, and he says it was added to over the years and incorporates several styles.
Assuming it was a remote house with a large staff including gardeners and cooks, there does not appear to be a driveway visible on this face of the building.
I don't think those two doors are the main entrance.
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Assuming it was a remote house with a large staff including gardeners and cooks, there does not appear to be a driveway visible on this face of the building.
I think we're looking at the back of the house, so the drive would be the other side.
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I thought that there was a drive along the top of the terrace.
Sometimes in these old photos the proportions are deceptive, and although it looks like the width of a walking path, it may actually be wider. Or maybe there is a drive above the small top terrace behind the seats? :-\
I don't think the other side of this building would have been the main entrance as there is the side of the house behind it, and not a grand enough entrance. However there may be another entrance on the left which is not visable.
I do wonder why someone would take a photo of the back or side of such a building though.
Further to my comment about depth of field and the illusion seen in some of these photos, I am wondering if the greenhouse is actually further back behind the house, but only appears to be on a similar level to the house. I also think the photo was taken not exactly in line with the front of the house, but from an angle, hence being able to see the greenhouse. If it had been taken directly in front of the stairs, the greenhouse may not have been visible.
I do agree that this house has been added to over the years, but they have tried to tie it all together style wise. I still find two entrance doors so close together odd ......
Still, those comments are no help in locating it. :(
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I still find two entrance doors so close together odd ......
That's what I find odd, almost as if it is two houses.
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Hi, just jumping in on this, I have had a quick look through the thread, do you not think (as groom says) that the picture shows 2 houses?, one set slightly back from the front one :-\
There seems to be a very narrow window in the "far" building which if it is all one building is "Neither use nor Ornament" I think that window carries on behind the front building and is part of a completely separate house
Frank.
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I still find two entrance doors so close together odd ......
That's what I find odd, almost as if it is two houses.
I wondered the same thing. But there does not seem to be any separation of property - fences etc which may point towards it being a posh 'semi'.
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Just looking over some of the closeups earlier in the thread, and I notice a pipe running up the front of the tower. I am wondering if this is a vent pipe for an indoor toilet? Once again no help in finding the house though ...
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Perhaps the second door is the servants/tradesmen entrance and leads to the kitchen.
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(just to get rid of the spam)
I saw this property on IOW and while I don't think it is, these may be the difficulties we face. And might help with the 2 entrance dilemma.
http://www.wightagents.co.uk/property/print.aspx?pics=true&id=10405 FAIR WARNING IT WILL ASK TO PRINT. JUST CANCEL
The East Wing can either be used as part of the main house (for which there are interconnecting doors) or as a self-contained cottage with its own parking area and courtyard garden to the rear. The current vendors have recently successfully let both the east wing and the main manor house for short-term holiday lets.
There have been many additions over the years and the fact it is mainly stone - while I believe property 12 is mainly wood- does tend to suggest it isn't the property we are looking for and I freely concede it isn't.
But also it comes with a potted history of the place to help decide
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There have been many additions over the years and the fact it is mainly stone - while I believe property 12 is mainly wood- does tend to suggest it isn't the property we are looking for and I freely concede it isn't.
But also it comes with a potted history of the place to help decide
I thought our house was brick and tile? Along the lines of these:
http://www.freepedia.co.uk/DIRHomesTileHungWalls.php
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I thought our house was brick and tile? Along the lines of these:
http://www.freepedia.co.uk/DIRHomesTileHungWalls.php
Probably right . Been a long weekend ;D
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;D
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I still find two entrance doors so close together odd ......
That's what I find odd, almost as if it is two houses.
Good observation.
The part on the left could be the Main house for the family, and the other part could be the servants quarters. Like "Upstairs Downstairs".
Can the design of the chimneys help date the property? Perhaps wood would be the main fuel?
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In 1894 the Building Act changed the law about flat windows, allowing bay windows of various forms.
Someone has commented on this earlier I think. Most of the windows in the photo have been modified from once being flat. But you can see half way down the right hand part there is still a flat window.
Could the reason this photo was taken be: To record how the House looked prior to the Re-modelling?
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The angle of the photo , and as discussed , the likelihood it is the rear view, makes for a great deal of speculation.
I agree many additions have been made to this building , but , I also feel it is no longer with us. I would think , apart from 1 or 2 changes , what you see here is near the final build.
*the above is purely speculation and further discoveries may make this post obsolete ;D
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Can I just clarify, is this a postcard or a photo taken by an individual? If the latter, and if it is a view of the rear of the house, it may be the only picture still in existence!
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This is a different sort of search from the churches and bridges, in some ways.
Do you remember that TV prog "Through the Keyhole"
"Who would live in a House like this?" Perhaps we also need to think of that question?
A very wealthy person, is my answer.
Maybe this house was bought on the marriage of someone? Maybe the above house had been the Bachelors house, and the new wife said "I am going to change this house into a Family House"
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I think that this was, at least, three buildings knocked into one. Looking at the chimney stacks and pots, there are differences in the design. (A) matches (A), (B) matches (B) and (B). There is a further high stack with pots behind the building. And, looking at the right hand extension, the materials used match that of the alteration left of the right hand door. (C) in both cases. In any case, it's a sod to find.
Regards
Malky
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I think that this was, at least, three buildings knocked into one. Looking at the chimney stacks and pots, there are differences in the design. (A) matches (A), (B) matches (B) and (B). There is a further high stack with pots behind the building. And, looking at the right hand extension, the materials used match that of the alteration left of the right hand door. (C) in both cases. In any case, it's a sod to find.
Regards
Malky
Or as I suggested earlier a 3 stage extension starting from the left hand building which I imagine was a Victorian villa with flat sash windows, one on side still remaining - again it does not the help find the b....y thing >:(
Jan ;)
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I looked at this last night. I know it isn't this house but the aerial view gives you some idea of how a house can be extended into the most obscure shape.
http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/36974778#JtL8PvL4rQhEGyZT.97
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Wow, that's a good price for all of that, including a sea view - I bet it goes for more. ;D
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Wow, that's a good price for all of that, including a sea view - I bet it goes for more. ;D
You can say that again! :o :o
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Of course it is just a wing of the house, but still very good value - where's my cheque book? ;D ;D
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Hi All,
After weeks of fruitless searching for photos or descriptions of this house, I’ve tried a different tack - going back to the Clifton Browns/Hanburys, and trying to find some connection with hospitals or homes.
I came across this in the Bucks Herald, May 1902.
Then, of course, I couldn’t find a picture of “Fair View”.
When searching, I did find an Upton House in Slough, which was apparently next door to Fair View.
Checked the 1911 census, and yes, they are separate establishments.
For anyone who wants to look, the reference is RG14; Piece: 7847; Schedule Number: 52
Interestingly, there is another family living at Fairview Stables - who knows, perhaps the building behind the house …
Then looked on Google and Bing maps, and guess what …. Upton House is still there, but not Fair View. Grrrr!
I really don’t know how to take this any further.
Yorkslass
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There is an image of Upton House here.
http://www.sloughhistoryonline.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=slough&f=generic_fullsizeprint_fr.htm&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=slough&text=upton%20road&s=bSzx__LgM2G
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Yes, I've seen several pictures of Upton House - but it's "Fair View" that I wanted to know more about - Upton House's next door neighbour.
Yorkslass
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If that is right it was also called Paddington Green Children's Hospital Convalescent Home. That would fit with all the open windows wouldn't it?
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Reading this, I think that Paddington Green C. H was a different entity http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/paddingtongreen.html
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Yes, but it does say further down the page that a Convalescent Home opened at Fair View, Upton Road, Slough, in 1901.
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Just anoying that there don't seem to be any photos of that.
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This may clarify the situation. You need to read the text on the right hand side down to, and including the paragraph which starts "Upton Court was rented -"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01flx/
Regards
Malky
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Look what was built instead of Fair View........
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.503635,-0.5854,3a,75y,77.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svf9RPDDNpDaS1xDb3qqbaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Yes it is very elegant, Spidermonkey :D
Can't find any photographs of the mysterious Fair View :(
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This may clarify the situation. You need to read the text on the right hand side down to, and including the paragraph which starts "Upton Court was rented -"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01flx/
Regards
Malky
That seems to say that Fair View was in Albert St - no large houses there now though
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This is all very bewildering. I found an article referring to Upton House in 1909 being a school. It goes on to say
The caption on the photograph also refers to the school adjoining the Paddington Green Children's Hospital Convalescent Home. The Convalescent Home was apparently established for the patients who had passed through the Children's Hospital at Paddington Green, London. It held 24 children and was free to children of the poor 'without letter of recommendation'. The Home was located in a house called Fair View.
Pat
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I have spent the afternoon virtually touring hotels and care homes in the south of England. Husband is starting to get a little worried..........
I saw a teeny photo of Clare House, Uxbridge and got excited but it didn't stand up to closer inspection. ::) (http://www.bupa.co.uk/care-services/care-homes/clare-house-nursing-home-uxbridge )
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Can anyone see another view of Limpsfield Convalescent Hospital - it has tower, tile hung and brickwork but not the right view.......http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Limpsfield-Caxton-Convalescent-Home-South-Front-/351170319327?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51c361d3df
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http://www.francisfrith.com/limpsfield/limpsfield-caxton-convalescent-home-1965_l48063
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2713490
Regards
Malky
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Gah!!! I got so hopeful too.
Onwards and upwards!
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I don't think the topography would work for it to be Fair View near Upton House. Nice try though ;)
Nell
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I don't think the topography would work for it to be Fair View near Upton House. Nice try though ;)
Nell
I was just thinking something very similar Nell.
Remember the trees when you are looking, they do suggest a coastal location.
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OR a location up to about ten miles inland, but an exposed location?
I will be off to the records office or speaking to more people tomorrow or this week anyway.
Note to Cazza: have you any more photos which could possibly be other views of this house, please?
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I'm wondering if any clues might be teased out of the locations already discovered. I have no idea if the whole batch are related to each other in any way, but it might be worth considering.
There have been several of Great Yarmouth and Cromer. Then there seems to be some taken on a tour round the coast of the Highlands (Tain, Keiss Castle, Thurso, Brora, Bonar Bridge). There is the group associated with the Hanbury & Clifton Brown family in the Burnham area of Buckinghamshire, two or three in Cornwall, Hitchin is another place, and Canterbury with two or three.
But I think we need Cazza to let us know if there is anything in the context which might indicate a link. I have a ton of photos from my late m-i-l which I dare not remove from the order they arrived until I've got them all catalogued in some way. It's my only hope of giving them a definitive date. Mine are mostly people though.
Nell
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Little Nell,
Have you seen my Open Letter to Cazza elsewhere on the Handwriting Forum?
I asked her a similar question to yours in the previous post.
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It does have a coastal feel to it - I can imagine it being a hotel if it is still standing today.
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Yes. One of those converted Country mansion Hotels. I agree.
Three Michelin stars sort of place.
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Has anyone actually looked at the 1911 census I gave a link to?
Fair View and Upton House are next door to each other.
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I'm sorry but there is no further information I can give you other than what I have already posted. This photo is just one of a bundle. The only thing I can hazard a guess at, is that it was taken around 1908ish like some of the others based on the "type" of photo, ie tone and paper thickness. It is a unique physical size that matches none of the others.
Sorry!
Caz
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..you are definitely a tenacious bunch! Keep it up! Apart from wanting to know the outcome, it's incredibly entertaining! ;D ;D
Jeanne
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I look at this house and I ask myself, would it be historically significant and therefore preserved or listed? If it was damaged would they bother restoring it to it's original condition? To me, both answers are no, so I think there is every chance this house no longer exists and there may be no evidence of it on the net, simply because the photo I have is someone's happy snap of a place they maybe once owned, visited at some stage or convalesced there.
I wish I could offer more clues, but the fact is there are none except, as I said, the possibility this photo was taken around the same time as the Clifton Brown ones, with the exception that this one is postcard size (it's not a postcard though) and the Clifton Brown's are approx 3 x 3 square.
Perhaps it's time to throw in the towel. :-\
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..you are definitely a tenacious bunch! Keep it up! Apart from wanting to know the outcome, it's incredibly entertaining! ;D ;D
Jeanne
Oh I just read this! ;D ;D Somehow I don't think people will throw in the towel, but they have more patience than I could ever have!
And just to put everyone in a bigger head spin…it looks Canadian to me…some park ranger's lodge with a look out tower for forest fires…or maybe I watch too much TV! ;D ;D
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Actually scrap that, it's too "posh" to be some sort of government building.
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Every time I get a notification I open it, fingers crossed, only to have my hopes dashed! I'm coming to the conclusion that this could be the one and only photo of this place. I still think it is coastal, probably some sort of convalescent home at the time, but now, if it survives either a hotel or been converted into apartments.
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I look at this house and I ask myself, would it be historically significant and therefore preserved or listed?
I have also thought this and looked at grade 2 listed , but I haven't yet seen it.
Perhaps it's time to throw in the towel. :-\
NEVER
;D
Just you watch, this time next year I will drag this up and post a link ( I hope)
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So close ::)
Carol
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Aw Carol, my heart skipped a beat then…
Are you sure it's not it..minus tower?
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So did mine...I thought it might be the rear view...but not sure.
Carol
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Too square on?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Brailsford_Hall_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1568568.jpg)
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Getting warmer...but I'm sure dgibbins...you will correct me if I'm wrong :P ;D ;D:
http://www.passmoreedwards.org.uk/pages/history/Hospitals/Herne%20Bay%201.htm
Carol
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Close but not close enough!
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Really close Carol, trouble is if Cazza's photo is the back something like
this could be the front...but how to know :-\
Joy
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Getting warmer...but I'm sure dgibbins...you will correct me if I'm wrong :P ;D ;D:
http://www.passmoreedwards.org.uk/pages/history/Hospitals/Herne%20Bay%201.htm
Carol
I did look at this one once. I think this was what put me onto Railway Convalescent and other trade buildings.
I would like to see the back - this would be a front view - gate etc.
I wont say you are wrong Carol- others have done that for me ;D ;D
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I think the new one pictured has too many chimney pots in each stack compared to the original picture.
But I definitely think Cazza's picture is a back view.
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Page 4, rear view, 3 stories high.
