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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 01:47 BST (UK)

Title: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 01:47 BST (UK)

William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey).

I am hoping someone can help me with William Campbell.

Some background.

Isabella Baillie was born 7/12/1810 NORTH LEITH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND to parents Samuel Baillie and Isabella Lawson.
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTR5-ZXX)

On 7/2/1831, a Isabella married a William Campbell in Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. Father of bride - Samuel Baillie
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY9G-54Z)
I am sure this is the same Isabella.

On 12/7/1831 a child Isabella was born in Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland to William and Isabella Campbell.
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRQ-C5T)

On 12/3/1839 a child Isabella Campbell was baptised in Hobart to parents Isabella and William Campbell. William's occupation is 'Baker'
Isabella Campbell's date of birth was 4/7/1831. NOTE; This is 7 1/2 years after the child was born and 5 years after Isabella re-married Robert Herbertson (see below)
(http://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fNAME_INDEXES$002f0$002fNAME_INDEXES:1087092/one).

A Mr. Campbell, Mrs. Campbell and child arrived in Hobart 12/11/1832 aboard the 'North Briton' from Leith, Scotland.
(per Ancestry)

However;

A Isabella Bailey married Robert Herbertson in Launceston on the 18th of March 1834. Her death certificate gives her mother's name as Isabella and the father's name is not stated. Rego. No. 6206
Family history handed down has her father as Samuel Bailey and her mother Isabella Lawson.

So, how do I know that the Isabella that married Robert Herbertson is the same one that married William Campbell?

I have a copy of a letter written to Robert Herbertson jnr. (son of Isabella and Robert) by an Isabella Overend on 30/5/1882 (I am sure this has been mis-dated. Isabella died in May 1883) saying how sad she was to hear of the death of her mother - Isabella Herbertson. She mentions her husband James and a son Richard. Isabella Overend was living in Charters Towers Queensland at that time.

So, looking for a marriage of an Isabella to James Overend I come up with; James Overend married Isabella Campbell in 1856 in Victoria. Reg. No. 3423. They had a son, Richard in 1863 Rego. No. 942

Isabella Overend died 5/12/1913 in Queensland. Father's name; William Campbell, Mother's name; Isabella Martha.

So, what I would like to know is what happened to William Campbell?

I have had a look through Trove and can't find a William Campbell, baker, in Hobart between 1832 and 1839.
I cannot find a death that looks like him.

Any help appreciated.

Rickey

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 12 May 15 02:05 BST (UK)

"So, how do I know that the Isabella that married Robert Herbertson is the same one that married William Campbell?"

She isn't. That Isabella was a spinster and she wouldn't be marrying in 1834 and then having a child in 1839 with the man she married in Scotland in 1831.  Need to improve my comprehension skills  :-[

http://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD36-1-2p151j2k

Are you researching Robert HERBERTSON and Isabella BAILEY?  How have you connected William CAMPBELL to this couple?

Debra  :)

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 02:11 BST (UK)

Debra, the child was born in Scotland in 4/7/1831 but not baptised until 1839. I have connected Isabella Baillie, Campbell, Herbertson based on the letter by Isabella Overend written on the death of her mother. I can post a copy of that letter if you like.

I have no idea why, when she married Robert Herbertson, she was listed as a spinster and under her maiden name.

Yes I am researching Robert Herbertson

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 12 May 15 02:18 BST (UK)

Yes, I see now what you are getting at.

Do you have the OVEREND/CAMPBELL marriage cert?  What details does Isabella give for her age, place of birth and parents' names?  Witnesses?

Finding a specific William CAMPBELL won't be easy but at least you have his occupation.

Debra  :)

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 02:35 BST (UK)

I now have the marriage certificate of Isabella Campbell to James Overend.

Details;
Married 23rd October 1856 - Church of England (can't make out the place name)
Isabella aged 23 born in Edinburgh.

Father William D Campbell Confectioner
Mother Isabella Bailey

Witnesses ? Overend and ? Jane Dywson?

Let me know if you need anything more. At least now we have a second initial and a different occupation.

Interesting on her baptism that it was in Hobart. Robert and Isabella Herbertson were living in Launceston at that time.  Also note that the baptism was in the Wesley Church. All a bit strange I reckon.

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 12 May 15 06:05 BST (UK)

Can you please list all of the information on the death certificate 1883 for Isabella HERBERTSON.

