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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Old-Bonez on Monday 27 April 15 03:04 BST (UK)
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I have a "Brookfield" brick wall that I have been playing around the edges of for a few months now with no luck at all. FamilySearch and Ancestory have his marriage & children but that is as far as it goes.
The only information I can give that apparently is researchable is "Henry Brookfield married Sophia Drummond 1887 Fitzroy, Melbourne". From this his birth year would be before 1870. (He may have been known as Harry like his son). I still have to purchase his marriage cert to see if it reveals anything new however you good folk at Roots Chat have managed a breakthrough before so I'm hoping for the same again (if I'm lucky that is).
I have plenty of information on his wife and children but it is his birth, siblings and parents info that I'm after. From his youngest son Josephs Army Enrolment papers in 1918 it is stated that his father was dead. Joseph was born 1898 Cootamundra NSW. So Henry died between 1898 & 1918
His wife Sophia Drummond remarried in 1903 but that doesn't mean that he died and in fact she had a child in 1901 named Norman Brookfield (NSW BDM 21529/1901) her new husband to be was Norman Solah. The child grew up as Norman Solah. (obviously his real father).
Family knowledge is vague however it does tell of a trip to Sth Africa where upon his return he had a walking cane with a jewel of some kind in the head of it. Someone said it was a large emerald. He may have returned to SA.
There are no deaths at NSW BDM that fit.
There are no Convict arrivals that fit (Convict Thomas Brookfield had no descendants)
Assisted immigrants so far have drawn a blank (Searchs incomplete)
Passengers are also drawing blanks (even to and from Sth Africa) (Searchs incomplete)
Brookfields emigrated to Qld ... Apparently stayed there.
Brookfields in Vic;
Frederick Morris Preston Brookfield (solicitor) is the earliest Brookfield in Victoria Electorial Rolls. "1856 South Bourke, Victoria". emigrated to New Zealand in 1851, died 1906.
My best possability was a John Henry Brookfield b.1855 Eaglehawk, Vic but apparently this wasn't his family either (father John Olando Brookfield d. 1976 Sandhurst Vic.
I just can't link my Henry in with any Brookfield family in Vic & nor can I find shipping records that fit.
The last piece of information I got from family info/stories was that the Percival Brookfield that was shot at Riverton Railway Station was his cousin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Brookfield
As the story goes there was no love lost between the son Henry Brookfield who referred to him as that Communist ***ard. Searching for this Percys family met with conflicting information so this search ground to a halt.
Any assistance would be gratefully received ... even if it's simply encouragement to proceed into a thorough search as my quick look into things have revealed nothing.
Where should I go next?
Rob
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Henry Brookfield married Sophia Drummond 1887 Fitzroy, Melbourne"
Nothing registered in Victoria on my resource. Where did you find this information?
Cando
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The did not marry 1887 as in 1888 there is this birth.
DRUMMOND Alice Mary
Father unknown Mother Sophia DRUMMOND
At Carlton 1888 Reg#9682
Looks like her marriage in NSW
4038/1909
LODGE John L
BROOKFIELD Alice M
District Barmedman
and death
18042/1961
LODGE Alice Mary
Father Henry Mother Sophia
District Sydney
Either of these two birth certs would give you Henry's age, occupation and place of birth and their place of marriage. However just because it's stated they married and where and when, doesn't mean it's always accurate. It would be interesting to see who registered the births and if the dates of marriage were exactly the same.
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/family+history+certificates/purchase+an+uncertified+image
BROOKFIELD Jeanett Maud
Father Henry Mother Sophia DRUMMOND
At Fitzroy North 1889 Reg#30947
BROOKFIELD Henry
Father Henry Mother Sophia DRUMMOND
At Carlton North 1891 Reg#1705
Cando
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Or these
10998/1894
BROOKFIELD Clarace Henry/Sophia Cootamundra
20967/1896
BROOKFIELD Alexander C Henry/Sophia Cootamundra
30041/1898
BROOKFIELD Joseph Henry/Sophia Cootamundra
Cando
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His wife Sophia Drummond remarried in 1903 but that doesn't mean that he died and in fact she had a child in 1901 named Norman Brookfield (NSW BDM 21529/1901) her new husband to be was Norman Solah. The child grew up as Norman Solah. (obviously his real father).
But did she actually marry Henry BROOKFIELD ? If not then nothing preventing her marrying Norman SOLAH.
Cando
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From the NSW records
1903 Cootamundra
Sophia DRUMMOND married Norman K SOLAH
She married using the surname DRUMMOND which would suggest that she never married Henry BROOKFIELD.