Regards
Malky
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This plan might give us an idea what the other side could look like
http://www.passmoreedwards.org.uk/pages/Hospitals/Herne%20Bay%20(Friendly%20Soc).htm
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Hi All,
After weeks of fruitless searching for photos or descriptions of this house, I’ve tried a different tack - going back to the Clifton Browns/Hanburys, and trying to find some connection with hospitals or homes.
Yorkslass
Are you searching your online collection of Hanbury/Clifton-Brown books?
I seem to remember you utilised them on the earlier WAIs
( I am now putting Fair View into some of my searching)
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If we find a photo of the front of the house, there are going to be buildings on the left of the photo as we look at it. Do those buildings belong to this house or are they next door?
I was looking at houses with a boat house as somebody suggested and I ended up having a virtual tour of Sandbanks the spit of land near Brownsea Island off the Dorset coast. There are houses on there with viewing towers and boat houses, but I couldn't find ours. The main point is though that hardly any original houses are left in this millionaires playground. As soon as a house comes up for sale it is demolished and a modern glass building replaces it. Such a shame and maybe this could have happened to our house. The few photos of the original houses that I can find seem to be of a similar style, but they are general views and hard to pick out individual houses.
Pat
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If we find a photo of the front of the house, there are going to be buildings on the left of the photo as we look at it. Do those buildings belong to this house or are they next door?
Pat
The roofs and building materials are different so I think the houses are next door. :)
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If we find a photo of the front of the house, there are going to be buildings on the left of the photo as we look at it. Do those buildings belong to this house or are they next door?
I was looking at houses with a boat house as somebody suggested and I ended up having a virtual tour of Sandbanks the spit of land near Brownsea Island off the Dorset coast. There are houses on there with viewing towers and boat houses, but I couldn't find ours. The main point is though that hardly any original houses are left in this millionaires playground. As soon as a house comes up for sale it is demolished and a modern glass building replaces it. Such a shame and maybe this could have happened to our house. The few photos of the original houses that I can find seem to be of a similar style, but they are general views and hard to pick out individual houses.
Pat
I've looked at Sandbanks but like you say houses there have been demolished at a rate of knots.
I looked all round Poole Harbour as far as Swanage as well but up to now I haven't found anything to match.
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I see this photo has now made it to the RC Facebook page, who knows perhaps someone there will recognise it. ;D
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Yes, probably the current owner. >:( >:( >:(
Regards
Malky
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Yes, probably the current owner. >:( >:( >:(
Regards
Malky
I hope not, after all the hard work all the contributors to this thread have put in! :(
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You are not going to believe this, but I saw the Next door neighbour to what I believe to be this house going for his lunch in Morrisons just now.
I am still working on getting my "proof"
Let me recap on my thoughts? Wealthy owner. Possibly a Lawyer or business man. Perhaps connected to the cotton trade.
Possible Land owner.
Date of photo circa 1900 to 1906
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I suggest this as our searchers theme song.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjHwMiLSiqA
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Wealthy owner. Possibly a Lawyer or business man. Perhaps connected to the cotton trade.
Why? :-\
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Because I think there is a connection with Manchester, And Manchester was at the centre of Industrialisation and Factories. And that "could" be the source of his wealth to be able to afford to live in such a large house.
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Let me recap on my thoughts? Wealthy owner. Possibly a Lawyer or business man. Perhaps connected to the cotton trade.
Possible Land owner.
Date of photo circa 1900 to 1906
Do you also still think that it is Vron/Fron Yw?
If so, then the colour photo of the nursing home is how the the house was rebuilt in 1906, replacing a previous mid 17th century house ( please see reply no 191 on page 22 ) and there has been no major changes since then. That is the important thing to keep in mind.
The mystery house depicted in the photo is not older than late 19th or early 20th century. I don't understand how it can be the predecessor (of 17th century date) to the nursing home incarnation of Vron Yw.
Nell
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Nell, A relative of mine was a resident of the Nursing home at Fron Yw for several years. My family and I visited regularly, and went for walks around the area. The lawn in the foreground is a large square, perhaps 60 metres by 120 metres as an estimate. Surrounded by tall old native trees which are probably more than 150 years old. I believe that I have been down those steps and seen the grassy bank. Secondly, I have been inside Fron Yw, and have reason to believe that there have been houses on that site for more than 150 years.
Because, for one thing there were items in the home which indicate that fact.
I am researching for the proof which people require.
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Unfortunately that style of steps and the area in front is quite common, I've been to a couple of places that are similar.
I'm not sure how the fact there has been a house there for over 150 years helps to prove it is where you think it is. We need a photo of Fron Yeah from the same angle. ;D
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I wrote to Matthew Becket at "lostheritage" and he suggests the following,
"I would suggest from the style of it that it may be from the Surrey/Sussex area - possibly a location that has views, either coastal or inland but up a hill or perhaps somewhere like the Sussex Downs."
Cazza, he also suggests posting the photograph in the following web site :-
https://www.flickr.com/groups/whathouseisthis/
Regards
Malky
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That's interesting Malky. It confirms what many of us have thought about the location of this house.
(Great flickr site too.) :)
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Thanks for that Malky, shame he couldn't suggest what use it had ;)
That site is very interesting :)
Joy
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I'm not sure how the fact there has been a house there for over 150 years helps to prove it is where you think it is. We need a photo of Fron Yeah from the same angle.
Sorry just noticed that - stupid predictive text on iPad! ;D
Surrey/Sussex sounds good to me.
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Sussex yes. A lot of houses on the Slaugham Archive site look very very similar. Same material etc. I believe the picture Carol posted Brailsford is on the Slaugham site. This site was used for the Nix photos - who are connected to the Clifton Browns
I have spent 1 or 2 anxious moments looking at (now) Hoadland Cottages. 3 cottages side by side connected, which looks as if it has come from a larger property.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-48177145.html
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I'm afraid that this house design used to be relatively popular for the well off, and came under Victorian Tudor revival. I don't know how far back they went, 1890, 1880? Apparently, they could be found in the Colonies and in North America. I saw an image of one in North Carolina built in the early 1920's. Another in Ireland as of now.
I think it was built as a family home but in this photo, as suggested, it has been put to another use. The odd thing is the building behind the glass house. Actually, I think there are two, but the big building at the back looks new and doesn't look like a house.
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I wrote to Matthew Becket at "lostheritage" and he suggests the following,
"I would suggest from the style of it that it may be from the Surrey/Sussex area - possibly a location that has views, either coastal or inland but up a hill or perhaps somewhere like the Sussex Downs."
Cazza, he also suggests posting the photograph in the following web site :-
https://www.flickr.com/groups/whathouseisthis/
Regards
Malky
Wow, talk about going above and beyond Malky! :o :o Thanks for doing that!
I think maybe Rootschatters could probably lend a hand on that site! ;D ;D ;D
Sussex…who fancies google earthing every square inch... ;D ;D ;D
Actually I wonder if the moderator of the Sussex board has any ideas of pictorial archives that may help?
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I'm afraid that this house design used to be relatively popular for the well off, and came under Victorian Tudor revival. I don't know how far back they went, 1890, 1880? Apparently, they could be found in the Colonies and in North America. I saw an image of one in North Carolina built in the early 1920's. Another in Ireland as of now.
I think it was built as a family home but in this photo, as suggested, it has been put to another use. The odd thing is the building behind the glass house. Actually, I think there are two, but the big building at the back looks new and doesn't look like a house.
If they are new buildings at the back, then you would assume they were added to cater for the new use of the home, if indeed, it was no longer used as a family residence.
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I have been through the following site. Nothing is standing out unfortunately.
http://www.goldonian.org/photos/photo_archive_homes/old_homes_eng.htm
One that stood out for me, not the house, you cannot see it, but it's the name and the children.
http://www.goldonian.org/photos/photo_archive_homes/pages/hope_place.htm
Regards
Malky
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I have been through the following site. Nothing is standing out unfortunately.
http://www.goldonian.org/photos/photo_archive_homes/old_homes_eng.htm
One that stood out for me, not the house, you cannot see it, but it's the name and the children.
http://www.goldonian.org/photos/photo_archive_homes/pages/hope_place.htm
Regards
Malky
What great sites, shall be bookmarking both of them!
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... The odd thing is the building behind the glass house. Actually, I think there are two, but the big building at the back looks new and doesn't look like a house.
I thought them odd too. I think there are two buildings behind the glass house. One has the skylights and the other is the taller building with the oddly pitched roof. Hard to judge their ages from the little bit of them that is visible. I don't think that the larger one is new though, and I reckon it's a house. ;)
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... The odd thing is the building behind the glass house. Actually, I think there are two, but the big building at the back looks new and doesn't look like a house.
I thought them odd too. I think there are two buildings behind the glass house. One has the skylights and the other is the taller building with the oddly pitched roof. Hard to judge their ages from the little bit of them that is visible. I don't think that the larger one is new though, and I reckon it's a house. ;)
I think the larger building with the shallow pitched half hipped roof is the newest part of this much extended building, perhaps added for staff accommodation or suchlike. It looks rather utilitarian compared with the rest of the house, making it even more likely the use by the time the photo was taken wasn't as a family home.
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The additional buildings remind me very much of the added Opera house to Glyndbourne. It isn't the right building unfortunately, but may be something similar
Pat
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I think they may be stables and Carriage house with accommodation for Grooms and other staff. Or Agricultural buildings?
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Well, after Malky's post I've been looking through Surrey/Sussex and Sussex Downs
but nothing so far :( Perhaps it's no longer there or has been altered beyond
recognition :-\
Joy
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I cannot recall if anyone has referred to the "Venetian" blinds in some windows?
What year were blinds like that introduced to the UK?
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I cannot recall if anyone has referred to the "Venetian" blinds in some windows?
Yes - back in April, reply 49. Haven't discovered the answer as to when they were either invented or introduced here yet.
Nell
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Good evening,
Hoadlands cottages were workers housing for the Hyde estate owned by Colonel Warren. They are mostly semi's in 2 rows (one each side of the new A23). There are 2 larger houses for the estate manager etc of which this is one. Always been a single dwelling and a couple of hundred yards from my meagre dwelling.
I will have a look around the area, I will be most put out if no 12 turns out to be on my doorstep and I didn't know it.
John915
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Venetian blinds from Google - been around a good while!
Related patents were taken out in England by Gowin Knight in 1760 and Edward Beran on 11 December 1769, but Venetian blinds were known to the French long before then. In 1761, St. Peter's Church, Philadelphia had such blinds.
Jeanne
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Oooooh, close!
But not close enough :(
http://www.primelocation.com/for-sale/details/37331688#qjFk4ZdmLqixZSLe.97
Yorkslass
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:o Who was the architect. Bloody steps are on the wrong side ;D
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Certainly very close Yorkslass ;)
Joy
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Only problem is the bay windows are original.
Regards
Malky
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The tower may have been built to accommodate a large water tank?
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Oooooh, close!
But not close enough :(
http://www.primelocation.com/for-sale/details/37331688#qjFk4ZdmLqixZSLe.97
Yorkslass
Wow…only just seen this post Yorkslass (I can't keep up)…so close! :( :(
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Can't believe this post wills soon hit 9000 views! :o :o
Think we might have to file this one along with "Did they really land on the moon?", "Who really shot JFK?" , "Is Elvis still alive?" and "What is the Bermuda Triangle"!!!
;D
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What about..."How big is the black hole"? because I think this one fell in it ::) ;D ;D ;D ;
Carol
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I think the problem is that there are so many similar houses, most now turned into hotels. This might be the only photo in existence of this house!
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I believe that it was demolished in 1906
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I believe that it was demolished in 1906
How do you know that if we don't know where it is?
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Looking at this photo and the benches in the garden, makes me think it's already a residential home/ a convalescent home at the time of this pcture. Will start trawling the web and see what I can find
Trish
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I believe that it was demolished in 1906
That's very precise. Is there something you're not telling us?
Such as ..... WHERE IT IS? ??? :'(
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I think it's more likely to have been built in 1906 ::)
I keep putting different combinations into search and this one keeps popping up http://www.walkingthedogs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/goddards.jpg
This one was built for the Terry [chocolates] family in York. I know it's not the one, but the architect has done some similar house styles. He is Walter Brierley. known as the Lutyens from the north. He also designed quite a few schools.
Pat
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I think it's more likely to have been built in 1906 ::)
My thoughts too. At one stage I thought it might have been 1930s but doubt that now.
(I think Scouseboy is having a lend of us. ;) ;D)
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I believe that it was demolished in 1906
Maybe towards the back end of August. On a Sunday afternoon, perhaps 4.15ish?
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There are a couple of ''oh so closes'' with this one.
For all the points I mentioned on the other thread . There HAS to be another digital footprint. Even if it has been altered in some way, the shell , the core should still be there. If not it will be in a book somewhere , online or not. I will never give up!!!
;D
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I haven't either dg, for all the good it's done me...so onwards and upwards ;) ;D
Joy
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I believe that it was demolished in 1906
Maybe towards the back end of August. On a Sunday afternoon, perhaps 4.15ish?
I think you might find that it was actually the end of April - the 28th to be precise. But you are spot on with Sunday at 4:15. ;D
Just having a joke Scouseboy. ;) ;D
Can you please let us know what leads you to the conclusion that the house was demolished in 1906? If you know something that we don't please put us out of our misery.
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You know I'm sure I can hear Yorkslass beavering away in the background and one day she's going to knock us for six and find No. 12 like she did with the building in India….no pressure mind! ;D ;D
Sadly as much as I don't want to think this is the case, I think that perhaps Tower, Tudor, Quirky and Thatched (good name for a solicitor's firm ;D ;D) are now but a distant memory.
Of course there is still a church and a bridge hiding out there as well. ::) ::)
Caz
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If you refer back about three weeks on this thread, I thought that it was Fron Yw at Llangwyfan, near Denbigh in North Wales.
I spent many hours in my library and the County Archives and Records Office searching for proof.
The location of the grass slope relative to the NEW Fron Yw makes me more than 70% certain.
My next step is To go and ask The Community Archive Group if they have any old photos.
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Fron Yw at Llangwyfan
No, I don't think so.