Isabella b. 1831, daughter of Isabella - on her marriage certificate how does this younger Isabella name her parents and birthplace.

On her death certificate how are her years in the colonies recorded?

These two events - might not relate to your CAMPBELL family.

* On 12/3/1839 a child Isabella Campbell was baptised in Hobart to parents Isabella and William Campbell. William's occupation is 'Baker'

* A Mr. Campbell, Mrs. Campbell and child arrived in Hobart 12/11/1832 aboard the 'North Briton' from Leith, Scotland.

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 12 May 15 06:20 BST (UK)

Depending on who the informant was when Isabella Snr. died, her death cert should list each marriage and the children from each of those marriages.

The Wills for Robert and Isabella HERBERTSON (indexed with the wrong year) make interesting reading.  Robert does not acknowledge the daughter Isabella at all and Isabella Snr. leaves everything equally to her children, but specifically excepts her son Robert.

http://prov.vic.gov.au/research/wills-and-probate

If Isabella had been abandoned by William CAMPBELL and she didn't know where he was or whether he was still alive, it is possible that she simply decided to marry as a spinster to overcome the difficulties of remarrying so soon.  I don't think a parish priest would have agreed to perform the marriage if he knew that the first husband had been absent for such a short period of time.

Do you have any idea of the names of William CAMPBELL's parents?

Debra  :)

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: majm on Tuesday 12 May 15 06:51 BST (UK)

Hi,

May I agree  :) , very unlikely re a second marriage without some proof of widowhood.   Divorce was not legislated in Tasmania until 1860.   http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html 

So we are looking for William Campbell's fate.   Perhaps he had left VDL  ... is he listed here? http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/tasmaniasheritage/search/guides/arrivals-and-departures

Where would he go to if not returning 'home' ? ships out of Hobart were on voyages to  NZ, NSW, South Africa, Chile, the South Sea Islands, and other places listed on shipping lists, so I think of
Trove http://trove.nla.gov.au/
and also
ferguson papers (not as user friendly as Trove, pdfs etc) https://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/datebrowse.html

Tasmania cemetery records
http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/tasmaniasheritage/search/guides/cemetery-records

Cheers,  JM

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 07:22 BST (UK)

Wivenhoe, as above

"I now have the marriage certificate of Isabella Campbell to James Overend.

Details;
Married 23rd October 1856 - Church of England (can't make out the place name) - think it is Pentridge ;-)

Isabella aged 23 born in Edinburgh.

Father William D Campbell Confectioner
Mother Isabella Bailey"

Given these details, I think it is reasonable to assume that this record

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRQ-C5T

is the birth of Isabella?

And that this is her baptism

http://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fNAME_INDEXES$002f0$002fNAME_INDEXES:1087092/one

Dates of birth differ by a couple of weeks.

I agree there is no definitive proof that the Mr and Mrs Campbell arriving from Leith in 1832 are the parents of Isabella Campbell, but the time frame certainly suits.

I do not have the death certificate of Isabella Herbertson. I do have her probate documents though and it apparent that she changed her will on her death bed to include her son Robert. (That is another story which I prefer we don't go into. Very easy to get side-tracked)

I have a Mr. Campbell leaving for NZ in July 1833

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4191803

but who knows if it is him.

I will purchase Isabella Herbertson's death certificate after I get the washing in - about to pour here.

I think it useful if I post the letter from Isabella Overend (Campbell). She was certainly familiar with the family although it seems was estranged at the time of her mother's death.

Thanks for looking at this for me. It certainly isn't easy to work out.

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 07:40 BST (UK)

I now have the death certificate for Isabella Herbertson nee Bailey (it's only money)

Lo and behold it does list Isabella as one of her children aged 48 in 1883. Informant was the son Robert (to who Isabella Overend wrote shortly after Isabella Herbertson died). Only one marriage listed to Robert (snr) in Tasmania. Date of marriage not known.

Father's name; not known, but he was a soldier.
Mother's name; Isabella Bailey - maiden name not known.

Born in Edinburgh, 42 years in Victoria. I have verified that they arrived in Portland Victoria in 1841.

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 07:59 BST (UK)

Letter from Isabella Overend to Robert Herbertson jnr. Obviously acquainted with the family.

So, I think it is fair to say that Isabella Bailey married William Campbell (1) and then Robert Herbertson (2)??