As Cando has said the best option is to get the children's birth certificates.
Cheers Leonie
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Per a tree on Ancestry Henry BROOKFIELD was ba 1857 Lancashire.
The marriage date to Sophia DRUMMOND is given as 25 AUG 1887 at Fitzroy Melbourne.
Given that the researcher has listed the exact date and place of birth for the first 3 children, I would guess that the info re Henry's birth place, date of birth and marriage date has come from his children's birth certificates.
Cheers Leonie
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I haven't looked at any trees as so many don't cite sources and simply copy from other poorly researched trees.
However if 'someone' has cited a birth certificate then perhaps one of these are Henry's birth.
Births Sep 1856
BROOKFIELD Henry West Derby 8b/239
BROOKFIELD Henry West Derby 8b/259
Cando
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SMH 28 Mar 1944
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17888590?
SOLAH -March 22 1944 at Little Sisters Hospital Randwick Kallil Solah father of Norman (deceased), George, Frank and Jack and stepfather of Alice (Mrs J Lodge), Harry of Brookfield, Jean (Mrs Roberts), Alex of Brookfield, Clarice (Mrs F Lodge) and Joseph of Brookfield aged 80 years.
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Thanks all for your replies
Yes I'm pleased you deduced that they were not married cando. I had seen the birth details of "Alice Mary Drummond" before and suspected it. The fact that you have a "resource" that failed to find a marriage is the second hit. And the third hit is on her marriage to Norman Solah she claims that she is a spinster. I'm now happy to say that they never married.
Most of my info regarding actual dates I had stolen from other sites and yes it was second hand. I had no means to research VIC BDM unless I had deep pockets. The childrens births and later info I have already dug out and matched them with the families info. Your Henry Brookfield find of 1891 is my Grandfather.
I might be able to obtain a copy of this 1891 birth cert but I feel it will not reveal any details about his father that we don't already know or it's owner would have told me. (but I will check)
Now to look at cando's find of Henry Brookfield b.1856 West Derby ... Well buggar me!! Family search has a Percical Stanley Brookfield b. 1875 West Derby. The story of a cousin may be correct after all. The Wikipedia link in the earlier posting gives a birth at Wavertree which is only about a mile from West Derby.
Congrats cando you may be onto something.
Rob
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Sorry Rob
But I don't think it is that simple.
A Henry BROOKFIELD ba 1856 Liverpool (which is covered by West Derby Dist) is shown on the census 1861 through to 1911. Your Henry BROOKFIELD was in Melbourne by 1887/1888.
West Derby covers a large area and there are many BROOKFIELD's on the free BMD.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl (http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)
Cheers Leonie
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There were two born in the quarter in 1856.
Cando
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Hi,
There were two Henry Brookfield persons in the 1892 Melbourne Sands Directory.
Henry Brookfield, 100 Fenwick St, N Carl.
Henry Brookfield, 54 Kerr St, F.
Gerry
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Things are never as easy as they seem to be.
"C more" says that a Henry Brookfield b. 1856 Liverpool was still showing in the local census till 1911 and "Cando" says there were two born in the quarter of 1856. It still looks possible that one made their way to Australia.
I have already started to search church records to try to put families together but there are many churches. I am only looking at Catholic churches at present.
Aussie1947 states that there were two Henry Brookfields in the 1892 Sands Directory. I believe that it is a double entry because the family had moved.
The "100 Fenwick St, N Carl." would be where son Henry Brookfield was born (2 Mar 1891 Nth Carlton) & "54 Kerr St, F." I presume was Fitzroy was where daughter Jeanett Maud Brookfield was born Aug 1889.
This does seem to fit together allowing time for Sands to do research & print. I have also found double entries in the Sydney Sands Dir so I may be over confident with my comment.
It is nice though to have the address of where my grandfather was probably born.
Rob
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Sorry Cando but I have checked the original and there is only one Henry BROOKFIELD born Sep Q 1856 West Derby. The correct reference number is 259. 239 is a transcription error.
Using church records, combined with the census records is the best way to sort out which family is which.
Cheers Leonie
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Yes noticed that and I am on the track of another BROOKFIELD family as Cuthbert's [father of Percival] father was born Shropshire and unless someone has either of those Vic birth regs, how do we know when and where the father was born, and did he tell the truth about his age and place of birth?
Cando
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"....I have plenty of information on his wife...... " ie Sophia
Can you indicate what this information is please, additional to what is given / found so far here.
Might give some clue to Henry BROOKFIELD.
There is a naturalisation file for Kallil SOLAH at NAA, 1922.