(just because there may be a similar grass slope it does not automatically mean that the house is the same :-\)
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Other factors in addition lead me to my belief. I have visited the new build Fron Yw because my relative lived there. And objects inside the house indicate that the site has been in use for a long time before 1906.
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.... objects inside the house indicate that the site has been in use for a long time before 1906.
You have me intrigued now. :)
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Hmm is this number 12 after being through the cold rinse?
http://www.francisfrith.com/us/ilkley/ilkley-hollybrook-guest-house-c1955_i6017
;D ;D
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Demolished in 1980 - you'd have thought they would have known better by then. :'(
Tower - check (sort of)
gables - check (sort of)
other features - um, maybe not
;)
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There must have been a fashion for towers at one time.
The daily mail Saturday supplement 1860 must have had a feature on towers, I guess?
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How soon will it be. Before. This thread has 10,000 hits?
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Hmm is this number 12 after being through the cold rinse?
http://www.francisfrith.com/us/ilkley/ilkley-hollybrook-guest-house-c1955_i6017
;D ;D
Even more ;D ;D
Interested to see this one as I grew up less than a mile from there. However, I moved away before it was demolished, and I don't actually remember it anyway.
There must have been a fashion for towers at one time.
The thing about towers like that (which I gather are also called belvederes or lookouts) is that they were intended for looking out of. The Ilkley house was right on the edge of Ilkley Moor and would have had a superb view over it to three sides, and in the other direction a wide view over the town and Wharfedale to the hills beyond. It is said that York Minster, 35 miles away, can be seen from Ilkley Moor, though possibly not from every point on the moor. The other thing about this one is that you can admire the view in safety while not wearing a hat ;D
Anyway, I'd been wondering whether WAI No.12 might be somewhere similarly elevated or coastal, where there were good views. It wouldn't surprise me if it was somewhere like Ashdown Forest, near where I also once lived. (And Tudor House No.19 might not be out of place there too.) Maybe an expotition is called for.
Arthur
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How soon will it be. Before. This thread has 10,000 hits?
Wow, 656 hits in 3 days….hope that means there are another 656 pairs of eyes out there looking… ;D ;D ;D
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How soon will it be. Before. This thread has 10,000 hits?
Wow, 656 hits in 3 days….hope that means there are another 656 pairs of eyes out there looking… ;D ;D ;D
It could just be that, like me, everytime they get notification of a post, they rush over to see if it's been solved. ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D...Count me in on that too Jan ;D
Carol
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And me.
Click! Another view.
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And another one :D
I think it may well be in Surrey/Kent where there seem to have been a huge number of large properties, with and without towers, many now seem to have been demolished. One small area in Chislehurst had several all gone remembered only by road names and not it seems always recorded on photos, at least none that made it to the internet. Sadly I think number 12 may be no longer or if it is it will have continued to be altered and may be unrecognisable.
Jan
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Hmm is this number 12 after being through the cold rinse?
http://www.francisfrith.com/us/ilkley/ilkley-hollybrook-guest-house-c1955_i6017
;D ;D
Even more ;D ;D
Interested to see this one as I grew up less than a mile from there. However, I moved away before it was demolished, and I don't actually remember it anyway.
There must have been a fashion for towers at one time.
The thing about towers like that (which I gather are also called belvederes or lookouts) is that they were intended for looking out of. The Ilkley house was right on the edge of Ilkley Moor and would have had a superb view over it to three sides, and in the other direction a wide view over the town and Wharfedale to the hills beyond. It is said that York Minster, 35 miles away, can be seen from Ilkley Moor, though possibly not from every point on the moor. The other thing about this one is that you can admire the view in safety while not wearing a hat ;D
Anyway, I'd been wondering whether WAI No.12 might be somewhere similarly elevated or coastal, where there were good views. It wouldn't surprise me if it was somewhere like Ashdown Forest, near where I also once lived. (And Tudor House No.19 might not be out of place there too.) Maybe an expotition is called for.
Arthur
Excellent logic. Excellent deductions. I think that when proof is found that you will be on the money with your theory.
We would all have been a good team on photographic interpretation with the RAF during WW2 don't you think?
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It wouldn't surprise me if it was somewhere like Ashdown Forest,
I'm going across there tomorrow - I'll keep my eyes open!
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Rather enjoying looking through property in Ashdown Forest and seeing houses that I'm never going to be able to afford!! (Anyone got a spare £3million or so available for this 1930s beaut?)
http://moneyweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/748-High-Meadows.jpg
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9995 hits. Nearly there
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Is this a record? 10,000 hits.
;D
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Considering that we are not finding this house, and thus there is a possibility that it has been demolished/completely revamped, I thought I would flag up this website which seeks to document buildings prior to demolition:
http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/residential-sites/27352-steep-park-house-potters-manor-final-goodbye-2013-crowborough.html#.Vbj4dvlVikp
For those who are interested, the following link shows the house above after it was demolished and subsequently rebuilt.
http://www.countrylife.co.uk/news/property-news/highwell-house-the-ultimate-renovation-in-east-sussex-73118
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Considering that we are not finding this house, and thus there is a possibility that it has been demolished/completely revamped, I thought I would flag up this website which seeks to document buildings prior to demolition:
http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/residential-sites/27352-steep-park-house-potters-manor-final-goodbye-2013-crowborough.html#.Vbj4dvlVikp
For those who are interested, the following link shows the house above after it was demolished and subsequently rebuilt.
http://www.countrylife.co.uk/news/property-news/highwell-house-the-ultimate-renovation-in-east-sussex-73118
My local knowledge and research indicates to me that the house in the photo at the top of this thread WAS demolished OR "re-built in 1906. Maybe this photo was taken prior to re-building
work commenced?
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Hello,
Sorry, although ruined Steep Park House and beautifully renovated Highwell House, Crowborough, East Sussex are certainly one and the same house, nothing will ever convince me that is the house in Cazza's photograph.
Similar layout but not the same. :'( :'(
Regards, Dod.
Added. My apologies Spidermonkey. Glad such a lovely house has been restored. Have a look here.
http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/tnw150069
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Hello,
Sorry, although ruined Steep Park House and beautifully renovated Highwell House, Crowborough, East Sussex are certainly one and the same house, nothing will ever convince me that is the house in Cazza's photograph.
Similar layout but not the same. :'( :'(
Regards, Dod.
Sorry, my intention was not to suggest that Highwell House was 'our' house, but to flag up a source of photos of houses that had fallen into disrepair and so may not come up on conventional sources. The 'after' photo of Highwell House was just to demonstrate what had happened to the house that I used as an example (it's a family history habit - I have to hatch, match and dispatch everything, rather than just give half a story!!)
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My local knowledge and research indicates to me that the house in the photo at the top of this thread WAS demolished OR "re-built in 1906. Maybe this photo was taken prior to re-building
work commenced?
Still this? I can't make my mind up whether you're being serious or having a laugh.
1. Do you honestly think this photo was taken before 1906? I don't.
2. Even if it was, and this house was there before the current house, there is nothing about the background or foreground that gives ANY indication that it is the same site.
It is not the same place.
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I'm sorry ScouseBoy, but I remain unconvinced of your belief.
I realise that I am potentially guilty of a similar conviction in my own beliefs when I repeat what I said in reply 191 (on p 22)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=717629.msg5688971#msg5688971
and reply 285 on p 32
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=717629.msg5690939#msg5690939
the house that you believe this to be was demolished in 1906 and rebuilt to give the building seen here:
http://www.northwalescare.org.uk/caresearch/pages/1896/nursing_homes_in_denbigh
The previous building was 17th century in origin. Since Cazza's photo does not resemble the current building, you seem to imply that it must be the previous incarnation. Sorry, but no way is Cazza's photo of a building dating from the 17th century.
The trees surrounding the current house - and shown on older maps, which can be a useful source of extra information - do not match what can be seen on Cazza's photo and there are hundreds of buildings/houses built on a rise above a 'sunken' area of flat ground with steps down to it. I can think of two properties in the home counties owned by members of my wider family where this is the case. In fact the High Meadows property link posted by Spidermonkey shows a similar feature.
:( :(
Nell
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there are hundreds of buildings/houses built on a rise above a 'sunken' area of flat ground with steps down to it.
I agree, Nell. It is a very common style and I've stayed in a few hotels with grounds like that. So I fail to see how Scouse boy can be basing his evidence on that.
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Good evening,
I also have to agree with Nell and Groom over ScouseBoys claim. I would also query all the assumptions made that it has to be some form of institution. Just because it has a couple of benches in the garden.
I have 2 benches in my garden but that doesn't make it an institution or school or hotel.
Windblown trees doesn't have to make it a coastal location. Just anywhere on higher ground with stronger prevailing winds and no apparent higher ground behind.
Location wise I don't think it's South Downs. Whilst I can't claim to know every square inch of them, I think a remote clump of Scots pines would stand out in my memory. Certainly not along the top at least. It is though in my opinion rural and perhaps alone.
The Weald, including Ashdown Forest, the Vale of Sussex, Vale of Kent, Surrey Hills are all good contestants for the location. But could also be North Hampshire, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire to name a few.
Why would someone have a house built, I still believe this is one house and always has been although extended and altered, with an observation tower? It doesn't look like your typical farmhouse so not to look over their prize cattle or whatever.
But what about the racehorse owner/trainer? somewhere to watch out over the gallops. Have checked out parts of the Lambourne area (West Berks).
Maybe just a particularly good view over spectacular countryside.
Because we can't find it on-line doesn't mean it's been demolished, just that we havn't come across it yet or nobody has ever put pictures of it up on-line yet.
If you look at a great many big houses or mansions the "Front Door" is where the drive is. But the "Front" of the house looks out over the gardens or parkland. So I think we are looking at the front of the house and the front door is on the other side as is the approach to the house from the road. Having two or more doors doesn't make it more than one house, just that they wanted to be able to access the gardens from different parts of the house. The one on the left from a main reception room and the other from the main hallway.
Enough of my rambling, just some thoughts but don't give up till the fat lady sings as they say.
John915
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Is this a record? 10,000 hits.
;D
No I'm afraid not. Far from it.
I know there are dozens and dozens of other cases but the first that came to my mind (obviously) were my 2010 Nathaniel Bryceson threads. This discussion covered more than 9 threads and some examples of hits on those threads are: over 26,800 - 22,700 - 24,990 etc etc. Just to give you a rough idea .... :)
Not that number of hits is of any significance and not that it is a competition of any sort ....
To get back on topic. I am with the others who strongly disagree that this house bears any resemblance to your Welsh nursing home. For some reason you seem to be trying to make it fit. I don't understand why you would do that, especially when you are so wrong.
You said you are still looking for 'proof'. Have you managed to find that yet? And I would like to know about the mysterious objects inside the nursing home which lead you to believe that it was once Caz's mystery house.
John915 - I think you make some valid points. :)
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there are hundreds of buildings/houses built on a rise above a 'sunken' area of flat ground with steps down to it.
I agree, Nell. It is a very common style and I've stayed in a few hotels with grounds like that. So I fail to see how Scouse boy can be basing his evidence on that.
No groom not just that ... it's the slope as well as objects inside the house apparently ... ::)
Other factors in addition lead me to my belief. I have visited the new build Fron Yw because my relative lived there. And objects inside the house indicate that the site has been in use for a long time before 1906.
Perhaps the site of Fron Yw has been in use for a long time before 1906 (the magical date of 1906 is an invention of Scouseboys) - but this is NOT Caz's house!!!!
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The tower could simply have been built as a "retreat" or private sanctuary where you could escape to read, knit or whatever, particularly if there was a view to be enjoyed as well.
Having said that, I think it's a hunting lodge. ;D
Caz
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"I think it's a hunting lodge"
Aye, an how long have we been "hunting" for it now ??? ??? ???
Too b&*^%y long :o :o :o
Regards
Malky
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"I think it's a hunting lodge"
Aye, an how long have we been "hunting" for it now ??? ??? ???
Too b&*^%y long :o :o :o
Regards
Malky
;D ;D ;D ;D
'Tis true! Perhaps you are right and it is time we threw in the towel! :)
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"time we threw in the "towel"!"
Towel, don't you mean "tower" ::) ::) ::)
Regards
Malky
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;D ;D ;D ;D
Towel, tower and the whole kit and caboodle! ;D ;D
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The tower top has been found on another building, that tower was apparently used for coast guard/ watch purposes. National archives hold a photo/postcard collection of coastguard buildings so although I'm not visiting Kew I'll be working my way through what's listed in the catalogue in terms of locations.
S_L
p.s. who knows, maybe it'll be in wales
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My local knowledge and research indicates to me that the house in the photo at the top of this thread WAS demolished OR "re-built in 1906.
I'm sure everyone is looking forward to reading a posting containing proof and documentary evidence of this :)
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Throw in the towel? Never!!!!! My competitive juices are flowing and once moving can never be stopped. ;D
Hunting Lodge - I have looked at Golf Courses as well
John915 I liked your post and you make valid relevant points , but , I am quite comfortable continuing to look for convalescent , Childrens Homes, Boarding Houses etc. I do accept that 2 benches does not make a home , but, there have been enough similarities between the set-up and other Nursing homes for me to continue.
Not that I exclusively look for these type of dwellings.
I do think you are right that it is a building of parts and times. And therein lies part of the reason why I still search the above, because buildings grow and uses change.
Again a nice balanced post which made me re-examine some of my assumptions. :)
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Do you think it could be part of a much bigger complex, like Weston Acre House. Surrey.
http://www.royalalfredseafarers.com/Images/AERIALnew.jpg
I don't think this is the one, just an example of what it could be like.
Pat
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Hi Rootschatters
I've read through the forty odd pages on this house but don't see any mention of the structure behind the house that also looks like a tower. I mean the the one beyond the ivy covered chimney and the roof-line behind it.
Maybe my eyes are playing tricks but it looks like a small square church tower with some fancy stone-work border along the top. It lies between two chimneys but to me it looks like a separate structure beyond.
Could the house be a re-purposed and extended rectory or vicarage?
Venelow
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Maybe my eyes are playing tricks but it looks like a small square church tower with some fancy stone-work border along the top. It lies between two chimneys but to me it looks like a separate structure beyond.
Could the house be a re-purposed and extended rectory or vicarage?
