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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: liverpool annie on Sunday 10 July 05 23:54 BST (UK)
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(http://photos23.flickr.com/25009249_5a0bc1a8c9_o.jpg)
This is my Granddad Cooper - South Lancs 1st battalion
Frederick Joseph Cooper b. 1871 Chorletom upon Medlock
Any info gratefully received
Annie
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annie,rifle brigade,and i wouldnt like to get on the wrong side of that bloke,mack
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annie,i think your g/father joined up using only the name frederick cooper
sergeant.frederick cooper
rifle brigade
s3349
hes the only sergeant frederick cooper,rifle brigade,in the medal rolls
mack
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Hi Mack!
I posted the medal cards on another post - but I have no idea if either of them are pertaining to the Rifle Brigade - and I never heard the Rifle Brigade mentioned - I always thought he was Infantry!!
Annie
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annie,the rifle brigade is infantry,all those medal cards are for privates,your g/father was a sergeant,the cap badge hes wearing is the rifle brigade,mack
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Mack
So are you saying that none of those medal cards are his?
could he not have earned them as a Private?
or do they just belong to somebody else - of the same name ?
I know he had medals - but I can't remember if it was 3 or 4.......
Do I need to look for another medal card ? - I'm sure they were
the only 2 for Frederick Cooper.... Now what do I do?
Annie
PS Don't you love his waxed moustache??
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annie both pics are brilliant,the cards are made out to his rank at the time,which is a sergeant,the only sgt fred or frederick cooper in the MIC cards is the one i have posted,do you know when he left the army,mack
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Mack
OK - I know he was in the Army till the end of the War
then I think he went to Warrington -
and I think he was a quartermaster ??? but I'm not sure about that...
I believe he was in Liverpool around 1923
Annie
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(http://photos22.flickr.com/25090075_46b4569195.jpg)
This is a photo ( a bad photo) of my Dad in the same regiment but his uniform is very different!!
Can anybody see the badge??
Annie
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Hi
I have a question....
Is the Rifle Brigade a different regiment than the South Lancs - or is it just a branch of that regiment ?
Annie
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annie,your dads also in the rifle brigade,they are completely different from the south lancs,annie where did you get the south lancs from,was it another family member ,mack
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Maccck!!!!!!!
They were both in the Prince of Wales Volunteers !!!!
FOR SURE!!!!
Prince of Wales Volunteers also known as South Lancs - Frederick was in Jersey with the South Lancs at Fort Regent and my Dad was in Jubalpore (?) India - I listened to those stories for hours - I know it was POW!!
Annie
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annie,the rifle brigade was known as, the prince consorts own,rifle brigade,mack
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Mack
As you know I greatly respect your knowledge -
but in this instance - I have to say I can't agree -
having said that - I'm not saying you're wrong !!
Is there some way that they both were in the Prince of Wales Volunteers AND the Rifle Brigade ??
I find it so hard to believe that all my family history and rememberances are wrong - there was too much oral history related from my father to myself - for it ALL to have been wrong ...
Where else can I look to find out for sure ?
Annie
PS
these sites show badges and I have to say - in my opinion - that the POW looks like my Dad's!!!!!
http://www.britisharmybadges.com/images/S%20Lancs%20officer's%20beret.jpg
http://www.militarybadges.info/pages/uk/post14-1.htm
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annie,all i can tell you for sure,is that both of them are in the rifle brigade,before the war they could have served in the south lancs regt,if you post both pictures on the forum,they will tell you the same,they may have joined another regt when the war started,mack
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Mack
I don't mean to flog a dead horse but ..........!!you tell me to get census and other civvie info to validate my other soldiers - so I'm validating my Granddad!!
1891 census: Fort Regent, Jersey
Frederick Cooper, age 20, unmarried, private
Marriage 1892 in St Simon's Church, St Helier
Frederick Joseph Cooper, age 22, bachelor, soldier, resident at Fort Regent, born Manchester, father: Alfred Cooper, salesman -- to --
Amelia Louisa Margaret Muels, age 22, spinster, resident at James Street, born St Helier, Jersey, Father: John Edward Muels, painter
Witnesses - Adolphus Allin and Louisa Allin.