Has birth dates for four children, wife is 56 years old.
At 1922...14 years at Cootamundra, 6 years at Barmedman, 10 years at Mittagong.
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Hi Wivenhoe & thanks for your interest.
My info on Sophia is that she was born 1867 in Melbourne to parents Charles Drummond & Mary Costello. Again I have no citations for this as it was pilfered from other places. Apparently she had a sister who died young.
NSW BDM 5343/1940 find of Sophia Solah d. 1940 Bowral (fathers name is Charles) I actually have a date for this as 7 Dec 1939 so apparently it took a month or so to actually be registered.
Buried in Welby General Cemetery, NSW. Her headstone says she was 75 which indicates a birth year of abt 1864. I have photos.
7 Jun 1918 on son Normans Army Enlistment she was living Berrima Road Mittagong.
As for Killil Solar ... There was some kind of scare where residents from certain countries had to be listed on a particular roll ... Can't remember the details of it so Killil and his entire family are found on that list. Possibly the naturalisation was a result of that.
From the years you mention Sophia would have been born ABT 1866.
Yes Sophia had an additional 4 children to Killil 1901, 1903, 1905 & 1906 all born Cootamundra. The 1901 birth (21529/1901) was out of wedlock and was under her previous partners name of Brookfield. All future finds are in the name of Norman Solar.
Working on your years it appears that Killil arrived in Cootamundra 1892 which roughly means he arrived in the town about the same time as Henry & Sophia. Possibly just before. Killil & Sophia would have left for Barmedman just after their last child was born in 1906 & staying until 1912.
Rob
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I would be getting one of these earlier birth certs as it is more likely that Henry was actually still around.
Either of these two birth certs would give you Henry's age, occupation and place of birth and their place of marriage. However just because it's stated they married and where and when, doesn't mean it's always accurate. It would be interesting to see who registered the births and if the dates of marriage were exactly the same.
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/family+history+certificates/purchase+an+uncertified+image
BROOKFIELD Jeanett Maud
Father Henry Mother Sophia DRUMMOND
At Fitzroy North 1889 Reg#30947
BROOKFIELD Henry
Father Henry Mother Sophia DRUMMOND
At Carlton North 1891 Reg#1705
Cando
Besides confirming his place of birth it will give his occupation and if it something more unusual than just 'labourer' it could greatly help your search.
I might be able to obtain a copy of this 1891 birth cert but I feel it will not reveal any details about his father that we don't already know or it's owner would have told me. (but I will check)
Rob
Perhaps do this first and also ask who registered the birth.
Sophia's daughter Jeannette had an illegitimate son in 1908 named Joseph O'Rourke BROOKFIELD. I see from family trees on Ancestry that he apparently later went by the name of Reginald ROBERTS (the surname of the man she later married).
From the Police Gazette 3 June 1908
Wyalong - A warrant has been issued by the Wyalong Bench for the arrest of Joseph O'ROURKE charged with failing to make adequate provisions for the payment of preliminary expenses of and incidental to and immediately suceeding the birth of an infant. He is 27 years of age, 5 feet 8 inches high, medium build, dark hair, fair moustache; dressed in a grey suit and a grey felt hat with a white band; a travelling tea agent for Edwards & Co., Sydney. Complainant Jeannie BROOKFIELD, Barmedman. (Since arrested)
Debra :)
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Hi
I'm distantly related to the Henry Brookfield born in the West Derby Registration District in 1856. I can confirm that he remained in England and that those Brookfields related to him lived mainly in the West Derby and Toxteth Park areas (now in Liverpool). We are not related to Percival Stanley Brookfield (1875-1921) whose family lived in the Aigburth area (now in Liverpool) these Brookfields came originally from Shropshire not Lancashire. Our Brookfields have deep Lancashire roots.
It's possible that the Henry Brookfield being researched here was already married. This would explain the couple in Australia not getting married. I'm struggling to find a death index for the Henry Brookfield born in 1859 in the Ormskirk district he was married with children on the 1881 Census (transcribed as Burkfield) then his wife is a widow in 1891 so he should have died between 1881 and 1891 but the absence of a death index is intriguing. Can anyone find it? Here is this family in 1881:-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQX7-DWL
Blue
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Thank you Blue70 for your knowledge into the West Derby Brookfields. Does your researched area also include Liverpool back around the mid 1800's?