Venelow
I've been assuming it was another large chimney on part of the house that we can't see, but yes it could be a tower.
Yes could be a vicarage - I think it could be a re-purposed, extended and much altered large house of any kind :D
Do you think it could be part of a much bigger complex, like Weston Acre House. Surrey.
http://www.royalalfredseafarers.com/Images/AERIALnew.jpg
I don't think this is the one, just an example of what it could be like.
Pat
And yes it could well be much larger than it looks - there is that half-hipped building behind for instance
Jan ;)
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Do you think it could be part of a much bigger complex, like Weston Acre House. Surrey.
http://www.royalalfredseafarers.com/Images/AERIALnew.jpg
I don't think this is the one, just an example of what it could be like.
Pat
Yes. You are so right about the bigger complex. This is just one face of the whole.
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Yes. You are so right about the bigger complex. This is just one face of the whole.
So are you still saying you know this house? If so please post a photo so that we can solve it once and for all.
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Throw the towel in!!! :o :o :o That towel is staying exactly where it is, we are not throwing it anywhere ;D
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Jool I agree ;) Mind you No12 teeters from time to time on the edge of
my 'too hard basket' but haven't given up :)
Joy
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Maybe my eyes are playing tricks but it looks like a small square church tower with some fancy stone-work border along the top. It lies between two chimneys but to me it looks like a separate structure beyond.
Could the house be a re-purposed and extended rectory or vicarage?
Venelow
I've been assuming it was another large chimney on part of the house that we can't see, but yes it could be a tower.
Yes could be a vicarage - I think it could be a re-purposed, extended and much altered large house of any kind :D
Do you think it could be part of a much bigger complex, like Weston Acre House. Surrey.
http://www.royalalfredseafarers.com/Images/AERIALnew.jpg
I don't think this is the one, just an example of what it could be like.
Pat
And yes it could well be much larger than it looks - there is that half-hipped building behind for instance
Jan ;)
I believe that it was the large country house of a wealthy businessman. A country estate. I have a copy from an Ordnance Survey map circa 1874 of the area which I believe shows the "footprint" of the mansion. I will print it off tomorrow, and try to line it up to get an indication of that further building behind the chimneys
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Hey Scouseboy, I think it goes without saying that it was a large country house belonging to someone wealthy. ;) ;D
It's original purpose may have changed over the years but it would have started out as a house ...
Regarding the map. It may not be worth you printing it out. There are many Ordnance Survey maps online via the NLS. The side by side facility is very useful for comparing the 'then' and 'now'. I need to check coverage though .... :) The trouble is with viewing plans is that we don't know the layout/plan of Caz's house. There may be more buildings behind for example which we can't see ... or as many suggest, this may since have been extended or substantially altered.
Presumably the "mansion" you are referring to is that Welsh nursing home? ::)
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Hi Rootschatters
I've read through the forty odd pages on this house
Maybe my eyes are playing tricks but it looks like a small square church tower with some fancy stone-work border along the top. It lies between two chimneys but to me it looks like a separate structure beyond.
Could the house be a re-purposed and extended rectory or vicarage?
but don't see any mention of the structure behind the house that also looks like a tower. I mean the the one beyond the ivy covered chimney and the roof-line behind it.
Venelow
On Page 12 reply 106 you will see a closeup of this area and it appears to be chimneys. :)
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Here you go Scouseboy:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=53.1855&lon=-3.3162&layers=171&right=BingHyb
I am not sure if the location of your nursing home as suggested by Google is completely accurate, but you will see there is nothing on that site on this map. :-\
Added: I see google's suggested location was not accurate and I have discovered the entrance to the nursing home right beside the church. And yes, there is a structure on the site on the old map.
The layout of that house as it existed then and as it exists now does not bear any resemblance to Caz's house. (Image of nursing home was posted earlier by Jen I believe)
I'm giving this up now (I should have done so ages ago ::)). I feel like too much time has been spent trying to prove you wrong Scouseboy, when it would be better spent trying to find the true location of the house.
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What a brilliant site Ruskie - I've bookmarked that.
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What a brilliant site Ruskie - I've bookmarked that.
It's wonderful isn't it. I used to spend hours trying to compare old maps with current maps to find the location of some building, and the side by side feature has made that so much easier. You can use your cursor to outline a building or a street to see how much they have altered. I love it. :)
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I found the field my house was built on! I see you can also change the maps to see how it altered over the years. Guess what I'll be doing tomorrow! ;D ;D
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Looking for WAI 12 I hope. ;D
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Ruskie wrote:
On Page 12 reply 106 you will see a closeup of this area and it appears to be chimneys. :)
Thanks Ruskie. I don't know how I missed that page.
It still looks like a tower to me. It takes up space from just behind the right hand chimney to behind the ivy covered chimney and all the space in between down to the roof-line. That's a pretty wide chimney.
The pines suggest Norfolk to me. There are hundreds of derelict churches in Norfolk.
Venelow
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Here you go Scouseboy:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=53.1855&lon=-3.3162&layers=171&right=BingHyb
I am not sure if the location of your nursing home as suggested by Google is completely accurate, but you will see there is nothing on that site on this map. :-\
Added: I see google's suggested location was not accurate and I have discovered the entrance to the nursing home right beside the church. And yes, there is a structure on the site on the old map.
The layout of that house as it existed then and as it exists now does not bear any resemblance to Caz's house. (Image of nursing home was posted earlier by Jen I believe)
I'm giving this up now (I should have done so ages ago ::)). I feel like too much time has been spent trying to prove you wrong Scouseboy, when it would be better spent trying to find the true location of the house.
Thank you for that link. I had to move the position slightly to locate Fron Yw.
The drive up to Fron Yw starts adjacent to the Church, but the drive is perhaps 500 yards long, and leads to other properties as well.
I have got a photo with the caption "Rebuilding Vron Yw c.1906 to its present form"
It seems to me that one of the things they were changing is the main entrance to the house from the back to the front. They re-cycled some of the window frames from the old house to the new house. My photo shows about 24 men working on the site.
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Can we see that photo please? It is not Caz's bouse, but since we've got this far you might as well show us.
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It IS the same site but with a re-modelled house built in the same location. And Parts of the house in Cazzas photo just modified slightly.
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That's wonderful that you have a photograph. I hope it isn't just of a building site though, 'cos that won't help at all. :(
Are you able to scan it to show us all, please? :) Or if no scanner, can you take a digital photo of it and upload that? We'd all like to compare the images.
Nell
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I can't understand, Scouseboy, why, if you are so certain that it is the correct site, you seem unwilling to show us the photo? I also can't see why you are so sure that it is the correct site?
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Question of Copyright.
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Question of Copyright.
This really has to be a wind-up.
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Question of Copyright.
How old is the photo? Pretty sure copyright would have expired long ago unless it's a modern photo. Can you provide a link for us to view it online?
Seems a shame for people to keep spending time searching, if you are sure you have located the house. :-\
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I don't believe a photograph taken in 1906 can still be in copyright.
See http://www.dacs.org.uk/knowledge-base/factsheets/copyright-in-photographs
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Sorry Scouseboy but this is getting silly. You haven't given us a shred of hard evidence.
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It is in a book about Llangwyfan, which I read in my library. The photo is dated 1906.
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This is all irrelevant, as the house is clearly not Vron Yw, for the reasons that have been spelled out on the many threads which you have chosen to ignore but..
if you genuinely believe what you say, copy the picture and put it online to prove your point. As has also been pointed out, there are NO copyright issues.
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This is all irrelevant, as the house is clearly not Vron Yw, for the reasons that have been spelled out on the many threads which you have chosen to ignore but..
if you genuinely believe what you say, copy the picture and put it online to prove your point. As has also been pointed out, there are NO copyright issues.
Many of the features in the old house (Cazzas original photo), have been salvaged, and incorporated into the Re-built house. I think the middle section of the old house has largely remained the same as in the old house. If you measure the windows and door the scale and the dimensions appear to be identical. Other windows appear to be the same style..
The Pond and the grassy slope appear to be identical.
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This is all irrelevant, as the house is clearly not Vron Yw, for the reasons that have been spelled out on the many threads which you have chosen to ignore but..
if you genuinely believe what you say, copy the picture and put it online to prove your point. As has also been pointed out, there are NO copyright issues.
Many of the features in the old house (Cazzas original photo), have been salvaged, and incorporated into the Re-built house. I think the middle section of the old house has largely remained the same as in the old house. If you measure the windows and door the scale and the dimensions appear to be identical. Other windows appear to be the same style..
The Pond and the grassy slope appear to be identical.
Picture?
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Sorry Scouseboy but this is getting silly. You haven't given us a shred of hard evidence.
The evidence was given on page 16.
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There may be evidence, but no real proof, just your gut instinct.
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The Pond and the grassy slope appear to be identical.
Pond ? ::) :-X ::) :-X
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The Pond and the grassy slope appear to be identical.
Pond ? ::) :-X ::) :-X
I can't see a pond either.
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Sorry Scouseboy but this is getting silly. You haven't given us a shred of hard evidence.
The evidence was given on page 16.
I've looked carefully at page 16, and you made two postings; but I'm afraid I can't see what conclusive evidence they contained?
I suspect that those drawings never got further than just being a Plan, Because ww1 probably put a stop on those plans.
What I suspect happened that the hospital bought a private house for expediency, to use that as the Superintendents House. The Hospital was on a large site 540 acres I believe. The superintendents house was outside the hospital perimeter.
Thank you for finding that photo. You can see the points which are identical. The bank, the steps, The Ivy or creeper. It will be interesting to find out when the modifications and improvements were made.
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Have a look at reply 374.
You will have to scroll a little way from the link shown, but a few inches on the map you get to Fron Yw and you will see a long strip of the pond about ten yards from the house.
On Cazzas photo, just behind the park benches you can see a low wall. That is the wall which contains the pond.
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Have a look at reply 374.
You will have to scroll a little way from the link shown,
Here's the link ::)
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=53.1903&lon=-3.3174&layers=171&right=BingHyb
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Have a look at reply 374.
You will have to scroll a little way from the link shown,
Here's the link ::)
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=53.1903&lon=-3.3174&layers=171&right=BingHyb
Thanks Jen
I see no pond or even a retaining wall on Cazza's photo but that's irrelevant because the aerial photo itself shows that they are two completely different houses.
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I can't see a pond on the map either. Could someone who can see it, highlight it please?
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There is no pond indicated on the map.
I can see a pond on the aerial photo, but it is much further from the house than the pond which is supposedly on Cazza's photo.
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I can't see a pond on the map either. Could someone who can see it, highlight it please?
There isn't one.
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The pond is the narrow but long rectangle outlined by something white running alongside the grassy bank, and about ten yards from the house wall.
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The pond is the narrow but long rectangle outlined by something white running alongside the grassy bank, and about ten yards from the house wall.
That is on the aerial photo. There is no pond indicated on the map.
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That maybe because the Pond was man made and probably constructed after the date of the OS map.
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The pond is the narrow but long rectangle outlined by something white running alongside the grassy bank, and about ten yards from the house wall.
Scouseboy. You don't reply to any of our questions. Here are four for you - could you please address them? It might help clear things up in your own mind.
1. Look at the 1888 - 1913 ordnance survey map. Would you agree that the outline of the house (presumably the pre 1906 house) is of a completely different shape to Cazza's house?
2. Because of its age, it would also have been a completely different style. (somewhere other, a date of 16th or 17th century was mentioned). Do you agree with this?
3. Cazza's photo is clearly taken AFTER 1906, so can not possibly be the older house. Do you also agree with this?
4. The photos you posted earlier of Fron Yw shows a somewhat similar house to Cazza's but with so many major differences that it can not be the same house. Do you agree?
If you seriously still think that Fron Yw is Cazza's house, answering these questions might help us understand why you think so.
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Question three. What makes you think that Cazzas Photo is taken After 1906?
It was probably taken in 1905.
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Question three. What makes you think that Cazzas Photo is taken After 1906?
It was probably taken in 1905.
Questions 1, 2 and 4?
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You're very persistent, I'll give you that!! ;D
I still would like you to think about the answers to those questions though.
Regards
mike
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Let me just repeat that one of my relatives until recently lived in Fron Yw Nursing Home.
The house in Cazzas original photo was PARTIALLY re-built and re-modelled in 1906.
Some of the window frames were re-cycled and installed in the new house. Hence many of the windows look very similar to those in the old house.
Cazzas Photo was taken for several reasons. Perhaps one reason would be to assist the builders and the Architect. Perhaps the re-build coincided with a marriage?
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Let me just repeat that one of my relatives until recently lived in Fron Yw Nursing Home.
The house in Cazzas original photo was PARTIALLY re-built and re-modelled in 1906.
Some of the window frames were re-cycled and installed in the new house. Hence many of the windows look very similar to those in the old house.
Cazzas Photo was taken for several reasons. Perhaps one reason would be to assist the builders and the Architect. Perhaps the re-build coincided with a marriage?
But how about my questions?
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Some of the window frames were re-cycled and installed in the new house. Hence many of the windows look very similar to those in the old house.
Do you have any proof that the window frames were reused in this way, or is it just a theory? And even supposing they were, they don't look to me to be distinctive or unique enough for us to tie them down to one building only.
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Cazzas Photo was taken for several reasons. Perhaps one reason would be to assist the builders and the Architect. Perhaps the re-build coincided with a marriage?
There seem to be an awful lot of "perhaps" in all your answers. Until I'm offered proof rather than theories I will continue to look elsewhere. I still think Southern counties.
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Something else has just occurred to me - apologies if it's been mentioned before.
Someone pointed out the half-hipped roof on the building behind; when I lived in Sussex I felt this style was much more prevalent there and in surrounding counties than in other parts of the country. However, the bay windows seem to have the opposite: hipped below and a vertical gable end above. That strikes me as quite unusual, so is there a name for it that we could search with?
Arthur
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Arthur, according to some of the pages on Google, this type of gable roof seems to be called a Dutch gable, or Dutch hip or gablet. I hope you have some luck in finding it.
Pat
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Arthur, according to some of the pages on Google, this type of gable roof seems to be called a Dutch gable, or Dutch hip or gablet. I hope you have some luck in finding it.