1901 census still living as you can see in Jersey
4 Providence St, St Helier
Ecclesiastical Parish is St James Jersey
Frederick Cooper Head 31 born Machester
Occupation - Pte South Lancs Regt
Amelia Cooper wife 31 born St Helier
Frederick Cooper son 2 born St Helier
Alice Cooper daughter 1 born St Helier
The 1st Battalion South Lancs Regiment (Prince of Wales Volunteers) was stationed at Fort Regent from 1890 - 1892, but I don't know where they went immediately afterwards. I think the Regiment went to South Africa in 1899 for the relief of Ladysmith.
Regards
Annie
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" Jul 8 2005, 10:40 PM Question to the Forum"
South Lancs (Prince of Wales Volunteers)
I'm trying to find out as much as I can about my Granddad and his regiment
Frederick Joseph Cooper b. 1971 Chorleton upon Medlock - Prince of Wales Volunteers (South Lancs) 1st Battalion
I know he was in the Boer War and he was also in WW1 in France
He was in Jersey Channel Islands at Fort Regent in 1890 but I don't know too much more! I would appreciate any help you could give me about him and the regiment I do have 2 medal cards - I'm hoping they are both his ..... !!
answer quote
" The first Battalion served with distinction in the Boer War, losing their commanding officer (Lt Col McCarthy O'Leary) whilst leading a charge at the Battle of Pieter's Hill
- From South Africa, the Battalion shipped to India, replacing the 2nd Battalion, which had being doing its turn overseas since about the mid 1880s.
- The 1st Battalion remained in India throughout the Great War. Quite a lot of officers, and a number of NCOs and rankers were transferred to other South Lancs Battalions during the war. Therefore, your Grandfather would have to have transferred to another unit to serve on the Western Front.
- On a similar subject I have read letters from men of the 1st in summer 1914, chomping at the bit for the chance to take part in the west, their enthusiasm not yet tempered by horrific casualties. They were indignant that the 'Fighting Fortieth', the senior Battalion in the regiment, was to be denied its chance whilst others more junior took part."
unquote
I have also ordered the book" Red Roses on the Veldt " to see if any of the photos in there contain Granddad during the Boer War
Annie
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annie,sorry,i have just enlarged the cap badge on your dads cap,it is the south lancs,very very sorry,mack
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Hi Mack!
I knew my Dad was right !! :D
but as to my Granddad I think - (and I'm still trying to find out... ) that he was South Lancs and he changed so he could fight in France .
In the Princess Mary Tin I used to have - was a bullet that had been shot through - my Dad said that that bullet had saved Granddads life - he had been wearing one of those bandaliers (is that what it's called?) and that would make sense if he was in the Rifle Brigade wouldn't it??
http://www.1914-1918.net/rb.htm
Which batt do you know??
Annie
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annie,now for round two,its time to check the QSA and the KSA medal rolls for ya granddad,then its time to call in my buddies in surrey,and get them to go through the records for his attestation papers,you cant do this because you have to go to kew to access them,leave that to me,i will get my buddy to dig out all he can on both your g/fathers,it may take a little time cos i dont know when hes going next,a week ago you only had your g/fathers names,and a possible regt for one of them,now you have name,rank,number,regt,civvie details etc,and not on just one of them but BOTH,thats some going,mack
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Mack can i ask you why you are certain he would be on his medal card as Sjt, what if the photo is after he was given his medals and he was made a serjeant, my grandad is on his MIC as private but was a CQMS by the time he left.
There is a card for a Frederick J Cooper private in the rifle brigade, could this not be him.
Also if he only served in WWI with the Rifle Brigade but was in the South Lancs previously would it say that on the MIC or do they only say what regiment they were in when given the medals?
Kev.
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Forget about Fred J he is on the cwgc site.
This is the card for the one you are suggesting Mack, what do you think.
Kev.
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Kev
I meant to say thank you for putting up my Granddad's medal card ! I hope this is the right one this time.... :P
Annie
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annie/kev,i reckon thats him,kev, about his pre war service,if he was out of the army and then joined up again,then his prewar regt wont be on the cards,it will only mention his regt if hes still in it,i thought about the photo and yes,he could have been promoted after the medal rolls were compiled,but i based my guess on the fact that this fella is a veteran of the SA war,and hes done at least 12yrs in the army,so he would have had at least one tape up when he re-enlisted because of his experience,but you never know kev,mack
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Sounds very logical to me Mack, i think you may well be right.
Next question!! ;D, how can we find him pre-war then presumably he would have had a different number if he left and rejoined?
What is the usual method, does Annie need to find his papers and see or is there an easier way?
Also as it says discharged on his MIC can we follow that up anywhere?
Kev.