The reason I ask is because Percival Brookfield (not of your line) was apparently recorded as a birth at West Derby even though his parents line was from Shropshire. I can't help but wonder if other sides of his Brookfield line were there also and for how long. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Brookfield
Your thought that my Henry Brookfield may have already been married is interesting. Since we cannot find his death information I wonder if he returned to England and Sophia told his children that he had died? If family information is correct he travelled to Africa and returned a few years later with that gem in the handle of his walking stick. So did he have a little money saved or since Percival travelled out here as Crew on a ship so it is also possible that Henry used the same mode of transport.
... So what do I have left to research .... I still have to obtain a copy of one of his childrens birth records and I will have to get my head deeply into researching our shipping records .... Despite my quick search he has to be there!!
I could also research the family of Percival to find the siblings of his father Cuthbert Brookfield and try to come back down to see if there is a Henry.
This leaves the question that Blue posted ... Is my Henry Brookfield his missing Henry Burkfield??? What a great question as it is rather possible because we do not know the age of my Henry Brookfield. The answer rests with me finding a copy of his childrens birth record to see what is actually entered.
Thank you all for your input and thoughts, it is so appreciated.
Rob
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I've researched my group of Brookfields back to the 1700s. They are a distinct group as they were Catholics and appear in the vicinity of the village of West Derby on the RC census of 1767 known as the 'Returns of Papists'. There is a record of a Margaret Brookfield in nearby Knowsley in 1643 having land taken off her for being a Catholic so I suspect she will be related to my Brookfields. My Brookfields moved to Toxteth c1770s.
I've noticed a lot of Brookfields who lived in the North Meols/Churchtown area near to Southport. Some of these people moved to Liverpool/Toxteth. For example Felix Brookfield baptised at North Meols C of E on 15 Sep 1805. He married at Halsall in 1829. Eventually moved from Aughton to Toxteth c1840s. Baptisms show them to be C of E.
A third grouping centre on the Aigburth/Garston area. This is Percy Brookfield's family Ancestry has trees that have a lot of information about this family. They baptised their children as C of E and came to Lancashire from Shropshire. Percy's birth was registered in the West Derby district but his birth was recorded as being at Mossley Vale and he was baptised at St Anne's C of E Aigburth. Here is a map showing Mossley Vale with Aigburth to the south:-
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344123#zoom=5&lat=7266&lon=10441&layers=BT
Collect any Australian records that may help you with your Henry's place of birth. I don't think he will be related to Percy. It might turn out that it was a joke comment claiming Percy as a cousin because of the same surname.
Blue
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The Henry Brookfield whose birth was registered in 1859 in Ormskirk district and who was born in Churchtown married Alice Howard in 1877. He was the son of John Brookfield born North Meols bc1825 and Catherine Rimmer born North Meols bc1827. These children were born to Alice it's possible the children with the name Comstive (a surname that appears in the local parish records) were born to a different father. If we were to assume that Henry left the family and Alice pretended to be a widow for the census records then Henry may have left between the birth of Catherine in 1881 and the birth of William Comstive Brookfield in 1884:-
John J Brookfield born 1877
Alice Brookfield born 1878 or 1879
Catherine Brookfield born 1881
William Comstive Brookfield born 1884
Mary Comstive Brookfield born 1886
Blue
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Thanks Blue
At this point all we have established is that there is no likely trace of a Henry Brookfield birth centered around the Liverpool region.
Since his Australian wife was born 1867 I imagine that Henrys birth would have been anywhere back to 15yrs earlier (Depending on how well off he was it seems) so I should be looking for a birth of around 1860 with an allowance of 7 years either side.
Still no reply to my request for birth record for my grandfather so I'll make a phone call today.
I have planned to spend Monday at our NSW State Records where I can lean on their experts whilst I delve into our shipping records. Since everybody came here by ships of one kind or another so there will be a record somewhere. It is just a little confusing.
My previous quick search found 3 convict Brookfields but none of them it appears fathered our Henry so I'll put convicts on the last place to search again list. That leaves me with Assisted Immigrants and Free Settlers. Other settlers were the Troopers and the odd Shipping Crew member.
So with this said I'll be back mid next week hopefully with some new information.
Have a good weekend
Rob
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One last comment. Churchtown and North Meols are not far from Liverpool quite convenient for anyone wanting to emigrate in the 19th century:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Churchtown,+Southport,+Merseyside/@53.559883,-2.7033099,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x487b3f03d5ff0a57:0x261062bd5f9fada2
Good luck with your research,
Blue
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Hi, Rob,
It has been a long time since you posted about Henry Brookfield, so can't be sure you are still in contact this way, and will even receive this. I gather from your post that you are descended from Henry's son Henry Brookfield b 1891. I am descended from Henry's older sister Alice b 1887.