Pat
Thank you, Pat. It's reassuring that my description was good enough for you to know what I was talking about, and even better that you knew the name for it! (Which Google images confirms is correct)
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So perhaps you can give us the title of the book and the author? Someone might be able to access a copy too to have a look :) Does it give a credit for the photograph?
Also I have asked you if you believe the house in Cazza's photo to be the one that was 17th century in origin, but your replies have not really been definite one way or the other. So perhaps I am not being clear enough or not asking the right question.
On Cazza's photo, please can you indicate what architectural features are mid 17th century because I cannot see any?
Re the pond allegedly located at the top of the bank behind a wall - don't think so. Look just to the right of the two bushes at the top of the the flight of steps - there are two equally spaced hemi-spherical stones on top of a sloped wall which I think borders a second set of steps and at the top is a higher terrace with a grass slope up to it. I can't see that it would be a pond with steps leading up to it like that.
(And apologies to anyone who might already have mentioned this particular feature.)
Nell
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Re the pond allegedly located at the top of the bank behind a wall - don't think so. Look just to the right of the two bushes at the top of the the flight of steps - there are two equally spaced hemi-spherical stones on top of a sloped wall which I think borders a second set of steps and at the top is a higher terrace with a grass slope up to it. I can't see that it would be a pond with steps leading up to it like that.
I've just enlarged the photo and I agree, it isn't a wall, just a grass slope or possibly a low hedge. Look at how it slopes down to the path on the right, a wall wouldn't do that.
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The pond is the narrow but long rectangle outlined by something white running alongside the grassy bank, and about ten yards from the house wall.
Scouseboy. You don't reply to any of our questions. Here are four for you - could you please address them? It might help clear things up in your own mind.
1. Look at the 1888 - 1913 ordnance survey map. Would you agree that the outline of the house (presumably the pre 1906 house) is of a completely different shape to Cazza's house?
2. Because of its age, it would also have been a completely different style. (somewhere other, a date of 16th or 17th century was mentioned). Do you agree with this?
3. Cazza's photo is clearly taken AFTER 1906, so can not possibly be the older house. Do you also agree with this?
4. The photos you posted earlier of Fron Yw shows a somewhat similar house to Cazza's but with so many major differences that it can not be the same house. Do you agree?
If you seriously still think that Fron Yw is Cazza's house, answering these questions might help us understand why you think so.
Question 1 No, I would not agree. One face of the house in the photo does match with one side of the plan on the OS map.
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Question 1 No, I would not agree. One face of the house in the photo does match with one side of the plan on the OS map.
This face you mean? Marked by the blue dotted line? It is nothing like Cazza's house.
The red arrows indicate the direction that the photo would have had to be taken from to include the bank and sunken area in the foreground. The OS map shows the shape of the 17th century house - can you make that match the shape of Cazza's house? Also you haven't said whether you genuinely think Cazza's house was built in the 17th century (it clearly wasn't!)
Mike
PS it would be so much easier if the mystery house WAS Cazza's actual house - she could tell us where it was!
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Scouseboy, we need to see the picture you are referring to in your mystery library book.
Can you tell us:
- the NAME of this book
- the page number (even if approximate) that the photo appears on
- give us a contact name and email address for a librarian.
I will contact them directly myself and request that they forward me a copy of this image. That way you don't need to concern yourself with copyright or going out of your way to 're-find' this.
I get the impression that you may not know how to scan or provide a copy of this photo. That is fine - please just let us know if you don't know how to do this, because it seems like you are trying to hide something by not providing the image, whereas if you admit that doing so is beyond your capabilities, then we will understand.
As you may have gathered, many of is think that you are wrong in your theory about the location of this house and if you refuse to provide the above information to support your theory, I think this will confirm to is all that you are, for some unknown reason, spinning us a tale/winding us up etc.
So, I await the details of the book so we can move ahead with this. :)
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Hi Scouseboy, I too cannot see any resemblance between the house you have suggested and the house in Cazza's picture. If you can do as Ruskie has suggested then we can see the photo for ourselves and make a better judgement of whether we feel it is a match or not. At the moment we only have your gut-feeling and no visual evidence/proof of your suggestion.
If you need any help with techie stuff, uploading etc. we are happy to help you with that, :)
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I think John915 commented on the need for a tower and gave the good suggestion of racetrack/racing stables etc.
I have found another use which seems to have literally been to '' keep an eye on the extensive property''
I visited Daw Park Hopsital last night and saw a tower ( this one open due to our marvellous weather all year round 8) ;D ) that was built after 1915.
This was originally a private property full of vines and horses and hay etc so a good eye was needed.
Its interesting that all of the early comments about this being a private property impressed by military then turned into hospital/convalescent are all themes which run through this section of land. :)
http://dhhf.org.au/about/history/
*by the way please keep on ''discussing'' vroom vroom , I will keep looking ;) ;D
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PS it would be so much easier if the mystery house WAS Cazza's actual house - she could tell us where it was!
I have to admit I have a little smile every time I read "Cazza's House".
Sadly I think we might have to admit that this may be the only photo in existence of "Cazza's House" and that the building is long gone, maybe overseas or has been remodelled beyond recognition.
I love everyone's tenacity but maybe in the in words of the immortal Kenny Rogers perhaps it's time "Know when to fold 'em, Know when to walk away, Know when to run"! ;D ;D
(But then again, to quote the words of Napoleon Hill "A quitter never wins, and a winner never quits!" ;D ;D ;D Sorry just a tad bored! ::) ).
However, Scouseboy as much as I admire your determination to find WAI 12, I think possibly it is time to concede that we have wandered off track and perhaps if WAI 12 is to continue, we re-focus, analyse some of the very useful descriptive architectural information people have provided, and continue the search based on these criteria, if people still have the inclination.
Me? I'm off to search for synagogues! ::) ;D
Caz
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I've been considering the age of this house again and trying to put a date to it.
Looking at styles of window and porches, it seems to fall somewhere between Edwardian and 1920s.
As others said, this section with the bay windows was possibly added onto an earlier dwelling.
I was also attempting to date the house from the chimneys but couldn't find enough online to do this, however note that the bay windowed 'addition' has a different chimney style to the flat fronted section on the right, which may also indicate that the bay section is a later addition. The large chimney behind the ivy is different again - I am going to suggest earlier.
Door on the right which is visible looks Victorian in style.
A guide here: http://www.freepedia.co.uk/default.php
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The Arts and Crafts movement which was mentioned so long ago I forgot by who. ;D flourished between 1880 and 1910.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arts_and_Crafts_movement
I have looked at various architects and I can see why it was mentioned. Some of the properties DO incorporate styles we see in Number 12
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I looked at a couple of architects too, but I think the trouble with this house is that it has been added to so may not have been designed from scratch by a particular architect.
Someone earlier in the thread said that they thought the bays were added later. This may be. I wouldn't be surprised if the bay on the right was added to the flat fronted section at a later date to tie in with the new double bayed addition.
The odd thing is that on the right side wall of the doubled bayed section is a Victorian style sash window. Does this mean a bit of money saving reusing an old window, or was that bayed section originally different stylistically? Bays added to modernise it? (Possibly already suggested I think)
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Scouseboy, we need to see the picture you are referring to in your mystery library book.
Can you tell us:
- the NAME of this book
- the page number (even if approximate) that the photo appears on
- give us a contact name and email address for a librarian.
I will contact them directly myself and request that they forward me a copy of this image. That way you don't need to concern yourself with copyright or going out of your way to 're-find' this.
I get the impression that you may not know how to scan or provide a copy of this photo. That is fine - please just let us know if you don't know how to do this, because it seems like you are trying to hide something by not providing the image, whereas if you admit that doing so is beyond your capabilities, then we will understand.
As you may have gathered, many of is think that you are wrong in your theory about the location of this house and if you refuse to provide the above information to support your theory, I think this will confirm to is all that you are, for some unknown reason, spinning us a tale/winding us up etc.
So, I await the details of the book so we can move ahead with this. :)
Denbighshire Archives printed off two pages from the book for me, and have stamped the back of the photo copy with the instruction: This copy may not be reproduced without permission in writing from Senior Archivist.
Title of book: Llandyrnog and Llangwyfan.
A view of the past Historical Society.
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I appreciate that posting the picture to a public forum may not be the appropriate thing to do (with regard to copyright), Scouseboy, so what about scanning it and PM/emailing it to a couple of people (say Cazza and Ruskie for example) so that they can see it?
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That's a good idea.
Could there be a link through the "Great Western Railway"
Page number 51 and 52 of the book.
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That's a good idea.
Could there be a link through the "Great Western Railway"
Sorry you've lost me. What is the significance of the Great Western Railway? :-\
Scouseboy, you neglected to tell me the page numbers of the copy given to you Denbighshire Archives. And do you have a contact name please - presumably the Senior Archivist?
I would like to email them myself as I am not sure you would be willing to send the copy of these pages to myself or preferably Cazza.
If you are happy to send us the appropriate images, could you please do so as soon as possible?
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That's a good idea.
Could there be a link through the "Great Western Railway"
Hi Scouseboy
Before you start another red herring, could we go back to my questions?
Do you think that the house in Cazza's photo was built in the 17th century?
Do you agree that side of the house (indicated by my dotted blue line) on the Ordnance survey map shows a completely different line to the one on Cazza's house?
The answer to these is completely basic to your theory. The Great Western Railway is not.
Mike
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The possible significance of the Great Western Railway is it could be the link we have been looking for on a batch of the photographs.
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Can you answer my (and Mike's) questions please Scouseboy?
I think it wise to ignore your Great Western Railway theory for the moment. It just confuses the issue and is irrelevant. ::)
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Thank you for page numbers. Can I have a contact name please?
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I looked at a couple of architects too, but I think the trouble with this house is that it has been added to so may not have been designed from scratch by a particular architect.
Someone earlier in the thread said that they thought the bays were added later. This may be. I wouldn't be surprised if the bay on the right was added to the flat fronted section at a later date to tie in with the new double bayed addition.
The odd thing is that on the right side wall of the doubled bayed section is a Victorian style sash window. Does this mean a bit of money saving reusing an old window, or was that bayed section originally different stylistically? Bays added to modernise it? (Possibly already suggested I think)
I recall reading recently that there was an act of Parliament in the 1890s relating to windows, and allowing bay windows, which had hitherto not been permitted. Also it was customary to have window seats built on the inside of bay windows.
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Jane Brunning appears to be the Chief Archivist at Denbighshire Archives. Is this the person you have been dealing with Scouseboy?
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Jane Brunning appears to be the Chief Archivist at Denbighshire Archives. Is this the person you have been dealing with Scouseboy?
Nope. Looks like she retired in 2014 .....
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The possible significance of the Great Western Railway is it could be the link we have been looking for on a batch of the photographs.
Sorry to dissuade you from this line of thinking, but any link this photo may have had is to the very first WAIs and as you can see if you refer to Pat's WAI maps, most of the finds were dotted all over the countryside and in no way were centred around the GWR.
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Good evening,
Just had to spend some time catching up on this from my last post on, several late nights at work. There is no way that Cazza's picture and ScouseBoys option are the same house.
Look at the area around it, full of fully grown DECIDUOUS trees, no sign whatsoever of any Scots Pines as in Cazza's pic. It has no tower, no greenhouse and no large building to rear right.
Perhaps they were demolished in the 1700s or have run off with someones marbles.
This house is nowhere near Wales, now or 400 years ago.
I don't know whether I drive further at work or on google maps but I look for this house on both. Every time I see some lonely Scots Pines I have palpitations until I see no house or wrong house.
John915
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The house in Cazzas photograph no longer exists.
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The house in Cazzas photograph no longer exists.
We don't know that.
You still haven't answered these:
That's a good idea.
Could there be a link through the "Great Western Railway"
Hi Scouseboy
Before you start another red herring, could we go back to my questions?
Do you think that the house in Cazza's photo was built in the 17th century?
Do you agree that side of the house (indicated by my dotted blue line) on the Ordnance survey map shows a completely different line to the one on Cazza's house?
The answer to these is completely basic to your theory. The Great Western Railway is not.
Mike
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The house in Cazzas photograph no longer exists.
You keep making statements Scouseboy but have given us no proof.
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Something else has just occurred to me - apologies if it's been mentioned before.
Someone pointed out the half-hipped roof on the building behind; when I lived in Sussex I felt this style was much more prevalent there and in surrounding counties than in other parts of the country. However, the bay windows seem to have the opposite: hipped below and a vertical gable end above. That strikes me as quite unusual, so is there a name for it that we could search with?
Arthur
I believe the building behind is the Coach House and Stables.
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Good evening,
Look at the area around it, full of fully grown DECIDUOUS trees, no sign whatsoever of any Scots Pines as in Cazza's pic. It has no tower, no greenhouse and no large building to rear right.
John915
The Ordnance Survey map of 1888 to 1913 specifically shows Pine trees (coniferous) in a similar location to those which are visible in Cazzas photo.
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Someone pointed out the half-hipped roof on the building behind; when I lived in Sussex I felt this style was much more prevalent there and in surrounding counties than in other parts of the country. However, the bay windows seem to have the opposite: hipped below and a vertical gable end above. That strikes me as quite unusual, so is there a name for it that we could search with?
Arthur
I think they are unusual too Arthur. The taller building looks like a house. You can see windows and curtains on the upper level. The lower building has a tiled roof and skylights of some sort. I'm not sure what that might be.
The two dwellings may be near neighbours, but perhaps the lower building with the skylights may be in the grounds of or attached to the mystery house - as an extension or outbuilding. It appears closer than the house with the hipped roof.
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Question 1 No, I would not agree. One face of the house in the photo does match with one side of the plan on the OS map.
This face you mean? Marked by the blue dotted line? It is nothing like Cazza's house.
The red arrows indicate the direction that the photo would have had to be taken from to include the bank and sunken area in the foreground. The OS map shows the shape of the 17th century house - can you make that match the shape of Cazza's house? Also you haven't said whether you genuinely think Cazza's house was built in the 17th century (it clearly wasn't!)
Mike
PS it would be so much easier if the mystery house WAS Cazza's actual house - she could tell us where it was!