So, the question remains, what happened to William Campbell?

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 12 May 15 08:08 BST (UK)

Thank you for scanning the letter.

Can you please list all the information on the death certificate 1883 please.

I am not surprised to see Isabella listed as a daughter, but it is all the details that are useful to work with.

My reservation about the christening record is that it is not recorded by the minister.

All entries on the page are in the one writing, so likely transcribed from.......what?........writing on a piece of paper?  The last digit on 1831 might not be accurate.

 

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Tuesday 12 May 15 08:17 BST (UK)

Wivenhoe, I'm not sure what specific information you are wanting from the death certificate other than what I have already given.

If you can let me know I will post it.

I see what you mean about the baptism record but the date of birth and parent's names do seem to correlate to this record https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRQ-C5T (date of birth a bit out).

I don't know where the record comes from. Regardless though, Isabella Overend nee Campbell seems to be a daughter of Isabella Herbertson.

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Wednesday 13 May 15 00:21 BST (UK)

Not sure if this helps but I have detailed the ages of Isabella's children as at her date of death and compared them to the 'actual' year of birth. Janet is the only one with a recorded date of birth. Notice that Isabella's age of 48 makes her born in 1835. Isabella Bailey and Robert Herbertson were married in 1834. Has there been some 'fudging' going on here? Janet's age has is also a bit out maybe to because of adjustments to Isabella's age.

Could be just simple errors though.

Name	Age at Isabella's Death (1883)	Calculated Year of Birth	Actual Year of Birth
Isabella	48	1835	1831 (Baptism Record)
Janet	46	1837	1835 (Baptism Record)*
Mary	44	1839	1839 (age at death)
James	decd
Robert	40	1843	1843 (age at death)
Sarah	38	1845	1844 (age at death)
Eliza	35	1848	1849 (age at death)
Georgina	decd
Thomas	30	1853	1852  (age at death)
Samuel	28	1855	1853 (age at death)

* http://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fNAME_INDEXES$002f0$002fNAME_INDEXES:1084200/one
(NOTE: Father's name recorded as David Herbertson - presumably a transcription error)

I'm away from the computer for the next few days.

Hope you can help me sort this out.

Rickey

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: TasTyger on Wednesday 13 May 15 00:50 BST (UK)

Re the arrival of the North Briton from Leith to VDL 12 Nov.1832, Ancestry has the passenger list for this voyage and in the steerage section are listed - Mr Wm Campbell, Mrs Campbell & child.

Cheers,

Peter

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 20 May 15 09:26 BST (UK)

For these events, have you looked for images of the church records on Scotlandspeople site?

*Isabella Baillie b.7/12/1810 NORTH LEITH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
parents Samuel Baillie and Isabella Lawson.

*7/2/1831, Isabella m. William Campbell in Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. Father of bride - Samuel Baillie

*12/7/1831 Isabella b.in Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
to William and Isabella Campbell.

*......... her father as Samuel Bailey and her mother Isabella Lawson. (a marriage record)

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Friday 22 May 15 23:53 BST (UK)

Thanks Wivenhoe, I had not looked there - I will think about. Costs are mounting up.

I have now a copy of the actual Baptismal Record from the register at the church in Hobart and the details I previously provided are correct.

Born 4/7/1831, Baptised 12/3/1839.

So I think the question still remains, what happened to William Campbell, and why did Isabella Bailey re-marry under her maiden name and as a spinster.

Rickey

Title: Re: William Campbell and Isabella Baillie (Bailey). Tasmania
Post by: rickeyh on Saturday 12 March 22 11:12 GMT (UK)

Just in case anyone looks at this in the future. I have worked out what happened to William Douglas Campbell.

In 1854 he marries Jane Elizabeth Lily in Brunswick near Melbourne. He does not declare his previous marriage to Isabella Bailey and declares his marital status as 'Bachelor'. Occupation 'Confectioner'.

In 1856 a son William was born in Melbourne.
His daughter Isabella marries and states her father's occupation as 'Confectioner'

In 1861 he appears in the Scotland Census with his family and also his mother in law. His occupations is stated as 'Master Confectioner'.

In 1880 he appears on the US Census. Occupation 'Confectioner'.

He died in the US in Harlan, Iowa, USA on the 17 Apr 1904.

I am certain this is  the right 'William Campbell'