If you are still interested perhaps you could get in contact and we can compare notes and source documents on our errant bricklaying ancestor....yes we had separately come to the same conclusions about Henry, and I never did find out either what became of him.
Cheers
Karen
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As a new member, I need to make 3 posts to be able to send a personal message.
I also have information on Charles Drummond and the Drummond family, Sophia's parents.
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Henry Brookfield - I am intrigued by the story about the cane with the gem in the top - this is a story that we also have heard (but never heard about the gem). Also the story of him having been to South Africa, or gone there.
These family stories are so helpful, especially when they are separately verified.
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Hi
I'm distantly related to the Henry Brookfield born in the West Derby Registration District in 1856. I can confirm that he remained in England and that those Brookfields related to him lived mainly in the West Derby and Toxteth Park areas (now in Liverpool). We are not related to Percival Stanley Brookfield (1875-1921) whose family lived in the Aigburth area (now in Liverpool) these Brookfields came originally from Shropshire not Lancashire. Our Brookfields have deep Lancashire roots.
It's possible that the Henry Brookfield being researched here was already married. This would explain the couple in Australia not getting married. I'm struggling to find a death index for the Henry Brookfield born in 1859 in the Ormskirk district he was married with children on the 1881 Census (transcribed as Burkfield) then his wife is a widow in 1891 so he should have died between 1881 and 1891 but the absence of a death index is intriguing. Can anyone find it? Here is this family in 1881:-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQX7-DWL
Blue
Link updated:-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-1C7Y
Blue
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Hi, Rob,
It has been a long time since you posted about Henry Brookfield, so can't be sure you are still in contact this way, and will even receive this. I gather from your post that you are descended from Henry's son Henry Brookfield b 1891. I am descended from Henry's older sister Alice b 1887.
If you are still interested perhaps you could get in contact and we can compare notes and source documents on our errant bricklaying ancestor....yes we had separately come to the same conclusions about Henry, and I never did find out either what became of him.
Cheers
Karen
Is there evidence of him being a bricklayer in Australia? If so then look at the Henry Brookfield I have suggested as a possible candidate for him. He was a bricklayer in England in 1881 and later disappears from the family with no sign of a death record.
Blue
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Hi, Blue,
Yes, there is evidence of Henry having been a bricklayer, on birth registrations here in Australia for 2nd and 3rd children Jean and Henry, and also in an 1889 Rate Book in Melbourne.
DNA evidence also points to Henry Brookfield b 1859 in Churchtown to John Brookfield and Catherine Rimmer as being correct.
There was similar speculation in our own family of him having been related to Percy Brookfield, the politician from Broken Hill who was murdered in South Australia. When I researched Henry 1859's immediate family, I had come to a similar conclusion, that Percy and Henry were not related.
Percy was however the great nephew of John Orlando Brookfield, who was a miner on the Bendigo goldfields.
Cheers
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Hi, Blue,
Yes, there is evidence of Henry having been a bricklayer, on birth registrations here in Australia for 2nd and 3rd children Jean and Henry, and also in an 1889 Rate Book in Melbourne.
DNA evidence also points to Henry Brookfield b 1859 in Churchtown to John Brookfield and Catherine Rimmer as being correct.
There was similar speculation in our own family of him having been related to Percy Brookfield, the politician from Broken Hill who was murdered in South Australia. When I researched Henry 1859's immediate family, I had come to a similar conclusion, that Percy and Henry were not related.
Percy was however the great nephew of John Orlando Brookfield, who was a miner on the Bendigo goldfields.
Cheers
That's great that you have confirmed Henry Brookfield, bricklayer, born 1859 (Ormskirk registration district), son of John Brookfield & Catherine Rimmer as your Henry Brookfield. I was in e-mail contact with Rob in 2015 about this enquiry. He thought initially his Henry was the one born in Toxteth, Liverpool (West Derby registration district) in 1856. Your branch of Brookfields are not part of my tree any link would probably be in the very distant past. You might now be in message contact with Rob as I see he is still active on here.
Blue
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Hello, Rob,
I have now been able to confirm Henry Brookfield back in Lancashire through DNA, and also know what happened to him in Australia after he disappeared off the scene. If you are still interested, please message back.
Kansted
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This has been a very interesting post lasting over 3 years.
Kansted has emailed me to inform that she has DNA evidence that prove who is who.
I thank all those who have participated in breaking down this brick wall and either I or Kansted will post the final findings here for future reference.
Kindest regards to all, Rob
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Was Henry the son of Robert and Ruth (née Hornby) if so most of the family settled around Rockhampton in Qld