The most illuminating point about those two side by side plan and current satellite image is that the main entrance and access path has been changed completely. You can still see faintly in the field the trace of the old access path
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Someone pointed out the half-hipped roof on the building behind; when I lived in Sussex I felt this style was much more prevalent there and in surrounding counties than in other parts of the country. However, the bay windows seem to have the opposite: hipped below and a vertical gable end above. That strikes me as quite unusual, so is there a name for it that we could search with?
Arthur
I think they are unusual too Arthur. The taller building looks like a house. You can see windows and curtains on the upper level. The lower building has a tiled roof and skylights of some sort. I'm not sure what that might be.
The two dwellings may be near neighbours, but perhaps the lower building with the skylights may be in the grounds of or attached to the mystery house - as an extension or outbuilding. It appears closer than the house with the hipped roof.
Namely a COACH HOUSE and Stables, and accommodation for grooms and stable lads.
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As the building with the hipped roof seems to be quite imposing size wise, and approximately the same height as the mystery house, and it appears that there is a chimney on the right wall, it may be that this is the side of the hipped roofbuilding, and possibly the front is facing the trees we can see behind it.
Odd layout and difficult to work out how the buildings are arranged in the grounds.
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that the front entrance to this house may be on the left, and what we see here is the side view. I wasn't sure about that, but it does seem odd to have the side view of the house behind and the greenhouse, visible at the front of such a posh house. So may be this is a side view after all.
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I think you have hit the nail on the head there.
The main entrance was changed from being near the tower to the other side. You can see the evidence of that on the satellite image. The paths and tracks have clearly been changed.
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Scouseboy.
Are you able to forward a scan, photo (or copy of some sort) of those two pages from Denbighshire Archives to Cazza?
All you need to do is click on her name to send a personal message and forward the appropriate pages.
Thank you.
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Scouseboy.
Are you able to forward a scan, photo (or copy of some sort) of those two pages from Denbighshire Archives to Cazza?
All you need to do is click on her name to send a personal message and forward the appropriate pages.
Thank you.
Which Icon do I click on to send an attachment, please?
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Just click on the person's name on the left side of the screen beside any of their posts.
This will take you to another page.
On the far left is a list. Select "send this person a PM" and away you go.
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Someone pointed out the half-hipped roof on the building behind; when I lived in Sussex I felt this style was much more prevalent there and in surrounding counties than in other parts of the country. However, the bay windows seem to have the opposite: hipped below and a vertical gable end above. That strikes me as quite unusual, so is there a name for it that we could search with?
Arthur
I think they are unusual too Arthur. The taller building looks like a house. You can see windows and curtains on the upper level. The lower building has a tiled roof and skylights of some sort. I'm not sure what that might be.
The two dwellings may be near neighbours, but perhaps the lower building with the skylights may be in the grounds of or attached to the mystery house - as an extension or outbuilding. It appears closer than the house with the hipped roof.
I have got a close up view of an O.S. map from 1874 which shows three "semi detached" properties .
Can the person who posted that "side by side" map/satellite, please go back to the 1874 edition of the OS map, please.
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Hello again Scouseboy.
I've just been informed that you are unable to send attachment via PM.
So in that case Cazza can give you her email address via PM and then you can forward the two pages to her via email.
Do you know how to do this?
If not maybe Cazza can 'coach' you to help you along.
I was just about to contact Denbigh Archives when I realised what a waste of time it would be for the Archivist to duplicate for me what they have already copied for you. I'm sure they have better things to do.
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Someone pointed out the half-hipped roof on the building behind; when I lived in Sussex I felt this style was much more prevalent there and in surrounding counties than in other parts of the country. However, the bay windows seem to have the opposite: hipped below and a vertical gable end above. That strikes me as quite unusual, so is there a name for it that we could search with?
Arthur
I think they are unusual too Arthur. The taller building looks like a house. You can see windows and curtains on the upper level. The lower building has a tiled roof and skylights of some sort. I'm not sure what that might be.
The two dwellings may be near neighbours, but perhaps the lower building with the skylights may be in the grounds of or attached to the mystery house - as an extension or outbuilding. It appears closer than the house with the hipped roof.
I have got a close up view of an O.S. map from 1874 which shows three "semi detached" properties .
Can the person who posted that "side by side" map/satellite, please go back to the 1874 edition of the OS map, please.
No, at this point I think we should stick to getting these pages sent. Going back to maps is not pressing at this stage. We need to see photos of the physical building. Maps aren't going to prove anything at the moment as we are trying to match up a photo of a house not a map or a plan.
As Caz is not online at present I will PM you my email address in case you wish to forward the two pages to me.
I am not as technically minded as Caz and may not be able to coach you through the process if you are having problems sending the images.
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Good morning,
Good evening,
Look at the area around it, full of fully grown DECIDUOUS trees, no sign whatsoever of any Scots Pines as in Cazza's pic. It has no tower, no greenhouse and no large building to rear right.
John915
The Ordnance Survey map of 1888 to 1913 specifically shows Pine trees (coniferous) in a similar location to those which are visible in Cazzas photo.
The presence of 3 symbols for CONIFEROUS trees means nothing. You have no way of telling whether they are Scots Pine, Spruce, Douglas Fir, Norway Fir (Christmas tree) or any other coniferous tree. If you look again they are out numbered about 20 to 1 by the DECIDUOUS trees symbols.
I think you have hit the nail on the head there.
The main entrance was changed from being near the tower to the other side. You can see the evidence of that on the satellite image. The paths and tracks have clearly been changed.
The satellite image shows driveways and paths but that does in no way mean they have been altered at any time. What evidence does that view give that they have been changed, NONE.
IT IS NOT CAZZA'S HOUSE. END OF.
John915
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Some hours ago I sent Scouseboy my email address via PM.
I am still waiting for the copies of the 2 pages from Denbighshire archives which contain the evidence that we are waiting for to prove that Caz's house and Fron Yw are one and the same.
I note that you are currently online and active on the boards Scouseboy and hope you have not forgotten to forward these pages to me.
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I think looking at maps does help us. I had started to compile all this before I saw John's reply above, but it has taken me a while to get all the snippets together.
I am attaching snips of OS maps of varying dates as one image and all carefully dated. All have north at the top, so the angle is consistent. Contours are roughly north-west to south east orientation with higher ground on the right-hand side of each map. It is not possible to say which is the ‘front’ of the house.
In 1871 we can see a house of a very asymmetric shape. To the south east there is an area of woodland – deciduous trees according to the map. To the north of the house, also deciduous trees.
In 1898 there are some coniferous trees now marked. The house seems to have changed its shape a little, but is roughly the same foot-print.
In 1910, we see major differences. The house is now rectangular in shape and the area that was previously shown as all wooded to the south-east is now showing an embankment on three sides, enclosing an area of lower ground. (One could speculate that this is for a croquet lawn or tennis court. ) The trees are all marked as deciduous. NB NO POND
In 1968, the house has been extended on the north-eastern side (a narrow extension) and to the north-west (an extension that is the full width of the house). The embankment can be clearly seen (sorry, cut off a bit) and the rill like water feature appears for the first time under the word ‘Vron’ and extends beyond it. Also note that there are no coniferous trees around the house.
The map revisions published in 1938 and 1953, together with the 2.5 inch map of 1956 do not show the water-feature or other significant changes.
So, if we accept that the photo was taken before the house at Vron Yw was rebuilt in 1906 or so, then the following must apply:
there would not be a pond/water-feature
some 17th century architectural features might be visible as indicated by other published sources.
If the photo was taken after 1906, the photo must have been taken somtime between 1956 or so and 1967/8 – from map evidence. Indications are that the photo is not of this date.
Nell
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The Ordnance Survey map of 1888 to 1913 specifically shows Pine trees (coniferous) in a similar location to those which are visible in Cazzas photo.
Please look at Mike's posting here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=717629.msg5715719#msg5715719 on which he clearly and conclusively demonstrates the direction from which the photo must have been taken to include the bank and supposed pond.
It's plainly obvious from this that the 'coniferous trees' you mention would only show on the right-hand side of the house and not extending right around it as on Cazza's photo.
In any case, the presence of a mere 2 coniferous tree symbols do not constitute any sort of proof.
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Thanks Nell those snippets are very helpful :)
Joy
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Excellent explanation and concise summary Nell, which shows the development of the house and grounds.
However, it does not prove that this house and grounds is same house and grounds in Caz's photo. I am awaiting the two pages from Scouseboy which contain the proof.
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However, it does not prove that this house and grounds is same house and grounds in Caz's photo
Agreed - I have never thought they were the same. The majority of contributors to this thread also seem to feel likewise. In the absence of being able to view the pictures that ScouseBoy has seen, I am falling back on other evidence sources which we can see to provide proof that it is NOT Vron Yw. Our OS maps are a fantastic resource and can explain the landscape we see around us - and in photos.
Nell
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Hi Little Nell, thank you for your excellent and concise summary, from which only one conclusion can be drawn - this is not the house in Cazza's photo.
By the way, for anyone wanting to access them, historical maps of Dembighshire can be seen here http://www.peoplescollection.wales/locate
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Yes, thanks for doing that, Nell. This is yet further, conclusive proof that the mystery house can not possibly be Fron Yw.
Scouseboy may be having a huge laugh at all our expenses, in which case I take my hat off to him as a maestro of the wind-up. If he really does still believe, however, that Fron Yw is the mystery house, it is time for him to answer the many questions put to him, not least of which is:
Do you genuinely believe that Cazza's photo shows a 17th century house?
I'm very conscious though that it's much easier proving again and again that this is NOT the house than it is to find the real place. I'm as guilty of this as anyone.
Mike
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I think he's winding you up and doing a good job of it..
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Some hours ago I sent Scouseboy my email address via PM.
I am still waiting for the copies of the 2 pages from Denbighshire archives which contain the evidence that we are waiting for to prove that Caz's house and Fron Yw are one and the same.
I note that you are currently online and active on the boards Scouseboy and hope you have not forgotten to forward these pages to me.
. I sent you an e mail, however it was returned as undelivered.
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I will send you my email address again now. :)
Added: Sent just now. It might be an idea to cut and paste it Scouseboy to ensure you get it correct.
Added: I think if it is highlighted then you can just click on it to email directly. :-\ It is definitely working Scouseboy because I have just received several emails to the same address.
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Sorry I haven't been around, but I was out most of the day. Anyway, Scouseboy has kindly forwarded the email he received from Denbighshire Archives with a copy of the OS map.
Scouseboy as stated earlier, is concerned that there might be a breach of copyright if we post it on Rootschat so I have researched the issue and from the attached link, OS maps are out of copyright 50 years after they are first published, so I think it is safe for me to attach the map.
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-and-government/licensing/crown-copyright.html
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I've been following this thread with great interest, especially the "Debate" regarding proof and/or lack of proof regarding ScouseBoys thoughts on Fron Yw and the only thing I can add is that my head has imploded!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Frank.
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Yes, thanks for doing that, Nell. This is yet further, conclusive proof that the mystery house can not possibly be Fron Yw.
Scouseboy may be having a huge laugh at all our expenses, in which case I take my hat off to him as a maestro of the wind-up. If he really does still believe, however, that Fron Yw is the mystery house, it is time for him to answer the many questions put to him, not least of which is:
Do you genuinely believe that Cazza's photo shows a 17th century house?
I'm very conscious though that it's much easier proving again and again that this is NOT the house than it is to find the real place. I'm as guilty of this as anyone.
Mike
. I am expressing the opinion that Cazzas photo in the original post is dated between 1900 to 1905 .
The maps show that the access paths and tracks at that time were on the side near the tower.
The re-modelling or re-building of 1906 was substantial and created a new front drive. And. An impressive view over the Vale of Clwyd.
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But Caz. It's just another map. :(
I thought Scouseboy had two pages of proof including pictures (including reused windows) which showed that your house and Fron Yw are the same place.
Surely the map shows us nothing more than we already know? :-\
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This is just a plan. It shows the same building as that on the first map on Nell's posting. It proves nothing.
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Scouseboy. Are you saying that this map shows Caz's house in it's grounds?
If so can you please highlight which of the pink bits on the map show:
The tower
The greenhouse
The low building behind the greenhouse
The house with the gable
The actual house with flat fronted section and bayed section
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Here you go Scouseboy:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=53.1855&lon=-3.3162&layers=171&right=BingHyb
I am not sure if the location of your nursing home as suggested by Google is completely accurate, but you will see there is nothing on that site on this map. :-\
Added: I see google's suggested location was not accurate and I have discovered the entrance to the nursing home right beside the church. And yes, there is a structure on the site on the old map.
The layout of that house as it existed then and as it exists now does not bear any resemblance to Caz's house. (Image of nursing home was posted earlier by Jen I believe)
I'm giving this up now (I should have done so ages ago ::)). I feel like too much time has been spent trying to prove you wrong Scouseboy, when it would be better spent trying to find the true location of the house.
Thank you for that link. I had to move the position slightly to locate Fron Yw.
The drive up to Fron Yw starts adjacent to the Church, but the drive is perhaps 500 yards long, and leads to other properties as well.
I have got a photo with the caption "Rebuilding Vron Yw c.1906 to its present form"
It seems to me that one of the things they were changing is the main entrance to the house from the back to the front. They re-cycled some of the window frames from the old house to the new house. My photo shows about 24 men working on the site.
Please can we see this photo (or email it to Cazza so that she can verify it for us)
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That little dog in the original photo must be laughing its head off at us all trying to puzzle out where this wretched house is! I log in several times a day in the hope that the puzzle has been solved!
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I've posted the map to show that Scouseboy genuinely believes this is the house and has gone to the trouble of getting this map emailed from the archives (email is dated 9 July), although I think just having a quick read through the comments, there is enough evidence provided by other Rootschatters to show that this is not the right location.
From the very little I know and have recently read, I assume this house is arts and crafts style which dates it from 1880 to 1900ish, this fact alone rules out Scouseboy's theory.
I appreciate the time and effort that he has put into the search and he has certainly gone the extra mile, however I think it's time to concede once and for all, that as much as we would like it to be, this is not "Cazza's House". :)
Caz
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I appreciate the time and effort that he has put into the search and he has certainly gone the extra mile, however I think it's time to concede once and for all, that as much as we would like it to be, this is not "Cazza's House". :)
I agree Caz. We now need to turn our attention to finding where it is/was, rather than trying to prove where it isn't.