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So....
OK you guys - tell me again - what is it I need to do or look for ?
Just tell me what to do and I'll do it!! :P
Where do I find QSA and KSA medal rolls?
http://freespace.virgin.net/anglers.rest/BWInfo.htm
I checked here - but there is no one list for British - there is for NZ and Australia but I'll just keep looking!!
Annie
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I found some photos of the South Lancs on the photo site above !!
and also on the Jersey site that has just opened up their photo archives - this is so cool - now I have to start researching again - what do I need Mack??
Annie
http://www.worldofstereoviews.com/northpage1.htm
South Lancs on route to embark - ........!!
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annie,you could ask the guys on the forum if they have the two SA medal rolls,i know some who have them for a particular regt,mack
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Annie! That was mind blowing,all three face's same as pea's in a pod,I can only hope that some fine day You get a Gong for your hard yakka!
manmack,terrific job of question and almost immediate,if not sooner,answer!
Kevwood,bit of a dark horse there Ithink,stay with it!
Cheer's ALL.Goggy.
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I got a reply from GWF - regarding the Rifle Brigade
You would need to see the Medal Rolls to determine what Battalion he was in, these are held in Kew at the Archives. I will be at Kew again probably sometime next week so I will check them for you to see which Battalion he was in.
So maybe by next week I'll have more information!! is that great or what??
Annie :P :P
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Goodonya Annie!
you could go hang gliding while waiting,that should occupy your mind?
;D
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Annie,
i have just got back from Kew and pulled your grandfathers WW1 medal rolls. He was in the 10th battalion and was also issued a silver wound badge.
All the details you need are on the GWF for you.
Andy (stiletto33853)
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ANDY!!!!
You're terrific ! - thank you so much!!
Annie
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Annie,
No problem I have researched and collected to the Rifle Brigade for years now so no biggy. If you need their war record for WW1 let me know and I will scan and send to you. That battalion is one of the few that I do not have the war diary for but in their yearly chronicles they print all the details in brief.
Andy
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Andy - I would appreciate anything you could give me!!
How cool is this! - I'm thrilled - thanks!
Annie
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Annie,
You do not seem to be able to put attachments on postings here so I can either e mail the record to you or put it on the GWF, but let me have your details and I will post the rolls and silver war badge roll of to you, all A3 size so too big to scan.
Andy
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Andy - I've sent you my stuff - and checked GWF - I'm delighted!
Thank you!
Annie
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Annie,
Glad that I could help you a little, just scanning the war record for 1915 at the moment to send to you.
Andy
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Annie,
Just one other thought, as he was discharged the army the chances of his records for WW1 surviving the blitz are a little higher, a little. Although a common surname it might be worth looking into.
If I have some spare time next time I am at Kew I will have a look but cant promise due to my own research.
Andy
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Andy!
I don't care what the rest of them say about you - you're the BEST!!!!
Annie ::)
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I'm posting what Andy found for me!!
Finally managed to get up to Kew today and pulled your Grandfathers medal roll for you. He was in the 10th Battalion of The Rifle Brigade.
10th Battalion was a service battalion formed at Winchester in September 1914 and was in the 59th Brigade of the 20th Division. According to his MIC he entered France on the 21/7/15 which was the date the 10th landed in France.
Annie,
If you look at his MIC you will find List M/1010 which means he was entitled to a Silver War Badge. Pulled this list also for you which gave me the following information: He enlisted on the 8/9/14 and was discharged on 12/4/18. His age on discharge was 47 years and 364 days old. He was issued Badge number 414,917 and was discharged under A.O.II. Paragraph II BI of 10/8/17.
Not entirely positive what this Army Order entails but I am sure that someone on the forum will know.
Isn't this great!!! :D :D :D
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Annie!!
You deserved that break,personally I'm chuffed all end's up,what a marvellous bonus.That young fella deserve's a Mar's bar for his work doesn't he?
Stay with it Kid!Goggy. ;)
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Isn't this terrific Goggy?
I'm thrilled to bits! - after all this time - FINALLY!
I'm walking around here with a permanent grin!! :D
Annie
PS I think a Mars bar falls short though - I'll have to think of something else :P :P :P
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Annie,
Whilst at Kew today I was searching for another Cooper and checked for your relations records in WO/364. Unfortunately they are not there, sorry.
Andy
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What a shame!
But Andy I'm so happy you had a look - and I really appreciate it!!
Thanks!
Annie :) :)