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Scouseboy. Are you saying that this map shows Caz's house in it's grounds?
If so can you please highlight which of the pink bits on the map show:
The tower
The greenhouse
The low building behind the greenhouse
The house with the gable
The actual house with flat fronted section and bayed section
. If you take the middle "house" on the latest map from Cazza as now demolished .
The remaining property on the right, I think the square in the corner relates to the square gabled part on the left of cazzas photo.
To repeat, my relative has until recently lived in the nursing home, and in fact her funeral was in the nearby church at the end of the drive.
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Which middle house?
Which square in which corner?
Your relative, I'm afraid is irrelevant, to the search.
Added: Actually don't bother answering those questions.
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I don't know how useful it may be in the circumstances but Denbighshire Archives apparently holds a 1793 pen and wash image of Vron Yw and Llangwyfan Church.I can't find the image online,but if this is still rumbling on later in the week,I could visit the archives to try to obtain a copy or,possibly visit the site to try to take photographs.I am approx. 12-15 miles away.
Regards
Roger
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Right. Now lets get looking (again) for this darned mystery house.
I'm sticking by my estimate of a house built just before or around the 1920s. I'd say the photo is pretty good quality so probably taken more recently.
I agree with those who've suggested that it looks to be in a style located in the southern part of England.
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Yesterday I read through some of the earlier threads, and it was striking that most of the images in the original set were linked to the Clifton-Brown and related families.
As this house isn't a big country house like some of those others, I wondered if it might be a house on one of those estates. Actually if so, and especially if it no longer exists, there may be no photos on the web of the house, and if it is still standing it may be not visible from a public place so no pics from Geograph, Street View etc to help out.
It seemed that Cazza was contacting some Moon relatives and I presume there has been no response from the famliy concerned?
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I don't know how useful it may be in the circumstances but Denbighshire Archives apparently holds a 1793 pen and wash image of Vron Yw and Llangwyfan Church.I can't find the image online,but if this is still rumbling on later in the week,I could visit the archives to try to obtain a copy or,possibly visit the site to try to take photographs.I am approx. 12-15 miles away.
Regards
Roger
That is a very kind offer Roger, but my thought is that Vron Yw is irrelevant to the search for Caz's house, and I wouldn't want you to waste your time. See what others think though.
Like Caz and Groom, I think we need to move on to finding the real house. :)
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I appreciate the time and effort that he has put into the search and he has certainly gone the extra mile, however I think it's time to concede once and for all, that as much as we would like it to be, this is not "Cazza's House". :)
I agree Caz. We now need to turn our attention to finding where it is/was, rather than trying to prove where it isn't.
What a very sensible idea!
If Scouseboy can provide photographic proof sometime down the track that would be wonderful. However, in the meantime let's do what Groom suggests, and move on to other ideas. I think it might be a worthwhile exercise to go back through the pages and collate the very insightful comments regarding the design, layout etc of the building, to see if there are any clues that might provide further search terms.
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Good idea Caz.
I did consider suggesting that you repost the original image and start a whole new thread. However there has already been a lot of research and good suggestions put forward so it's a shame to lose them.
55 pages though is a lot to trawl through and much of it is irrelevant. ::)
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My head is doing 360 degree spins…. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think you'll feel better once we get back on track. ;)
I will probably regret this, but if I have time tomorrow I will go through the thread and extract the relevant points to construct a summary of thoughts and opinions (and I'll try to keep it brief and in note form) :P
[Anyone else is welcome to volunteer if they wish and can get it done sooner than (my) tomorrow. ;)]
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55 pages though is a lot to trawl through and much of it is irrelevant. ::)
Go to your profile and adjust the ''replies per page'' to 50.
I only have to go through 10. :)
But I understand if people don't have the connection speed etc to do this.
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Ah yes, I forgot about that. I used it a while back but didn't like having to scroll down so many posts per page and kept getting lost. :)
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Yesterday I read through some of the earlier threads, and it was striking that most of the images in the original set were linked to the Clifton-Brown and related families.
As this house isn't a big country house like some of those others, I wondered if it might be a house on one of those estates. Actually if so, and especially if it no longer exists, there may be no photos on the web of the house, and if it is still standing it may be not visible from a public place so no pics from Geograph, Street View etc to help out.
It seemed that Cazza was contacting some Moon relatives and I presume there has been no response from the famliy concerned?
I also thought that perhaps this was some coastal holiday home or a "spa" that they stayed at, but that is of course making a massive assumption that the photo is connected to them.
That is correct, sadly I didn't receive a response to my emails.
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Yesterday I read through some of the earlier threads, and it was striking that most of the images in the original set were linked to the Clifton-Brown and related families.
As this house isn't a big country house like some of those others, I wondered if it might be a house on one of those estates. Actually if so, and especially if it no longer exists, there may be no photos on the web of the house, and if it is still standing it may be not visible from a public place so no pics from Geograph, Street View etc to help out.
It seemed that Cazza was contacting some Moon relatives and I presume there has been no response from the famliy concerned?
Some of us also feel this is worth pursuing. I believe yorkslass has some ebooks of Cliftons and Moons and Hanburys etc
I have looked through a few.
It was also why we concentrated on Sussex in the first place as I found a link to http://www.slaughamarchives.org/picture/number1431.asp which has some connection to Mildred Clifton Nix - we then noticed some similar styles , which is where I have focussed most of my searches.
Good to see you still thinking John :)
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55 pages though is a lot to trawl through and much of it is irrelevant. ::)
Go to your profile and adjust the ''replies per page'' to 50.
I only have to go through 10. :)
But I understand if people don't have the connection speed etc to do this.
I've been a member of Rootschat for 10 years…and never knew that until now! :o ::) ;D
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The dog says: "You are barking up the wrong tree"
>:(. ;D
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I've been a member of Rootschat for 10 years…and never knew that until now! :o ::) ;D
I thought because most of your posting was pics you chose not to. With mention of limits etc I figured you were saving money ;D
If I go anywhere that has limits I always go the highest. Ancestry 50 per page
Cornwall OPC 100 per page
etc etc
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I appreciate the time and effort that he has put into the search and he has certainly gone the extra mile, however I think it's time to concede once and for all, that as much as we would like it to be, this is not "Cazza's House". :)
I agree Caz. We now need to turn our attention to finding where it is/was, rather than trying to prove where it isn't.
Way back on page 12 I think it was someone posted a link to the nursing home Fron
If you compare the middle part of the Cazza original photo with the right hand side of the nursing home. You will see that the dimensions of the windows and number of panes corresponds very closely in both houses. QED
What a very sensible idea!
If Scouseboy can provide photographic proof sometime down the track that would be wonderful. However, in the meantime let's do what Groom suggests, and move on to other ideas. I think it might be a worthwhile exercise to go back through the pages and collate the very insightful comments regarding the design, layout etc of the building, to see if there are any clues that might provide further search terms.
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Yesterday I read through some of the earlier threads, and it was striking that most of the images in the original set were linked to the Clifton-Brown and related families.
As this house isn't a big country house like some of those others, I wondered if it might be a house on one of those estates...
I only discovered this Where Am I? series after it had been running for quite some time, haven't read through all the solved pictures, and have only picked up occasional references to the Clifton-Browns etc.
To help me and any other latecomers, would anyone be able to list the places they were associated with, please? Sorry if that's a big ask (and if it's too big, don't worry), but it may be easier for someone who's actually read the threads to pick out the relevant ones than for me to go through them all one by one.
Thanks,
Arthur
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Way back on page 12 I think it was someone posted a link to the nursing home Fron
If you compare the middle part of the Cazza original photo with the right hand side of the nursing home. You will see that the dimensions of the windows and number of panes corresponds very closely in both houses. QED
(I think that quotes the bit you've just written - it appeared in your post as a quote rather than as something original.)
In view of recent discussion of number of posts per page, since many of us have the number set differently it doesn't help to tell us what page a particular post is on, especially when you're a bit vague about it. (We also don't know what setting you are using.) Please could you find the actual post and tell us what number it is?
Arthur
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Yesterday I read through some of the earlier threads, and it was striking that most of the images in the original set were linked to the Clifton-Brown and related families.
As this house isn't a big country house like some of those others, I wondered if it might be a house on one of those estates...
I only discovered this Where Am I? series after it had been running for quite some time, haven't read through all the solved pictures, and have only picked up occasional references to the Clifton-Browns etc.
To help me and any other latecomers, would anyone be able to list the places they were associated with, please? Sorry if that's a big ask (and if it's too big, don't worry), but it may be easier for someone who's actually read the threads to pick out the relevant ones than for me to go through them all one by one.
Thanks,
Arthur
Arthur, there is actually a map done by Trishanne (Pat) that shows the locations of most of the WAIs, I'll bump it up to the top of the board. However from memory:
Burnham Beeches, Slough - home of the Clifton Browns
Balhomie - Perthshire - home of the Moon family
Glen Lyon - Perthshire -
Inverewe Lodge - Rosshire - home of the Hanbury family
Ravensworth Castle - Newcastle Upon Tyne
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Way back on page 12 I think it was someone posted a link to the nursing home Fron
If you compare the middle part of the Cazza original photo with the right hand side of the nursing home. You will see that the dimensions of the windows and number of panes corresponds very closely in both houses. QED
(I think that quotes the bit you've just written - it appeared in your post as a quote rather than as something original.)
In view of recent discussion of number of posts per page, since many of us have the number set differently it doesn't help to tell us what page a particular post is on, especially when you're a bit vague about it. (We also don't know what setting you are using.) Please could you find the actual post and tell us what number it is?
Arthur
OK
Here is the link www.northwalescare.org.uk/caresearch/pages/1896/nursing_homes_in_denbigh
And if you go to Reply 141 you will see two houses side by side.
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When you compare the photos, it becomes obvious that virtually everything that could be different about these two houses IS different. They are not the same place.
This is the point at which the Search could have been completed.
If you look at the section on the Nursing Home with the door in it. Compare the three upstairs windows with the old photo. you can see that the spacing is identical. The lower ground floor are on a similar scale. the window frames appear to be identical in style and size.
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Arthur, there is actually a map done by Trishanne (Pat) that shows the locations of most of the WAIs, I'll bump it up to the top of the board. However from memory:
Burnham Beeches, Slough - home of the Clifton Browns
Balhomie - Perthshire - home of the Moon family
Glen Lyon - Perthshire -
Inverewe Lodge - Rosshire - home of the Hanbury family
Ravensworth Castle - Newcastle Upon Tyne
Thank you :)
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Arthur,
If you go to the top of the board, you will see Pat's brilliant maps.
Caz
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Way back on page 12 I think it was someone posted a link to the nursing home Fron
If you compare the middle part of the Cazza original photo with the right hand side of the nursing home. You will see that the dimensions of the windows and number of panes corresponds very closely in both houses. QED
(I think that quotes the bit you've just written - it appeared in your post as a quote rather than as something original.)
In view of recent discussion of number of posts per page, since many of us have the number set differently it doesn't help to tell us what page a particular post is on, especially when you're a bit vague about it. (We also don't know what setting you are using.) Please could you find the actual post and tell us what number it is?
Arthur
OK
Here is the link www.northwalescare.org.uk/caresearch/pages/1896/nursing_homes_in_denbigh
And if you go to Reply 141 you will see two houses side by side.
Thanks for the link etc. You wrote:
If you compare the middle part of the Cazza original photo with the right hand side of the nursing home. You will see that the dimensions of the windows and number of panes corresponds very closely in both houses. QED
No they don't. Plus, different roof shapes, bay windows (or lack of), ditto dormer windows, passageway through nursing home, brick vs stone (probably)... how much more must we go on?
Arthur
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That is because the house was RE-BUILT in 1906. A substantial re-build. New main entrance. New roof
A team of more than 24 craftsmen involved in the re-build.
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That is because the house was RE-BUILT in 1906. A substantial re-build. New main entrance. New roof
A team of more than 24 craftsmen involved in the re-build.
Are you able to email the photo to me at all? It would be awesome to see it and get some further analysis/opinions based on visual evidence.
Caz
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Ravensworth Castle - Newcastle Upon Tyne
:o :o :o
AAAAGGGGHHHHH Ravensworth Castle isn't in Newcastle on Tyne. It's in County Durham!!!!!
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It will have to wait until tomorrow, Monday, as the copy I have got is on paper and not Digital.
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So, just to clarify, Scouseboy, are you saying that the photo of "Cazza's house" is pre 1906, it was demolished and the link Arthik gave us is of the new house, the one your relative was in? If so, and if, inspite of what everyone has said, you are still convinced that you are right, we need another photo of the house before the rebuild. Have we got that?
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Like groom, I'm confused.
Here you say the photos show the houses are similar:
Way back on page 12 I think it was someone posted a link to the nursing home Fron
If you compare the middle part of the Cazza original photo with the right hand side of the nursing home. You will see that the dimensions of the windows and number of panes corresponds very closely in both houses. QED
And when it's pointed out that they aren't, you say it's because it's been rebuilt:
That is because the house was RE-BUILT in 1906. A substantial re-build. New main entrance. New roof
In other words, you are admitting that the only photo that has so far been provided of Vron Yw proves nothing. The only thing that is likely to convince us that you are right is a picture of Vron Yw as it was before the 1906 rebuild - though since the house in Caz's photo clearly dates from about 1880-1920 and you have described Vron Yw as a much older building, your chances of doing so are, I am afraid, minimal.
By all means keep looking at Vron Yw if you want, but if I can summon up the energy I'll be looking in more likely places.
Arthur
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So, just to clarify, Scouseboy, are you saying that the photo of "Cazza's house" is pre 1906, it was demolished and the link Arthik gave us is of the new house, the one your relative was in? If so, and if, inspite of what everyone has said, you are still convinced that you are right, we need another photo of the house before the rebuild. Have we got that?
I do not think that it was totally demolished. I think that it was substantially re-modelled at great expense. Yes, I have been looking for more photos for about a month now..
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You still haven't said whether you genuinely believe that Cazza's house is the 17th century house that was demolished to make way for Fron Yw.
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ScouseBoy:
And how would you explain the complete absence of a pond on any map until after 1956? Please don't malign the OS maps since they were of very high scale - any pond would have been surveyed and marked.
This pond was one of the main features that you advocated as a positive means of identification, but it simply did not exist in 1910 or 1920s or even the 1940s. It was not a feature of the old house. And anyway, it is not possible to see the water surface - if it exists - in the the photo of the house to determine if there was one there - which I personally doubt.
I'm really sorry that none of us seem to be able to convince you with all this evidence. :(
And in the meantime, we are not looking for the house at all, but wasting time on something that we don't believe. How daft ::)
Nell
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I suggest that we ask a poster who has not previously been engrossed in this thread, an Independent if you like, to go back to about post 140 and review the post at 141 ( I think it was) in which Cazzas original photo was put side by side with Fron Yw nursing home.
If that independent reviewer could look in particular at the middle section of Cazzas photo with the door in it. I believe that section was only cosmetically changed during the re-build. It had a new roof, but the three rooms on the first floor and the two rooms on ground floor and the hall and door were improved by having the bay windows removed. Someone with a "builders" eye would be preferable. I put it to you that my observations were unfairly rejected out of hand.
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Ok, I will put the pictures in front of my husband (has not looked at this thread at all, and I haven't mentioned the debate to him) and let him have a look. He is not a builder, but he is an archaeologist and has been involved with a lot of historical research.
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I think it would be a more productive use of time to look for the real house but let's see what Spidermonkey's husband makes of it.
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Thank you Spidermonkey. Lets have "peer review" as they call it nowadays.
I suggest that post 139 is about the point.
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As said before, husband is not a builder, so if anyone else has a spare builder hanging around then perhaps they could also look at the images.
Ok, husband's verdict was that the only way the colour photo could be the same house as Cazza's house is if Cazza's house had been totally knocked down and then rebuilt. Roof pitch is different, the axis of the building has been changed, and the colour photo house has stone mullioned windows (which are older than those on Cazza's house).
All that said, I would still like to see (even by proxy) a copy of the picture that Scouseboy has seen in the book. Especially as Scouseboy is so sure that he has cracked it, I think it is only fair and reasonable that we reserve judgement until that has been seen.
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I have got two pages photo copied from the book ( on paper, not digital)
It is a black and white photo with the new house still under construction. There is scaffolding up.
Some sort of wheeled mechanical device, possibly a steam driven cement mixer. A horse probably for transporting materials. 25 workmen plus two people in one of the upstairs rooms, not yet glazed.
If I can get to the Library tomorrow I will try to scan and send it.
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I'm not following this I think. Are you saying that Caz's photo is of the old house? If so, I don't see how a photo of the new one being built will help identify it.
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I'm not following this I think. Are you saying that Caz's photo is of the old house? If so, I don't see how a photo of the new one being built will help identify it.
Yes. The story is that, despite its 19th/early 20th century appearance, Cazza's house is actually a 17th century building. Around 1906, it was demolished, or at least substantially rebuilt to become the present Fron Yw. This is despite the fact that all the old OS maps show a house that could not possibly have been Cazza's, and the fact that the photo is clearly not as old as 1906.
The main bit of evidence for all this is that both gardens have a sloping bank and a flat area.
The photo's showing the present house being rebuilt can't possibly help unless there were some elements of the 17th century house still visible and identifiable as being part of Cazza's house. Don't hold your breath.
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I'm not following this I think. Are you saying that Caz's photo is of the old house? If so, I don't see how a photo of the new one being built will help identify it.
Yes. The story is that, despite its 19th/early 20th century appearance, Cazza's house is actually a 17th century building. Around 1906, it was demolished, or at least substantially rebuilt to become the present Fron Yw. This is despite the fact that all the old OS maps show a house that could not possibly have been Cazza's, and the fact that the photo is clearly not as old as 1906.
You have no evidence for saying "It could not possibly have been Cazzas"
It was a multi-facetted house with many different faces.
You dismissed it "out of hand" way back at about post 141, without much thought or much careful analysis and now you are not capable of reviewing your ideas despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
All the evidence is that it IS Fron Yw.
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That's truly hilarious.
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Scouseboy, could you possibly take a digital photo of the 2 photocopied pages and email them to Cazza? We can then give our opinions and move on with this thread one way or the other.
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Just felt I had to respond to the postings by Scouseboy on his belief that Vron Yw or Fron Iw is Cazza's house.
Half tile hung houses are not a feature I have ever seen in North Wales. There are many varied styles of architecture and building materials but if this was a 'Welsh house' it would either be built of stone or brick and I say this having lived in the area for over half a century!!!!
The style of house may be similar but the 'vernacular' is wrong.
I believe that this house is either in Sussex or Surrey.
Trish
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Here again are the two pictures together.
I think Scouseboy is having a lovely time, winding everybody up, when he can see there is no comparison or anywhere near it.
We probably have all found property which makes us stop and have another look. These two photos do not fall into that category.
Another example of Scouseboy's sense of 'fun'. Spidermonkey recently posted a photo which turned out to be Auld Brig o' Doon. Within 25 minutes of posting here are Scouseboy's suggestions - Shrewsury, Compton Acres, Poole, Bournemouth and Durham.
I will say no more.
Pat
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Even the slope is different, and that was one of the criteria that Scouseboy was using. In the second photo there is only one slope, on the original there are two, and two sets of steps.
Perhaps it is time this thread was closed as it is going nowhere, then if people have positive proof of where it is and photos to back it up, they could PM Caz, who could then let us know?
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Sorry Scouseboy, but I see no resemblance whatsoever. I think you would like Cazza's house to be the house where your relative stayed, but it is definitely not.
I personally think we should now disregard any posts regarding Fron Yw and concentrate on finding where the house really is.
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Perhaps rather than completely closing this thread, Cazza closes this version of the thread. I think Ruskie was going to put together a summary of useful information (e.g. the suggestion of Lutyens as the architect, possible dates, architectural styles). Cazza could then repost the picture and a summary and we could take it from there - after all on the default setting we are at about 60 pages and that does make it very unwieldy, no matter how much irrelevant stuff has been discussed :D
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Perhaps it is time this thread was closed as it is going nowhere, then if people have positive proof of where it is and photos to back it up, they could PM Caz, who could then let us know?
Seconded!
Either way, I won't be posting in this thread until the blessed day comes when someone actually finds the wretched house.
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This is getting out of hand :( I can see similarities between Scouseboy's photo
and Cazza's photo but I can also see a multitude of differences ::)
I also sense the frustration that everyone feels in the face of such overwhelming
conviction by Scouseboy but I would not like to see this develop into an attack on
Scouseboy or any of his suggestions re locations.
Just my opinion
Joy
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Thank you Joy.
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Scouseboy, I hope you don't feel that we are attacking you, it is certainly not my intention and I'm sure others wouldn't want you to feel that way. I just think we need to move on with the search and if in the meantime you find some new positive proof in the form of a photograph then we will be happy to think again.
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I agree with Jool. Unless we can see some positive proof, I think we are going to have to leave it there.
Pat
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I was surprised when I logged on this morning to see that there are several more pages to this thread. ;D
I also sense the frustration that everyone feels in the face of such overwhelming
conviction by Scouseboy but I would not like to see this develop into an attack on
Scouseboy or any of his suggestions re locations.
You are a very nice person Joy. Nicer than me that's for sure. ;D
I will get working on that summary shortly and I agree it would be worth Caz reposting her original image and the summary so we can start afresh.
And may I politely request that on the new thread that Scouseboy refrain from any mention of his nursing home, and if he could please supply images to support any future theories that would be helpful to all.
PS. The two houses in the images posted above have no similarities to each other whatsoever including chimney location. The windows are in a slightly similar style but that style of window was commonly used.
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I was surprised when I logged on this morning to see that there are several more pages to this thread. ;D
I wasnt
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lol dg, your dry sense of humour always makes me giggle ;D
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While Ruskie is getting together a more comprehensive summary I will give a quick précis of my thoughts
%^*$&
Now a summary
1. I think it is a view from the rear. I agree an orangery/sunroom/glasshouse would NOT be visible
2. There are further buildings to the back ie the glasshouse has a further building behind, which makes me think the whole building could be a C shape from the front
3. There have been additions over the years. The 2 entrances suggest this , plus other factors
4. I do agree it is '' in the style of '' The Arts and Crafts movement which flourished between 1880-1910
5. The picture was taken after 1906
6. The lawn is/was used for recreation rather than just having lawn covering a large space.
7. There is a span of Scots Pine from the ''front'' of the building.
8. The tower is suggestive of a coastal location but doesn't exclude inland
If anyone wishes to add to these you are most welcome :)
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Very nice dg. I think this might be useful to add to Caz's new thread under a "what we almost all agree on" heading. :)
I have almost finished going through the current thread making my summary but I need to tidy it up before posting. It didn't take as long as I expected because "the red herring" was thrown in way back at page 14 and much of the subsequent discussion has been about that. ::)
Speaking of that ... for anyone still following the saga, I still have not received the copy of the two pages (from Scouseboy) which Denbighshire Archives sent him. I had a feeling I wouldn't. ::)
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Caz. I have completed the summary. Please let me know if you wish to use it at the start of a new thread and I will PM it to you, or shall I post it here?
I have found the close-ups extremely useful as they show up many features not evident in the normal sized photo. I am wondering if it is possible to either post a huge enlarged photo that we can scroll around, or post enlarged sections of the entire photo?
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Reading some of the comments, I think perhaps a new thread will be appropriate now that we have a summary, to save people wading through to find what has already been suggested so we don't double up. To keep the numbering system I will call it No. 12a.
Caz
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It will have to wait until tomorrow, Monday, as the copy I have got is on paper and not Digital.
I have got two pages photo copied from the book ( on paper, not digital)
It is a black and white photo with the new house still under construction. There is scaffolding up.
Some sort of wheeled mechanical device, possibly a steam driven cement mixer. A horse probably for transporting materials. 25 workmen plus two people in one of the upstairs rooms, not yet glazed.
If I can get to the Library tomorrow I will try to scan and send it.
Thank you so much for doing this, but please don't make a special trip just for me. I do appreciate very much what you have already done.
Caz
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Caz. I have completed the summary. Please let me know if you wish to use it at the start of a new thread and I will PM it to you, or shall I post it here?
I have found the close-ups extremely useful as they show up many features not evident in the normal sized photo. I am wondering if it is possible to either post a huge enlarged photo that we can scroll around, or post enlarged sections of the entire photo?
Great stuff Ruskie. 8) If there are any particular areas of the house that people would like a close up of, please let me know.
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If people could not post any further comments on this thread while I set up a new one and get some new scans, that would be great. :) :)
I will post a link to the new thread here for anyone that drops by.
Caz
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Unfortunately I have made two posts within 24 hours, so I can't post the next No. 12a thread until about 9.30pm Australian time. Sorry. :(
Caz
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To help with the new thread, it would be very useful to have Cazza's idea of whether this photo is part of what we could call the Clifton Brown set. There's no way to tell from the picture as posted on the thread, but the original post for No 12 said the photo was the same size, paper etc as the set. On the other hand, several people have said this photo (photo not the building) looks later than the ca1907 of the others in the set. So some clarification would help.
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Hi John
I must have missed the post about the date of the photo. Can you recall on what basis people think it's older than c1907? I don't know either way. The only thing I can tell you, it is on the same wafer thin paper as the Clifton Browns and the same tone, but all that proves is that is from approximately the same era.
There is no evidence to prove or disprove a link to the other WAIs.
I think the safest thing is to assume that it is a stand alone photo, that way no one goes on a wild goose chase to prove a connection.
Caz
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Pretty sure the goose is loose
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Pretty sure the goose is loose
;D ;D ;D ;D
The goose might even be cooked!
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Hi John
I must have missed the post about the date of the photo. Can you recall on what basis people think it's older than c1907? I don't know either way. The only thing I can tell you, it is on the same wafer thin paper as the Clifton Browns and the same tone, but all that proves is that is from approximately the same era.
There is no evidence to prove or disprove a link to the other WAIs.
I think the safest thing is to assume that it is a stand alone photo, that way no one goes on a wild goose chase to prove a connection.
Caz
Hi Caz thanks for the reply. I actually meant that people on the thread said the photo looked from a later era maybe 20s/30s (not earlier). That would mean it wasn't from the same batch. But if the photo has the same paper/size/condition as "the set", and you acquired them together, isn't it likely that they're all related?
As I said, I do think it's unlikely this will be found, especially given the time people have already spent on it.
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Great stuff Ruskie. 8) If there are any particular areas of the house that people would like a close up of, please let me know.
Virtually the entire house Caz. But that may not be feasible.
I just noticed the extra detail that could be seen on all of the closeups. Quite amazing really.
Perhaps repost those you've already posted on this thread and fill in the gaps? I know that some of the features I noticed and commented on through looking at the "non closeup", were rendered almost irrelevant upon looking at the closeups which revealed so much more detail.
So, I suppose, as much detail as you can provide wold be ideal. :)
See what others think though as I wouldn't want enlargements for my whims alone. ;D and of course there is no guarantee that closeups will help with identification.
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Yes and no, because there were a couple of others that I can't remember off hand, that are along the same lines and I doubt they are connected.
I agree, I doubt this one will be found, but then I didn't think the house in India would be found either and Yorkslass proved me wrong.
It might turn up one day, if not, then it's provided many hours of entertainment (read that as frustration, tearing of hair and absolute agony) for a lot of people! ;D ;D
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Whoops, you snuck in their Ruskie. ;D My response is to John above.
Okay…I'll scan it bit by bit.
Shouldn't be too much longer until I can post.
Caz
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Unfortunately I still can't create a new thread, not sure why, but I'll try again tomorrow. I have done quite a few scans but not sure they will tell us anything new.
Caz
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You are right about the scans not helping us identify the house.
See whether others want to see closeups before going ahead and doing it. I might just be me being nosey which makes me interested to see all the detail. ;)
(Eg, I noticed on the far right beside the gabled house, behind the brick chimney appears to be a canopy possibly over a front or back door (already mentioned by Caz earlier in the thread I think). There is also another brick building or lean to - maybe a wall - and what looks like an open door. I just thought it was interesting. ;) ;D)
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Here 'tis Part Two…. ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=727464.0
Caz